|
SUNKOS posted:That's the best description I've seen yet. 
|
#
?
May 30, 2019 19:48
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 5, 2024 12:16 |
|
|
Let's be honest, if they'd turned out to be walking elephant creatures like everyone had already imagined that'd be considered disappointing too. Scott basically recognized that issue(that no design for the Jockey would ever satisfy people), and decided to just run with it and make it a central theme of the movie.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2019 19:52
|
|
|
Xenomrph posted:That said, while the comic designs were dopey (although the one from the later series 'Aliens: Apocalypse' handles it somewhat better), there has been some pretty wild fan-art over the years that keeps the non-human otherworldliness and goes in some interesting directions. I'll see if I can track some down, a cursory google image search isn't bringing back the stuff I remember. These are pretty good, do you have images of all of the Space Jockey appearances in the comics? I'd like to see how various artists handled them. MonsieurChoc posted:You could have also gone the route where Space Jokeys are modified for specific purposes and so they all look very different, but with similar aesthetics. A pilot would be very different from a negotiator or soldier. So like the Space Jockey is born connected to the ship and doomed to never leave that spot and live it's miserable life there? I can get behind that because that's a dark as gently caress existence and that works for Alien. Or hell, maybe the ship IS the Space Jockey, the whole thing is just a body. Here's the thing that no one ever cares to think about to bring up about Alien and I think it's the more interesting: The Space Jockey died because of a chest burster, I want to see the Alien form that came out of that loving thing, it would be wild. But how did that happen? Did a Facehugger break out of stasis, crawl up the wall to the ceiling and then melt itself through the ceiling to get to the cockpit and facehug the Space Jockey? There's no Facehugger corpse near him though, unless it hid out of sight of the Nostromo crew. However, maybe he got facehugged before his trip not knowing what was going to happen then died in space and crash landed, but then whatever came out of him burned a hole through the floor into the giant cavern below to the eggs? Maybe it was some prototypical Queen that spawned and took up residence in the stasis chamber, laying eggs everywhere that were never going to hatch. That large area might have just been a cargo store for perishable goods and the ship might have not even been war ship.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2019 19:55
|
|
|
i think it's weird when they made the space jockeys elephants and poo poo like i said i always figured it was so alien it was one with the derelict.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2019 19:59
|
|
|
Darko posted:Your argument makes no sense. I also said there’s an alternate interpretation in which he did make it. I think that interpretation is dumb, for reasons demonstrated. As an aside, I mentioned that Ridley Scott believes the latter interpretation. That’s his prerogative. That’s got nothing to do with authorial intent, like I said. Ridley Scott is making the next movie, so his interpretation is likely to guide his storytelling for the next movie and he could double down on the implications in Covenant I didn’t like. That’s why I even mentioned Ridley Scott’s name. I feel like this is all a really easy to understand and uncontroversial opinion.  Darko posted:Even considering the what you fear or whatever is true, and David somehow is responsible for the events in Alien 1 directly: I enjoy Alien media for the Aliens. David making other, new things to replace them doesn’t fix that. If I’ve got a dog that I’ve had for years and like for it’s own qualities, and then you, in my opinion, cripple it and mentally traumatize it, handing me a new puppy doesn’t make it all better. I don’t stop loving the dog just because it’s different, but I can show displeasure in how it was treated. loving with the Alien and undoing the specific Lovecraftian tropes related to the Alien that I like, or Ridley Scott loving with the Space Jockey and undoing its similar specific Lovecraftian tropes, also doesn’t fix that. Having the Engineers look like giant humans is the problem, not their motivations. The Space Jockey looks weird and scary and otherworldly, changing them into albino humans undoes that. That’s the problem. I’m not saying what the prequels aren’t saying and doing interesting things, I’m saying that loving with the Alien movies to do it is a bad call. Again, I feel like this is a really uncontroversial opinion. Firstborn understood it, and basically expressed the same sentiments. Edit- sire, I saw your post and I’ve got content for it, but it’s on my home computer and I’m phone-posting right now. I’ll get back to it when I get home though. 
Xenomrph fucked around with this message at 20:03 on May 30, 2019 |
|
#
?
May 30, 2019 20:00
|
|
|
You ever notice there’s lots of wasted space on the Derelict? The huge chamber the space jockey is in has so much empty unused room. Get on a USS battleship and there’s very little room. Much more efficient. Or a submarine. Advance civilization my rear end.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2019 20:06
|
|
|
s.i.r.e. posted:So like the Space Jockey is born connected to the ship and doomed to never leave that spot and live it's miserable life there? I can get behind that because that's a dark as gently caress existence and that works for Alien. Or hell, maybe the ship IS the Space Jockey, the whole thing is just a body. That's something that I liked about Alien and was disappointed by when watching Prometheus, was the set design was so lazy in comparison and the chamber with the chair looked like it was made of styrofoam. Comparatively, there was much more atmosphere and character to the derelict in Alien with how the set was constructed and the walls were practically dripping with sweat and such, it was so visually superior compared to the bland hallways we got in Prometheus which didn't look remotely alien or otherwordly. It's probably one of my biggest disappointments with Prometheus, is that it just has awful visual design that looks incredibly lazy and rushed.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2019 20:15
|
|
|
Prometheus is like one of the most gorgeous and well designed movies to come out of the past decade.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2019 20:16
|
|
|
Xenomrph posted:loving with the Alien and undoing the specific Lovecraftian tropes related to the Alien that I like, or Ridley Scott loving with the Space Jockey and undoing its similar specific Lovecraftian tropes, also doesn’t fix that. As someone who's tried pushing through Lovecraft's work (I have book of all his published works that I just couldn't finish), I can't speak as an expert but does Alien really fit the Lovecraft bill? The stories I read were dealing with how fragile the human mind is and how it breaks when presented with things it wasn't meant to comprehend. Insanity doesn't play a big part in Alien, and Alien is more of a physical thing, because the unknowns in Alien will just kill you and end your physical body but the unknowns in Lovecraft's work seemed to gently caress with your mental state since they only kind of exist in our physical plane of existence, are indescribable with no words that exist to actually define their shapes. Anyone with a good grasp of Lovecraft and read most of his work, does Alien really apply? Xenomrph posted:Edit- sire, I saw your post and I’ve got content for it, but it’s on my home computer and I’m phone-posting right now. I’ll get back to it when I get home though. Awesome, I look forward to it!
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2019 20:17
|
|
|
SUNKOS posted:That's something that I liked about Alien and was disappointed by when watching Prometheus, was the set design was so lazy in comparison and the chamber with the chair looked like it was made of styrofoam. Comparatively, there was much more atmosphere and character to the derelict in Alien with how the set was constructed and the walls were practically dripping with sweat and such, it was so visually superior compared to the bland hallways we got in Prometheus which didn't look remotely alien or otherwordly. It's probably one of my biggest disappointments with Prometheus, is that it just has awful visual design that looks incredibly lazy and rushed. To each their own but you're really in the minority there. Even the most extreme Prometheus haters tend to agree that it's a beautiful film visually.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2019 20:21
|
|
|
Xenomrph posted:No, like I said, I interpret it as David not making the Alien, full stop. The way you're saying it is messing with my brain. "I don't like they did this thing with the Alien" okay, fair. "I find Ridley Scott's interpretation of these events to be false" is odd. He made the movie. He isn't some fanboy sitting on his computer typing a fan fiction. He's a filmmaker who wanted to tell a story he found interesting. He's not "believing" anything. He's creating. It's just an odd way to look at films.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2019 20:21
|
|
|
That’s something you’re going to have to take up with Darko, I was going out of my way to steer clear of authorial intent or even implying that it’s a factor in my post because even uttering Ridley Scott’s name seemed to trigger him.  That said, ignoring Ridley Scott’s intent is fine. There’s more than one way to interpret how Covenant plays out, regardless of Ridley Scott. Similarly, I don’t think Deckard is a replicant. I feel it makes for a much more interesting and thought provoking dynamic between Deckard and Batty if Deckard is human. Ridley Scott thinks I’m wrong, and that’s okay. Xenomrph fucked around with this message at 20:30 on May 30, 2019 |
|
#
?
May 30, 2019 20:27
|
|
|
it's just using belief and interpretation is just an odd way to say you don't jive with a movie
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2019 20:29
|
|
|
Is the 90’s toy line canon? But seriously, are there ninjas who know how to cut Alien limbs without being sprayed by acid in the rpg?
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2019 20:30
|
|
|
Basebf555 posted:People were definitely saying at the time when Prometheus was released that it was more of a spiritual sequel to Blade Runner than a real Alien sequel. Firstborn posted:I have a similar feeling with predator, where I like the first movie that doesn't try to explain too much, and I like the "expanded universe" poo poo that turns them into redneck samurai. I now want: Serpico, but Predators. s.i.r.e. posted:Or hell, maybe the ship IS the Space Jockey, the whole thing is just a body. s.i.r.e. posted:That large area might have just been a cargo store for perishable goods and the ship might have not even been war ship.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2019 20:32
|
|
|
CelticPredator posted:it's just using belief and interpretation is just an odd way to say you don't jive with a movie I think "interpretation" is not totally inappropriate when you consider that Scott was returning to a franchise that he hadn't touched for multiple decades. You're not even the same person after that many years, so I think what he did in making Prometheus could definitely be called an interpretation of his past work in Alien. I imagine he's had many, many ideas kicking around in his head at various points through the years and what we got in Prometheus is just one of them.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2019 20:33
|
|
|
CelticPredator posted:"I find Ridley Scott's interpretation of these events to be false" bladerunner.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2019 20:39
|
|
|
Yeah but no one came out in the films and said Deckard was a Replicant. in 2049 they kept it ambiguous. Ridley can say whatever he wants, but if the film isn't explicitly saying it, then you can think however you want.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2019 20:41
|
|
|
CelticPredator posted:Yeah but no one came out in the films and said Deckard was a Replicant. in 2049 they kept it ambiguous. Ridley can say whatever he wants, but if the film isn't explicitly saying it, then you can think however you want. See you deleted that second line because you knew it wasn't correct. I caught you!
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2019 20:42
|
|
|
CelticPredator posted:Yeah but no one came out in the films and said Deckard was a Replicant. in 2049 they kept it ambiguous. Ridley can say whatever he wants, but if the film isn't explicitly saying it, then you can think however you want. but i would say his interpretation is false. it not only makes no sense in the film as shown but it makes the film weaker. i missed 2047 in theatres because i had read that it confirmed deckard as a replicant. kicked myself when i saw it later on.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2019 20:44
|
|
|
Blade Runner is tricky because of how prominent the Final Cut has become. In the Final Cut, it's pretty explicit that he's a replicant but if you choose to ignore that version, I guess you can.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2019 20:47
|
|
|
Fish Noise posted:Mistake not the rider for the steed? I now also want: an entire ship bursting open and the resulting giant alien having FTL drives. That would own. Basebf555 posted:Blade Runner is tricky because of how prominent the Final Cut has become. In the Final Cut, it's pretty explicit that he's a replicant but if you choose to ignore that version, I guess you can. In what way? I only watch the Final Cut but I have seen some of the others long ago but I don't remember them all that well. Everyone always points to Gaff's unicorn calling card as the "Deckard is a replicant." Which I don't understand. Also, 2049 basically retcons Deckard being a replicant anyway because he actually lives long as gently caress which, according to both films isn't a thing that replicants can do because humans haven't figured that part out yet. Isn't Blade Runner also part of the Alien universe according to Scott? Have there been ties among the two series that kinda confirm or hint at it?
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2019 21:01
|
|
|
Basebf555 posted:See you deleted that second line because you knew it wasn't correct. I caught you! Your interpretation is rear end because I deleted it because I didn’t want to get needlessly argumentative. I’ll put it back though. David created the alien. This is in the film and it is fact. You may not like it. But there isn’t anything stated in the film to suggest otherwise.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2019 21:01
|
|
|
Basebf555 posted:Blade Runner is tricky because of how prominent the Final Cut has become. In the Final Cut, it's pretty explicit that he's a replicant but if you choose to ignore that version, I guess you can. I find multiple cuts of movies like that to be an interesting beast, especially when you have versions that are explicitly contradictory (Alien3) or introduce elements that sorta complicate things even if it’s not totally incompatible. The reason James Cameron felt he could get away with introducing the Alien Queen in his movie was specifically because the eggmorphing stuff from ‘Alien’ was on the cutting room floor - he got asked about it point-blank and said something to the effect of “it’s not in the movie, so it doesn’t exist, so the Queen is a viable concept.” But now there is a version of the movie with the eggmorphing integrated. It’s not irreconcilable with the Queen, so I don’t think it matters. My headcanon is that all of the versions of all of the movies are “true”, but it’s a sort of unreliable narrator situation. Was the Alien in the third movie born from a dog or an ox? Well we don’t really know, there’s conflicting reports. CelticPredator posted:Yeah but no one came out in the films and said Deckard was a Replicant. in 2049 they kept it ambiguous. Ridley can say whatever he wants, but if the film isn't explicitly saying it, then you can think however you want. However, independent of his intent, ‘Alien’ still exists - and if the Derelict is as old as it’s implied to be, David couldn’t have invented the Alien (even if he thinks he did, and since he doesn’t know about the Derelict, he has every reason to believe he did). Which one is “correct”? That’s up to you to decide. Open Marriage Night posted:Is the 90’s toy line canon? The 90s toyline is absolutely part of my headcanon.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2019 21:04
|
|
|
s.i.r.e. posted:That would own. In 2049 it's stated that Nexus 8s have open ended life spans, it's possible Deckard was a Nexus 8. Anyway, the unicorn thing makes it clear that Gaff has access to or has already seen Deckard's dreams. Probably because they're false, implanted memories. CelticPredator posted:I'll put it back though. David created the alien. This is in the film and it is fact. You may not like it. But there isn’t anything stated in the film to suggest otherwise. He created an alien, there is nothing in the film that suggests he's the first to create one or that he is directly involved with the derelict that ends up on LV-426. Basebf555 fucked around with this message at 21:07 on May 30, 2019 |
|
#
?
May 30, 2019 21:04
|
|
|
Canon sucks and should be shot.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2019 21:07
|
|
|
i only saw covenant the once in theatres why isn't it that david created THE alien? it doesn't make any sense but what i took away from the movie is he is the daddy of the aliens.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2019 21:07
|
|
|
Groovelord Neato posted:i only saw covenant the once in theatres why isn't it that david created THE alien? it doesn't make any sense but what i took away from the movie is he is the daddy of the aliens. That’s what the film is saying yes. But fans don’t like it so they’re being weird about it, instead saying it’s just stupid and moving on.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2019 21:09
|
|
|
Groovelord Neato posted:i only saw covenant the once in theatres why isn't it that david created THE alien? it doesn't make any sense but what i took away from the movie is he is the daddy of the aliens. If I gave you the ingredients to make a cake and you had no idea how but you eventually figured it out by trial and error, would you say that you'd invented the cake?
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2019 21:10
|
|
|
It’s a story, not a historical event.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2019 21:12
|
|
|
CelticPredator posted:It’s a story, not a historical event. And the story depicts David creating a xeno through experimentation. Nothing more nothing less.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2019 21:17
|
|
|
CelticPredator posted:The way you're saying it is messing with my brain. Not to put words in someone else's mouth, but I think he's making a death of the author argument, where the interpretation of the artist/author is not any more valid than that of those who view the art. Anyway I hate Prometheus and Covenant, not because of their content, but for spawning these endless arguments about canon.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2019 21:43
|
|
|
Fish Noise posted:Alien: a story about someone leaving their lunch in the fridge for way too long Isn't that an episode of Cowboy Bebop?
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2019 21:52
|
|
|
Basebf555 posted:In 2049 it's stated that Nexus 8s have open ended life spans, it's possible Deckard was a Nexus 8. But that wouldn't make any sense; if you're going to create a replicant that lives long, hunts other replicants and knows that replicants have implanted memories, it makes no sense to implant that replicant with memories of something that doesn't exist which seems to be common knowledge to humans or easy enough for Gaff to learn about. Deckard would eventually find out. Also it's kinda weird since replicants are basically slaves, but Deckard was allowed to retire and needed to be coerced back into the job. I thought the unicorn thing was just a recurring dream of Deckard's that he shared with Gaff at some point. CelticPredator posted:It’s a story, not a historical event. But the story shows us murals that depict the Alien and Facehuggers before David began experimenting; so they were created or discovered by the Engineers long before anything in the film.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2019 22:22
|
|
|
s.i.r.e. posted:But that wouldn't make any sense; if you're going to create a replicant that lives long, hunts other replicants and knows that replicants have implanted memories, it makes no sense to implant that replicant with memories of something that doesn't exist which seems to be common knowledge to humans or easy enough for Gaff to learn about. Deckard would eventually find out. Also it's kinda weird since replicants are basically slaves, but Deckard was allowed to retire and needed to be coerced back into the job. People dream about stuff that doesn't exist all the time, not sure why you'd expect Deckard to make the leap that he's a replicant just based on that. Tyrell isn't nearly as concerned about function and logic as he is about achieving something that is as human as possible. His goal wasn't to just create disposable slaves for off-world work, that's just what happened once the replicants proved to be more dangerous than they anticipated. He's trying to create a whole new race of beings, not mindless robots.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2019 22:31
|
|
|
Basebf555 posted:And the story depicts David creating a xeno through experimentation. Nothing more nothing less. Exactly. He's a design breeder, like how humans design bred most of the domesticated animals we hug/eat.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2019 22:39
|
|
|
s.i.r.e. posted:In what way? I only watch the Final Cut but I have seen some of the others long ago but I don't remember them all that well. Everyone always points to Gaff's unicorn calling card as the "Deckard is a replicant." Which I don't understand. The writer, who thinks Deckard is human, loves the unicorn.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2019 22:52
|
|
|
So uh, might sound like a dumb question...could we do a "Let's play" of the board game?
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2019 23:07
|
|
C-Bangin' it 
s.i.r.e. posted:Also it's kinda weird since replicants are basically slaves, but Deckard was allowed to retire and needed to be coerced back into the job. The implication is that Deckard's entire career was a falsified memory loosely based on the guy who gets shot in the dick in the first scene, and the first time we see him in the movie is right after he was "activated" the first time and basically dumped on the street for Gaff to pick up, which is why the chief seems so weird and theatrical during his meeting with Deckard.
|
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2019 00:44
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 5, 2024 12:16 |
|
|
CelticPredator posted:That’s what the film is saying yes. But fans don’t like it so they’re being weird about it, instead saying it’s just stupid and moving on. It's possible that he bred that strain by loving around, but we saw in the last movie that the goo messes with human reproductive organs and creates the Alien cycle by default, so he didn't "create" anything really. He's arrogant and thinks hes creating his own music where hes just hacking bits and pieces together from what already exists.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2019 01:03
|
|