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YF-23 posted:I don't really think you need to get rid of activation being instant; at least personally I like that a lot. But bringing income more under player control is something you are definitely on the money on. Let's take EU4, you could have a part of your monarch power cap contributed by estates; so for instance for your military power, 25% of it is contributed by the nobles estate. That amount builds off estate loyalty and influence, in parallel to the rest of your monarch power. So if your cap is 999, and you have a 3 MIL ruler and a 1 MIL advisor, you get 7 MIL points which can build up to 750, and your nobility estates give you some extra, up to 249. Nah I think one of the biggest problems is the instantaneous actions. It feels like a board game or something, not a living society. A big part of this is definitely personal taste, I think Paradox games should lean more towards sims than board games, but just generally I think it's more fun and makes more sense to make things take time. Let you speed up or slow down how fast a thing happens, obviously, but the traditional stockpiling income and then spending it all for instant effects things just feels wrong. I'd much rather take a year to pass a law spending 5 units of political capital a month over 12 months with events and other factors maybe increasing or decreasing the speed/progress than wait and do nothing except watch my stockpile tick up for a year until I hit 60 and get it instantly. Taking time and the rates being influenced by other factors feels more like running an actual state where you're not an omnipotent god that just wills things into existence once you've sat still for 12 months. Crazycryodude fucked around with this message at 16:16 on May 30, 2019 |
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May 30, 2019 16:13
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But it basically is a board game and not a living society.
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May 30, 2019 17:43
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Kaza42 posted:One thing I don't like about mana systems is that they tend to make the outcome instant after you've saved up the points. But that's not how governing works, so it feels fake Crazycryodude posted:Nah I think one of the biggest problems is the instantaneous actions. It feels like a board game or something, not a living society. To get around the player getting screwed by randomness, maybe have advisors associated with specific factions which allows the player to actively choose positive techs to research. Or, if the monarch is especially gifted, they can do it themselves. Minenfeld! posted:But it basically is a board game and not a living society.
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May 30, 2019 17:49
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EU4 being the most like a board game is why it is, in my opinion, the best of the current generation of paradox games. So no surprise that I would rather maintain the elements that make it work like that.  I much prefer the amount of actions that are directly in the players' control than the more chaotic, simulation-y aspects of CK2 or V2. An EU4 campaign feels like a campaign rather than a story and I really appreciate that.
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May 30, 2019 17:53
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Stellaris has a perfectly good mana system because the different kinds of mana come up organically from your territory, buildings, tech, expansion, etc. I wouldn't mind mana at all in EU4 if they were something like "research points" and came from your advisors
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May 30, 2019 18:03
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Minenfeld! posted:But it basically is a board game and not a living society. You're right, but I also think that's among it's biggest weaknesses; it makes it less engrossing and less interesting. I really wish they'd lean into adding more history-sim elements.
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May 30, 2019 18:16
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Minenfeld! posted:But it basically is a board game and not a living society. Yeah that's what I don't like.
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May 30, 2019 18:21
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EU4 being like a board game is probably why I like it the least
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May 30, 2019 18:24
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Pacho posted:Stellaris has a perfectly good mana system because the different kinds of mana come up organically from your territory, buildings, tech, expansion, etc. I wouldn't mind mana at all in EU4 if they were something like "research points" and came from your advisors Yeah I'd call Stellaris resources, well, resources rather than "mana." I think the key difference is that resources are generated and get spent in logical ways the player can control. Like if I need more minerals, build more mines. If I need more energy, build more generators. If I need more alloys, build more foundries and make sure you have enough minerals and energy to run them. It's all abstracted, but it generally has the sense of a real economy or at least a logic to it. If I need more ADM points.... uh.... hope the dice roll 20 years from now comes up good. That's about it.
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May 30, 2019 18:28
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Yeah, and the one 'mana'-ish resource Stellaris has - Influence - is still super irritating at times, far more so than the ones you're in charge of generating yourself.
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May 30, 2019 18:55
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If it's not Vicky 3, it had better be Paradox's version of Romance of the Three Kingdoms. Although TW:3 Kingdoms is apparently Very Good so it might come across as a massive me-too.
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May 30, 2019 19:15
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Crazycryodude posted:There's also about 3,000 years of human history still left to cover before Imperator so maybe we'll see a bronze age game, I kinda doubt they'd do a migration period game so soon after Imperator but it's possible, and then there's 1950-2200 which would probably be a Cold War game to 2001 or something. Of course, there's probably also room for like three different ancient China games so maybe it's that, release would be far enough away that they wouldn't really be competing with the new Total War. Also direct competition with Total War would.be crazy. Paradox has grown a lot but have they really come close to Creative Assembly in size?
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May 30, 2019 19:31
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Farecoal posted:EU4 being like a board game is probably why I like it the least 
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May 30, 2019 19:38
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Farecoal posted:EU4 being like a board game is probably why I like it the least Europa Universalis is a board game. 
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May 30, 2019 19:40
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I'm honestly kind of surprised to see this much disdain for the board game-style gameplay in this thread. I'd have assumed most the people here also like board games but I guess not, huh.
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May 30, 2019 19:58
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Everything that is bad about paradox games is when they're trying to make a strategy game instead of a simulation 
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May 30, 2019 20:03
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Yeah count me in as a vote for mana systems. I think EU4 does mana really well, certainly much better than EU3 handled things like paying for technology or using agents/magistrates.
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May 30, 2019 20:04
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YF-23 posted:I'm honestly kind of surprised to see this much disdain for the board game-style gameplay in this thread. I'd have assumed most the people here also like board games but I guess not, huh. I also enjoy board games, but I have a whole stack of them and when I fire up a strategy game on my PC it's because I don't want to play a board game.
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May 30, 2019 20:07
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Jedit posted:Europa Universalis is a board game. I know? I'm not a fan.
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May 30, 2019 20:09
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Crazycryodude posted:I also enjoy board games, but I have a whole stack of them and when I fire up a strategy game on my PC it's because I don't want to play a board game.  The thing that makes the Paradox games great compared to say, Civ, is that they're actually grounded in history, it allows for way more interesting stuff. I just want them to lean in harder.
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May 30, 2019 20:56
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Deceitful Penguin posted:I want them to do a crossover with Tyranny, where you have that mix of powerful personalities a la CK2, with magic and rpg elements on a historical map, modelled on the pop systems of Stellaris, Imperator and CK2 because the numbers involved are small enough you should be able to model them fairly closely I have no idea how to check, but my impression was that paradox passed up CA in sales fiveish years ago when CK2 and rome2 came out within a couple months of each other
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May 30, 2019 21:14
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Senor Dog posted:I have no idea how to check, but my impression was that paradox passed up CA in sales fiveish years ago when CK2 and rome2 came out within a couple months of each other Paradox Interactive has a total revenue of 118,328,776 USD [source: wikipedia converted from krona]. Sega (the parent company of CA) has a total revenue of 1,898,000,000 USD (about 15x Paradox's) [source: wikipedia converted from yen] Crunchbase estimates that CA has a total revenue of 16,300,000 USD however. That same website estimates Paradox at about 650 million. Glassdoor reports 10-25 million per year in revenue for CA, but doesn't have any data for Paradox. This combined with the fact that Sega bought CA for ~30 million back in 2005 suggests that the Crunchbase estimate is probably not too far off the bat
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May 30, 2019 21:28
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That's conflating Paradox the developer and Paradox the publisher. Three Kingdoms is CA's fastest selling game ever (and apparently the biggest 2019 launch on steam so far, in any genre) so it's not a completely fair comparison, but it went past 1 million sales within the first week; EU4 took well over a year to hit that figure didn't it? And for a cheaper game at that. The grand strategy games are getting more popular (and elements of them are creeping into Total War and Civ now; with Three Kingdoms, more than ever, so it's clear CA's paying attention to what Paradox is doing) but I think CA is still pretty gigantic compared to the Paradox dev teams, and also growing insanely fast these past few years since Warhammer was a wild success. Also Rome 2 and CK2 were well over a year apart. CK2 came out at about the same time as the expansion for Total War: Shogun 2, Fall of the Samurai. I guess I wouldn't be astonished if CK2 did better? It was pretty huge and not up against a full Total War release. But I'd be pretty astonished if EU4 outsold Total War: Rome 2 (better received though for sure). Koramei fucked around with this message at 22:37 on May 30, 2019 |
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May 30, 2019 22:32
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Crazycryodude posted:It feels like a board game or something, not a living society. 
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May 30, 2019 22:41
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PittTheElder posted:
uhh I mean, I get it and you're not entirely wrong but all Paradox makes are games of grand conquest designed to ultimately paint the map
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May 31, 2019 00:15
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Cantorsdust posted:Yeah count me in as a vote for mana systems. I think EU4 does mana really well, certainly much better than EU3 handled things like paying for technology or using agents/magistrates. This, sort of. There are good and bad ways to implement 'mana' systems and EU4 mostly nailed it. Imperator mostly failed it. Stellaris is sort of eh, Influence is just boring.
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May 31, 2019 01:21
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Gamerofthegame posted:uhh I think the point they're making is that it's more about jumping into a historical context and pretending you could do better, rather than like, just arbitrarily setting up some game pieces and seeing whose game pieces are better. The conflict here is that some people are into Paradox games for the mechanics, and others are into them for the fiction, and sometimes they aren't super compatible. The more "game-y" the mechanics get, the more difficult it gets to be absorbed into the setting and pretend that it's a realistic historical simulator. Meanwhile, the stronger the game leans into the fiction, the more obtuse and obscure the mechanics get. As Paradox games go, EU is probably the farthest end of the "mechanics" spectrum, while Victoria is the farthest into the "fiction" spectrum, and most are at various points in between. I think the thing to bear in mind is that there's no right answer here, and that different approaches work for different styles of game. Paradox has a lot of franchises and there's no reason they all have to be done the same way.
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May 31, 2019 02:06
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The parts I find most maddening are the parts that are neither realistic nor good gameplay. 'Junior partners and vassals = ork armies' and 'any war = total war' being among the most egregious.
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May 31, 2019 06:27
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What if the secret project is... Diplomacy 2? 
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May 31, 2019 06:51
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YF-23 posted:I'm honestly kind of surprised to see this much disdain for the board game-style gameplay in this thread. I'd have assumed most the people here also like board games but I guess not, huh. I wonder if there’s a correlation with how much multiplayer people play. I’m about 50/50 solo vs. mp and I prefer the board game style gameplay. I can imagine if I only played solo that I might feel different.
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May 31, 2019 07:23
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PittTheElder posted:The parts I find most maddening are the parts that are neither realistic nor good gameplay. 'Junior partners and vassals = ork armies' and 'any war = total war' being among the most egregious.
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May 31, 2019 11:14
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Just got Stellaris recently and had a really weird thing happen to me - the Galactic Nomads sold me 15 ships that jumped my early game fleet power from ~1500 to ~6400. Now I know what you're going to say, that's an event that happens sometimes. But the weird thing was, they offered to sell me 5 ships for 1000 energy credits or 2000 minerals. I said sure to the minerals, and while the order was processing, a mysterious person contacted me to say that my vassal had also negotiated for the ships, and that for the low, low price of 1000 energy credits they can "keep that from happening." So I figured it was just pumping me for more money to get the same 5 ships. I didn't want to lose them(or have my vassal be able to curbstomp me) so I threw good money after bad. But instead, I got my original 5 ship order, and a the same time a "Redirected" delivery of 10 ships that were meant to my vassal (whom I imagine would have made me into their vassal). But they didn't even take my 1000 energy credits. The text actually suggested I should have only gotten ten ships total ("two separate five-ship orders were delivered to the Sol system"). Thanks for the Nail Rat fucked around with this message at 15:32 on May 31, 2019 |
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May 31, 2019 15:25
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Nail Rat posted:Just got Stellaris recently and had a really weird thing happen to me - the Galactic Nomads sold me 15 ships that jumped my early game fleet power from ~1500 to ~6400. Its still buggy as gently caress and they arent spending the time they need to to polish rough edges like that out. I still love the game though.
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May 31, 2019 17:17
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Family Values posted:I wonder if there’s a correlation with how much multiplayer people play. I’m about 50/50 solo vs. mp and I prefer the board game style gameplay. I can imagine if I only played solo that I might feel different. This might be part of it. I can't stand Paradox MP because the presence of other players fucks with gameplay too much imo. Real hard to debate the choices facing my nation - or even care about the concept of the nation - when I've got people who are playing like it's a battle royale around.
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May 31, 2019 23:25
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Koramei posted:That's conflating Paradox the developer and Paradox the publisher. Three Kingdoms is CA's fastest selling game ever (and apparently the biggest 2019 launch on steam so far, in any genre) so it's not a completely fair comparison, but it went past 1 million sales within the first week; EU4 took well over a year to hit that figure didn't it? And for a cheaper game at that. The grand strategy games are getting more popular (and elements of them are creeping into Total War and Civ now; with Three Kingdoms, more than ever, so it's clear CA's paying attention to what Paradox is doing) but I think CA is still pretty gigantic compared to the Paradox dev teams, and also growing insanely fast these past few years since Warhammer was a wild success. Oops yeah I did mean EU4 not CK2. Since there’s no available data, I’m not going to argue the other points. I’m glad there are multiple bigish devs makin these games and I hope we get a few more even.
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May 31, 2019 23:34
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Kaza42 posted:Paradox Interactive has a total revenue of 118,328,776 USD [source: wikipedia converted from krona]. I don't think comparing Sega to Paradox is really a relevant stat.
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May 31, 2019 23:51
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KOGAHAZAN!! posted:I have been working on a map for a CK2 TC for literally six years. Playstation 4 posted:
KOGAHAZAN!! posted:
I meant to reply to these awhile back. Someone on the Paradox forums made a tool to help with some of that. Not sure if it's helpful given where you're at, but it's over here: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/tools-ck2maptools-automating-some-of-the-map-generation-process.1116396/
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Jun 1, 2019 04:19
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So what’s the most bonkers thing you’ve done in a Shattered World while playing CK2? (For reference, my most recent settings are inter-religious marriages ON, Aztecs ON, Mongol invasion ON, China ON (within diplomatic range), dynastic titles OFF; I also play with some mods, most notably Ruler Designer Unlocked because I’m a person who just wants to play the game, not be restricted for the sake of achievements) Here’s mine: I started as a custom Hellenic character (female because I needed variety; this will be important later, trust me), chose Athens as my starting point, and then proceeded to reform the Hellenic faith into a warmongering, bloodthirsty matriarchal society (told ya my character’s gender was important) and also formed Byzantium, founding the Hellenic versions of the Benedictine Order, Satanism, and their warrior lodge along the way and I claimed Rome from the Papacy prior to forming Byzantium, which sparked the Fratecelli heresy overtaking Catholicism as the true faith in Europe, as well as seeing a rise in Tengri worship in along the Austrian/Italian border. Last I left off, I was very close to reforming the Roman Empire (I only need Venice, Jerusalem, Tunis, and maybe Antioch (will have to check that last one)), and one of my most recent characters was one-handed and still had a Personal Combat score in the triple digits (mostly due to her previous dueling experience and some sweet weapons that I forged) before she died. I’m now playing her daughter who, though also a capable fighter, is a part of the aforementioned Hellenic Benedictine Order.
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Jun 1, 2019 08:03
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Made a custom horde in the Netherlands and just blobbed all over the place. It turns out you can go full North Korea mode because you don't have a demesne limit for feudal holdings and you don't get any clan penalties because provinces with more than 1 holding left don't count as nomadic.
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Jun 1, 2019 10:18
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Mana systems are OK but they could be done better. Just abstract all types into a single pool and remove the "luck factor" by having it regenerate at a fixed rate, in realtime. Each action you take as a player should cost an amount of mana relative to its importance. So I might have 60/60 mana and I want to declare a war on a large neighbor. That costs 50 mana. If I return to the game 5 hours later, that mana will have regenerated and I can take another action. If I want to play faster, I can choose to spend a currency item to refill my bar. Currency items should be gained via special ingame events, or via a small microtransacton. This would make the game far more enjoyable, and perhaps also get Pdox some much needed extra money.
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Jun 1, 2019 13:25
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