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Tab8715 posted:Personally, I don't not find the film to be anti-russian or even anti-communist. It's more of just a story about humanity becoming irresponsible gods.  I've seen a few tweets about how it's politicized but I honestly don't think it is. It shows things as they were and in all seriousness, can we be sure that any other country would have handled it better? This was unprecedented and a lot of guess work had to be done. Can you imagine a bunch of scientist showing up to any US president and say, "We have to evacuate the state of New York". I don't think they'd get any better reception.
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May 31, 2019 16:29
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Animal Husbandry, much like Particle Physics, is a messy bitch. Most pets would die out. But some would not, and those would not be constrained by food to one physical location.
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May 31, 2019 16:33
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Tab8715 posted:Personally, I don't not find the film to be anti-russian or even anti-communist. It's more of just a story about humanity becoming irresponsible gods. It's quite telling both, who gets super-defensive over the criticism of a now-dead and failed state bureaucracy as well as who goes on the offensive of the exact same already-dead thing to try and beat down the enemies of today, which tends to prove them as exactly what Mazin said in that tweet - another old man with a cane but worshipping a different idol. CrazyLoon fucked around with this message at 16:45 on May 31, 2019 |
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May 31, 2019 16:40
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Dalael posted:
Evacuating New York would be a whole different scenario than Pripyat though, evacuating Pripyat really should've been a no-brainer, it wasn't that hard to do.
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May 31, 2019 16:42
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CrazyLoon posted:It's quite telling both, who gets super-defensive over the criticism of a now-dead and failed state bureaucracy as well as who goes on the offensive of the exact same already-dead thing to try and beat down the enemies of today, which tends to prove them as exactly what Mazin said in that tweet - another old man with a cane but worshipping a different idol. Entirely agreed. I chucked a bit at how he referred to the USSR are socialist. Heh. Heh. Heh.
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May 31, 2019 16:47
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Tab8715 posted:Personally, I don't not find the film to be anti-russian or even anti-communist. It's more of just a story about humanity becoming irresponsible gods. yeah if anything most of the high-level authority figures in the show are portrayed relatively positively. Shcherbina starts off as a prick but immediately does a 180 once he's proven wrong, Gorbachev listens to his experts and gives them huge amounts of resources/manpower, one general puts himself in danger, the other comes off as extremely competent and shows concern for his men shoot even the KGB(!!!) head has some nuance to him
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May 31, 2019 17:07
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Pattonesque posted:yeah if anything most of the high-level authority figures in the show are portrayed relatively positively. Shcherbina starts off as a prick but immediately does a 180 once he's proven wrong, Gorbachev listens to his experts and gives them huge amounts of resources/manpower, one general puts himself in danger, the other comes off as extremely competent and shows concern for his men I know Midnight in Chernobyl mentioned how the Soviet system had pretty impressive resources once the higher ups made the decision to create the Zone of Exclusion.
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May 31, 2019 17:10
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I think the show can't help but be political, although how it is political isn't exactly straightforward. I know the creator talked about it partly referencing the Trump administration (correct me if I'm wrong on that), and then sometimes it takes liberties like having the Ministry of Coal be some wimp in a suit rather than the former coal miner he was, or portraying the Leading Chernobyl guy as this nihilistic denialist. Even if they're done for dramatic purpose, it still is political with how it represents characters and all that, but maybe not capital-P Political, if you catch my drift.
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May 31, 2019 17:20
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Comrade Dyatlov's Book http://www.lib.ru/MEMUARY/CHERNOBYL/dyatlow.txt
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May 31, 2019 17:27
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^ Neat! Deffo gonna take time for this.Xanderkish posted:I think the show can't help but be political, although how it is political isn't exactly straightforward. I know the creator talked about it partly referencing the Trump administration (correct me if I'm wrong on that), and then sometimes it takes liberties like having the Ministry of Coal be some wimp in a suit rather than the former coal miner he was, or portraying the Leading Chernobyl guy as this nihilistic denialist. Even if they're done for dramatic purpose, it still is political with how it represents characters and all that, but maybe not capital-P Political, if you catch my drift. I feel as if any piece of art or entertainment being 'political' (or politicized is what I prefer to use, since it implies the creators deliberately made it such) it would have to actually promote something and do so consistently throughout the show. I mean poo poo, GoT could deffo be considered to be such with the finale throwing everything else into the bin and suddenly stating elective monarchy is somehow the superior choice of government (as stupid and rushed as that was presented). But I can't say Chernobyl has yet done that kind of thing in any significant or consistent way, unless every bit of artistic license is going to be considered as such which, frankly, leads to  arguments of 'what the author REALLY intended'. But no, I don't get the sense this series is against the USSR, against russians, nor the ukranians, hell not even bureocrats considering Scherbina as a character does evolve. Its one and only theme seems to be to answer the initial scene's question: "What is the cost of lies?" and the last episode seems to be leading up to answering that more fully in its finale when Legasov presents his findings in Vienna and makes his choice. It's also no coincidence that SPOILERS this scene was the one right at the very end of it and I'm guessing Scherbina's argument is what ultimately wins out in the finale.Obviously I still need to see the last episode but...I don't get any sense that it's trying to politicize this whole thing whatsoever. Because if it did, then I think native speakers from there would've quickly picked up on that and resented it a ton immediately for politicizing a RL tragedy that impacted them, when what I mostly see from them is a ton of praise (notwithstanding the occasional nationalist idiot who, like Scherbina notes in the clip, is obsessed with his nation not being humiliated by an HBO miniseries of all things). But if this is another shout into the ether about how all art and 'everything is political!' then...whatever man. CrazyLoon fucked around with this message at 18:09 on May 31, 2019 |
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May 31, 2019 17:42
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Pattonesque posted:yeah if anything most of the high-level authority figures in the show are portrayed relatively positively. Shcherbina starts off as a prick but immediately does a 180 once he's proven wrong, Gorbachev listens to his experts and gives them huge amounts of resources/manpower, one general puts himself in danger, the other comes off as extremely competent and shows concern for his men It's amazing how quickly Shcherbina grew on me. He's such a dick at first but as you said, he totally 180 once he starts to understand the full scope of the situation. And it's examplified in that last episode, "I KNOW THEY'RE LISTENING I WANT THEM TO HEAR THIS. DO THEY KNOW WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO HERE?!?" or something along the lines. At that point you can see that he's no longer the career bureaucrat afraid of the politburo because he understands this transcends politics. I think one of my favorite line for this guy will always be, "We need a new phone"
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May 31, 2019 18:18
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RagnarokZ posted:One of the construction plans were canceled in TWO-THOUSAND AND loving TWELVE! What lunatic at Rosatom thought that was a good idea? Well, it's not really that bad. Chernobyl forced redsigns and improvements, so while not being the best, RMBKs were ok as long as they were built properly and run according to the rules. The biggest problems with reactor 4 that caused this was the cult of secrecy in the nuclear field and the ability to shut off safety systems that would have prevented this from happening while not adhering to the directions to operate it.
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May 31, 2019 18:20
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Not to make this more political, but exactly what does Trump do? He blames the people etalian posted:Yeah are people really dumb to inject their own political views into the show. You'll find that there are a lot of deeply threatened people that feel the need to defend their chosen ideology in everything. Heck, some folks homeschool because public school is "too liberal" or "indoctrinating", others refuse to see movies from certain companies or certain movies in general because they aren't religious enough or too religious. People make dumb life choices based on their ideologies like all the people shocked that their immigrant spouse got deported after voting for Trump. CrazyLoon posted:^ Neat! Deffo gonna take time for this. I think the problem with this event that causes people to think it's being political is because the event itself was wrapped up in party politics so much. Every decision, every choice that could have been made had to be done by the political officials or under the watch of them because that is how the USSR worked. If you cut that out the show wouldn't be a documentary of any stripe and really have nothing to offer. It's just like how, say, Apollo 13 doesn't come off as political because it was NASA making the calls and not the president/Congress or having literal military guards and secret police ready to enforce the political will at any moment someone started to buck. I just wouldn't be Chernobyl if you cut out the political system that was making all the decisions SocketWrench fucked around with this message at 18:39 on May 31, 2019 |
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May 31, 2019 18:22
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Dalael posted:It's amazing how quickly Shcherbina grew on me. He's such a dick at first but as you said, he totally 180 once he starts to understand the full scope of the situation. And it's examplified in that last episode, "I KNOW THEY'RE LISTENING I WANT THEM TO HEAR THIS. DO THEY KNOW WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO HERE?!?" or something along the lines. At that point you can see that he's no longer the career bureaucrat afraid of the politburo because he understands this transcends politics. Scherbina exemplifies the whole idea that once these people can safely follow their conscience they care. It shows they care. You can tell how he knows he's dead, it's just a question of how long before it kills him. Vasily tells him "5 years" and you watch him sit and think about what that really means. How he can now be more forceful in doing what he thinks is right, instead of what the state says.
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May 31, 2019 18:28
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CainFortea posted:Scherbina exemplifies the whole idea that once these people can safely follow their conscience they care. It shows they care. I feel like this is very much him in a nutshell. His argument that starts with "I've known braver souls than you, Homyuk." in my linked scene? I'm 100% sure he's referring to himself and how he failed to speak the truth, simply because "In that moment your moral conviction leaves you and all you want is not to be shot." But outside of his bureaocratic and party prison...he'd do the right thing if he could, of course. It's just a shame the world never works that way at these kinds of high levels. CrazyLoon fucked around with this message at 18:48 on May 31, 2019 |
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May 31, 2019 18:46
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I think it’s hard to judge him given that the show isn’t over. I will say it appears he knew the system was broken but even as a high ranking party member he was mostly powerless to fix it.
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May 31, 2019 18:57
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SocketWrench posted:The biggest problems with reactor 4 that caused this was the cult of secrecy in the nuclear field and the ability to shut off safety systems that would have prevented this from happening while not adhering to the directions to operate it. It was also a test which had never been run before and there were multiple issues in setting up test due things like varying power demands. At the fundamental the RBMK design did have multiple robustness in design issues (positive temperature coefficient) and also safety corner cutting such as having only a single biological containment shield.
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May 31, 2019 19:37
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This is a pretty neat miniature mockup of the reactor post explosion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WVMMJ7O2Zc etalian fucked around with this message at 21:45 on May 31, 2019 |
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May 31, 2019 19:49
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CrazyLoon posted:I feel like this is very much him in a nutshell. His argument that starts with "I've known braver souls than you, Homyuk." in my linked scene? I'm 100% sure he's referring to himself and how he failed to speak the truth, simply because "In that moment your moral conviction leaves you and all you want is not to be shot." He is; Mazin and Sagal confirmed it on the podcast.
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May 31, 2019 19:58
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etalian posted:I know Midnight in Chernobyl mentioned how the Soviet system had pretty impressive resources once the higher ups made the decision to create the Zone of Exclusion. My favorite anecdote is that the exclusion zone 1 personnel needed lead balls to put in the boron/sand mix they were dumping on the graphite fires by helicopter. Legasov and company were originally afraid to ask for the estimated 2000 tons since it was a strategic resource and needed on short notice, maybe they could order less. 1000 tones, or 500 might work a different combination with the other materials, or they might have overestimated the amount they'd need. It was a moot bit of austerity - Scherbina ignored all their numbers and ordered 6,000 tons of lead just in case. At that point Prime Minister Ryzhkov was personally involved and the Soviet centralized economy was swinging into action. He ordered the entirety of Soviet lead logistics to turn on a dime and head straight for Chernobyl. The first 2,500 tons were delivered to Chernobyl roughly 16 hours later.
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May 31, 2019 20:07
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The absolute funniest thing about people having melt downs about this being attacking trump via allegory is that apparently they all seriously fundamentally don't understand how writing for TV works. He wrote this when Trump wasn't even running yet So often you see people online talking snit the writing in shows responding to fandoms like they honestly think every show is like snl where they write the whole thing in a week SeXReX fucked around with this message at 20:44 on May 31, 2019 |
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May 31, 2019 20:41
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryI4TTaA7qM
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May 31, 2019 20:56
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Omnicarus posted:My favorite anecdote is that the exclusion zone 1 personnel needed lead balls to put in the boron/sand mix they were dumping on the graphite fires by helicopter. Legasov and company were originally afraid to ask for the estimated 2000 tons since it was a strategic resource and needed on short notice, maybe they could order less. 1000 tones, or 500 might work a different combination with the other materials, or they might have overestimated the amount they'd need. It was a moot bit of austerity - Scherbina ignored all their numbers and ordered 6,000 tons of lead just in case. The concrete sarcophagus was also a impressive engineering feat since nothing like that had ever been built before and also had restrictions since it couldn't be installed using conventional means due the massive radioactive level close to the reactor.
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May 31, 2019 20:59
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SeXReX posted:The absolute funniest thing about people having melt downs about this being attacking trump via allegory is that apparently they all seriously fundamentally don't understand how writing for TV works. https://mobile.twitter.com/clmazin/status/1134114773455343616
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May 31, 2019 21:06
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i like nice words
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episode 2 comment: For anyone here who happens to be in Tennessee, I checked that the distance between Chernobyl and Minsk is only four miles more than the distance between Nashville and Memphis, 213 miles.
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May 31, 2019 21:19
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galenanorth posted:episode 2 comment: For anyone here who happens to be in Tennessee, I checked that the distance between Chernobyl and Minsk is only four miles more than the distance between Nashville and Memphis, 213 miles. For some reason this quote got me on a convoluted train of thought that somehow ended on the phrase "Uber but for nuclear fission". Just wanted you to know that.
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May 31, 2019 21:26
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SeXReX posted:The absolute funniest thing about people having melt downs about this being attacking trump via allegory is that apparently they all seriously fundamentally don't understand how writing for TV works. I can’t imagine watching this and not realizing the malleability of truth is a major theme of the work.
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May 31, 2019 21:32
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Anne Whateley posted:The writer definitely doesn't think his work is unrelated to Trump and it's all just a weird coincidence Well you can take that just at surface political value, as most no doubt will (Trump bad grrr, Mazin obvious liberal) or if you take out Trump as the subject within King's tweet, you actually get the far less political point that goes beyond "right is poo poo, left gud" that was mentioned by this poster: Tab8715 posted:Personally, I don't not find the film to be anti-russian or even anti-communist. It's more of just a story about humanity becoming irresponsible gods.
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May 31, 2019 21:32
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Xanderkish posted:For some reason this quote got me on a convoluted train of thought that somehow ended on the phrase "Uber but for nuclear fission".
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May 31, 2019 21:59
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Would be nice if Americans could stop politicizing everything. e: not necessarily this thread, just in general.
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May 31, 2019 22:08
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Anything that involves values is inherently political 
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May 31, 2019 22:10
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I'm not sure how you could come to thinking this show has a positive or indifferent view of the Soviet Union.
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May 31, 2019 22:34
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Who is making the claim that it is?
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May 31, 2019 22:36
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El_Elegante posted:Anything that involves values is inherently political
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May 31, 2019 22:51
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El_Elegante posted:Who is making the claim that it is? Your scroll button broke?
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May 31, 2019 22:51
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CrazyLoon posted:Well you can take that just at surface political value, as most no doubt will (Trump bad grrr, Mazin obvious liberal) or if you take out Trump as the subject within King's tweet, you actually get the far less political point that goes beyond "right is poo poo, left gud" that was mentioned by this poster:
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May 31, 2019 22:55
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Despera posted:Your scroll button broke? I can’t find that claim, so I suspect the issue lies more with your reading comprehension than with my mouse.
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May 31, 2019 22:59
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CrazyLoon posted:
Took me twenty seconds when I was driving. I dont know what your excuse is. Tiene los ojos? They are in your avatar And yes the show is anti communist in the least by showing how much the Soviet Union sucks that its accomplishments are based on lies. The whole "people trying to do their best and its univerisal" point of view is bullshit when everyone has to deal with all the lies and bullshit their government forces upon them. Also if you want to argue that the soviet union wasnt communist and go down the whole "communism can only be failed rabbit hole" be my guest Despera fucked around with this message at 23:07 on May 31, 2019 |
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May 31, 2019 23:00
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Zane posted:the director talks literally about the show being a secondary commentary on the trump presidency through the shared theme of truth in the first episode of the podcast He specifically mentions that the show was written prior to Trump's presidency iirc
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May 31, 2019 23:04
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How can these non-mutually exclusive things both be true
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