TG as an Industry: A pendulum swing against the excesses of Rule 0 culture

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > TG as an Industry: A pendulum swing against the excesses of Rule 0 culture

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Kurieg: Jul 19, 2012; RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20

LatwPIAT posted:

I don't like either Holden or Mørke but when you put it like that, I'm not actually sure I dislike Mørke enough to think it's a good thing that he starves. That's pretty extreme!

Holden and his Twitter friend who's handle escapes me at the moment basically operate under the assumption that Morke is "too good" for lesser labour. And that if they don't funnel work his way, it's as good as killing him.

But he can flip burgers for all I care. If he's too proud for that then he deserves to be taken down several notches for what he's done.

# ? Jun 4, 2019 12:56

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# ? May 24, 2024 15:45

sexpig by night: Sep 8, 2011; by Azathoth

yea it's not so much 'I literally want him to starve' as it is 'his dipshit friend is claiming that unless he's actively given work just for being him, regardless of any bad deeds he does, he'll starve because his precious artistic soul is too good to do mere pleb work so it's this or nothing' and me going 'kay then'.

# ? Jun 4, 2019 13:50

LatwPIAT: Jun 6, 2011

Yeah that seems a lot more reasonable.

# ? Jun 4, 2019 13:59

Alien Rope Burn: Dec 5, 2004; _{I wanna be a saikyo HERO!}

What, a notorious gatekeeper just got locked out?

Let me get my key- whups, dropped it down the toilet.

Now the toilet is flushing!?

I feel just awful, how is this happening?!

# ? Jun 4, 2019 14:29

Lemniscate Blue: Apr 21, 2006; Here we go again.

Alien Rope Burn posted:

What, a notorious gatekeeper just got locked out?

Let me get my key- whups, dropped it down the toilet.

Now the toilet is flushing!?

I feel just awful, how is this happening?!

What the ever-loving blue-eyed gently caress is that? Was that actually used to screen freelancers for Ex3?

# ? Jun 4, 2019 14:36

Kurieg: Jul 19, 2012; RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20

Alien Rope Burn posted:

What, a notorious gatekeeper just got locked out?

Let me get my key- whups, dropped it down the toilet.

Now the toilet is flushing!?

I feel just awful, how is this happening?!

quote:

A consumer must be past the point of passing judgment on individual designers. It is not useful or productive to get wrapped up in this kind of thinking, because you will end up confused when you realize that the most �evil� designers have saved the line time and time again. As a reader for Exalted it is far more useful to understand a developer's importance than to pass judgment on their actions. It also creates a stronger, more natural, unpredictable and exciting community, the developers of 2nd edition are exempted from this because they are scum.

Lemniscate Blue posted:

What the ever-loving blue-eyed gently caress is that? Was that actually used to screen freelancers for Ex3?

Yes

# ? Jun 4, 2019 14:39

sexpig by night: Sep 8, 2011; by Azathoth

Alien Rope Burn posted:

What, a notorious gatekeeper just got locked out?

Let me get my key- whups, dropped it down the toilet.

Now the toilet is flushing!?

I feel just awful, how is this happening?!

Lol no fuckin waaaaaaaaaaay

# ? Jun 4, 2019 14:40

sexpig by night: Sep 8, 2011; by Azathoth

nevermind I actually do want him to starve now

# ? Jun 4, 2019 14:40

Dawgstar: Jul 15, 2017

Why the slavish devotion to Exalted 1E, I am forced to wonder.

# ? Jun 4, 2019 14:49

Cessna: Feb 20, 2013; KHABAHBLOOOM

New thread title:

TG As An Industry: Find this gesture in Big Two-Hearted River and explain in less than 500 words why it is a transcendental moment.

# ? Jun 4, 2019 14:52

LatwPIAT: Jun 6, 2011

Dawgstar posted:

Why the slavish devotion to Exalted 1E, I am forced to wonder.

Exalted 1e had tighter editorial and writing direction than 2e, which was basically neglected by the line editor leading to an incoherent setting with an "anything goes" attitude.

And Alan Alexander. Lethe, Alan Alexander.

# ? Jun 4, 2019 15:08

Alien Rope Burn: Dec 5, 2004; _{I wanna be a saikyo HERO!}

Also if he's got a unquenchable thirst to write more d10 dice tricks, there are plenty of sites like rpgnow or lulu or patreon where he can put his offal on the waffle.

# ? Jun 4, 2019 15:15

DalaranJ: Apr 15, 2008; Yosuke will now die for you.

Alien Rope Burn posted:

What, a notorious gatekeeper just got locked out?

Let me get my key- whups, dropped it down the toilet.

Now the toilet is flushing!?

I feel just awful, how is this happening?!

This all looks great, everything is in order. But wait what�s this, it appears you haven�t read the entire works of Lord Dunsany. What if we need someone to fail to describe a gnoll?

:ItisanOD&Djoke:

# ? Jun 4, 2019 15:27

grassy gnoll: Aug 27, 2006; The pawsting business is tough work.

I'd like to see you do better, pal.

# ? Jun 4, 2019 15:36

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

HEY GUYS WHO WANTS TO READ GRIM JIM DESBROUGH RUNNING PR FOR THE rear end in a top hat EXPO GM!

It's full of outright lies, excuses, retcons, and gamergater bullshit, of course.

I also bet the first words you'd use to describe Tales From the Loop is "darkly mature" where one might expect both dark and mature content, it's all right there!

gently caress this guy and gently caress grimmy Jimmy.

quote:

Could you summarise, in your own words, exactly what happened?

When I came up with the adventure I had two scenes in mind.

One, the lads, drunk or high outside a kebab shop at 1 am trying to get enough money together to buy a kebab and two, the lads naked, handcuffed, covered in poo being chased by men with guns, which seemed funny.

I was thinking gross out humour, Porkys, American Pie and Inbetweeners – with a bit of Trainspotting and a dash of the Carry On films, but ending with a light touch of Hostel.

To get from the kebab shop to covered in poo, I came up with the lads on tour, Club 18-30 idea.

But as with all plans, not all of it survived first contact with the players. I forgot bits, the covered in poo part for one, and missed some of the comedic beats.

The second gross out teenage comedy/horror I ran later for the UKExpo’s team leaders hit all its comedy beats and was very funny. The game was halted at 11:30 so the giant robots attacking the rave scene fell flat.

This was a mash-up of the Inbetweeners Movie and Hostel. Not the greatest scenario.

A bunch of rich guys wanted to hunt some Englishmen for sport.

Act 1 was the PCs trying to get the money for a Club 18/30 holiday
Act 2 was the arrival in Ibiza.
Act 3 I removed the player agency for 2 mins for a narrative segment, then continued.
The Narration:

“The tour rep gives you some shots, everything goes fuzzy.”

In my notes it states, the drug used not only knocks them out, it gives them terrible diarrhoea. Hence no clothes and sore bums.

“You wake up naked, handcuffed to each other, with sore bums, in the back of a van. Guys with guns make you get out and say run.”

The image of the Inbetweeners lads running naked over wasteland handcuffed together seemed a funny image, which is why I constructed the narrative just to get that scene. However in the post-game chat with all the players I completely forgot to talk through the bits they missed as we were all talking about the structure of shock in horror games.

I believe this omission on my part has caused the problem. The players saw something that wasn’t there and I failed to rectify this as we started discussing something else. Had one of the players raised the issue I would have remembered.

However I accept that it was my fault that I forgot.

After they ran. they had the option of a farm or the woods. They went with the farm. Had they gone with the woods they would have met the robots hiding there.

I bumped into one of the players from the group of 4 friends who played, he said he was annoyed that there were no robots, had they gone into the woods…

Did you advertise the game as a horror scenario or with an age restriction?

It was advertised as an 18+ scenario, using a darkly mature game, but the burb clearly showed it to be a gross-out teenage scenario. Something like grubby teenage lads doing grubby teenage lad things.

Did the players remain for the entire session?

Yes, we began with a chat about the systems and the dark themes within them.

When were you aware that there was a problem?

Nothing till 11ish, when I got a call about something on Twitter. In fact one of the group of four said he was looking forward to the game of Kult the following day.

Did the convention staff listen to your side of things at all?

I’d been up since 4 and had just run 12 hours of games. I was in a bit of shock so not 100% as to what was going on, only that there had been no complaint and that they were going off something that was on Twitter. I think I tried to roughly explain the scenario, but I’m not really sure what I said.

Do you intend to appeal the convention’s decision?

Yes. I’m sending them a statement with a request to remove the inaccurate press statement they put out, due to the defamatory nature of their statement.

Were any of the players under age? What about the characters?

The age rating was 18+. The players were 18+, as were the PCs.

Did the ‘gang rape of minors’ actually take place in the game and was it described as such or in lurid detail?

Not at all, both my GM notes and the recording I made of the game clearly show that nothing of the sort happened.

It’s my understanding that while Tales from the Loop is a more ‘kids on bikes’ game, Things from the Flood is more of a horror game with more adult content. Is that right?

No, both are darkly mature games. Anyone who has read the books, knows this. Just a read through of the scenarios in Tales from the Loop shows it’s an 18+ game.

Were you aware of any convention rules prohibiting the kind of content in your game before this blew up?

I have been running roughly 8 games a year for UKexpo for nearly a decade, minus the year I had Open Heart Surgery, so had an understanding of the rules but given there was no ‘gang rape of minors’ it was not an issue.

You don’t seem quite as social-media connected as a lot of people, what has it been like for you being ‘cancelled’ in this way?

I only have a locked down Facebook that I use to keep in contact with family.

Its quite mad to think that the game of internet whispers is revolving around you. I’m reading bits thinking, ‘that never happened’. Makes you think about the fake/real news in the age of misinformation we have woken up to. Bloody insane. The pseudo death threats, and threats of violence, from clicking keys in somebody’s mum’s basement would be funny – if it wasn’t happening to you.

Some people talk as though you have a reputation for pushing boundaries and being ‘edgy’, is that fair to you?

No, I run games that have twists, or that turn genres on their heads. I’ve run every genre from Dad’s Army vs the Deep Ones to Delta Green, to Musketeers in the Hollow Earth.

Have you been able to counter these accusations anywhere or have you been prevented from doing so?

I have not really spoken to anyone. I’ve not begun to online, just yet.

Your delayed Kickstarter has been brought up and used to attack you, but I saw an update from May 15th. Do you still intend to deliver and do you have a revised timetable?

This is really a conversation between me and the backers, but my Open Heart Surgery delayed things. A full draft was dropped a while ago.

This opens up the debate, what is or is not acceptable? MYFAROG? Let’s Kill the Ice Cream Man? Lover in the Ice and any of the Lamentations of the Flame Princess adventures? Even the Alien RPG, a game based on a film where a monster puts its genitalia down your throat to empty its seed inside you… I guess gross out teenage comedy needs to be added to that list.

# ? Jun 4, 2019 17:43

Alien Rope Burn: Dec 5, 2004; _{I wanna be a saikyo HERO!}

... a light touch of Hostel.

# ? Jun 4, 2019 17:49

Dawgstar: Jul 15, 2017

Well no WONDER the Herald of Compassion decided to go to the wall for Jimmy! I don't know what we were all complaining about.

# ? Jun 4, 2019 17:50

Kurieg: Jul 19, 2012; RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20

I know we just got a new thread title but "In the heat of the moment I forgot to cover them in poo poo." Is a strong contender.

# ? Jun 4, 2019 17:53

clockworkjoe: May 31, 2000; Rolled a 1 on the random encounter table, didn't you?

are there any existing examples of Shearer trying to get Morke work? I haven't followed this very closely.

# ? Jun 4, 2019 18:01

Vox Valentine: May 31, 2013; Solving all of life's problems through enhanced casting of Occam's Razor. Reward yourself with an imaginary chalice.

There's so much wrong with all of that. I don't know where to begin nor do I feel like I should begin. It evokes the same sort of visceral emotional reaction as watching someone in a crying jag openly and knowingly lie to you. You're angry but there's just this powerful sense of disgusted pity and the deep feeling that it'll be okay if you just walk away and let the consequences of their actions loving obliterate them. You don't need to enable them or destroy them. They're already being destroyed. You can just live comfortably not giving them the time of day and ignoring their screams as they're eaten alive. The profound emotion of "it's really sad you believe all of this and I won't be at your funeral".

# ? Jun 4, 2019 18:06

Mors Rattus: Oct 25, 2007; FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018

clockworkjoe posted:

are there any existing examples of Shearer trying to get Morke work? I haven't followed this very closely.

Mostly shilling his patreon.

# ? Jun 4, 2019 18:06

Rand Brittain: Mar 25, 2013; "Go on until you're stopped."

clockworkjoe posted:

are there any existing examples of Shearer trying to get Morke work? I haven't followed this very closely.

It basically comes down to "John is still trying to operate his Patreon doing fiction writing and Holden used to try to boost it on his Twitter."

People pointed out that this wasn't a great look and he gave up mentioning it, partly because of that and partly because John's Patreon is a total wash so far. (Seriously, I don't even know what he's supposed to be writing because it's all locked so only his 7 patrons can see it.)

# ? Jun 4, 2019 18:07

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

Hm, yes, the 18+ darkly mature scenarios in Tales From the Loop, where sure there's a seriousness to it a la Stranger Things vs The Goonies, when you uncover a dinosaur mystery and a megalomaniac robot doctor. Very equivalent to the MPAA/TV rating definition of "mature" where it means someone says a swear and maybe you see some boobs.

# ? Jun 4, 2019 18:32

Kurieg: Jul 19, 2012; RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20

clockworkjoe posted:

are there any existing examples of Shearer trying to get Morke work? I haven't followed this very closely.

Back in February, during that round of pointing out Missing Stairs in the industry. Holden was leading the charge. Inbetween bouts of pointing out bad actors in the community he'd retweet Morke's patreon and talk about how he was an amazing author and people should give him money.

Since Holden was inadvertently(Or intentionally) funneling people who were incensed about BHM's bad behaviour into paying attention to Morke, I decided to engage with him on twitter and point out the Beam in his own eye.
The responses I got were basically

Morke helped Holden out during a tough time in his life so asking him to cut him out now is impossible
Morke has left the Tradgames industry and that's all we're focusing on.
Holden has admitted that Morke was a bad person (in this one forum post that they kept linking me back to repeatedly) and thus it is now eternal public knowledge and it shouldn't matter that he retweets him.
This one person who was abused by someone completely different has forgiven Morke and anyone else who doesn't forgive him is ignoring them and their pain and is erasing victims.

That last one pissed me off a lot (obviously) and was what drove me to just stop engaging with them.

Kurieg fucked around with this message at 18:43 on Jun 4, 2019

# ? Jun 4, 2019 18:38

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

That Old Tree posted:

Hm, yes, the 18+ darkly mature scenarios in Tales From the Loop, where sure there's a seriousness to it a la Stranger Things vs The Goonies, when you uncover a dinosaur mystery and a megalomaniac robot doctor. Very equivalent to the MPAA/TV rating definition of "mature" where it means someone says a swear and maybe you see some boobs.

"well, they were drugged, and then ended up handcuffed and naked in a van with sore butts - BUT OBVIOUSLY I JUST MEANT THAT THIS WAS A SIDE EFFECT OF THE DRUG, HOW COULD ANYONE POSSIBLY BELIEVE OTHERWISE, STOP DEFAMING ME!"

# ? Jun 4, 2019 18:41

Magnusth: Sep 25, 2014; _{Hello, Creature! Do You Despise Goat Hating Fascists? So Do We! Join Us at Paradise Lost!}

So, in lighter news: The industry's (to my knowledge) only coop just released its first book, the San Jenaro Short Games Digest Volume 1. The San Jenaro Co-op is fully creator-owned and each gets a share of the product they make! And yeah, uh, to be clear, I'm one of the creators of the Short Games Digest, but still, i figured actual good indsutry news would be welcome here!

Magnusth fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Jun 4, 2019

# ? Jun 4, 2019 18:52

Desiden: Mar 13, 2016; Mindless self indulgence is SRS BIZNS

Ah yes, how I remember all those screwball comedies of my youth, filled with naked teens with sore asses being chased by men with guns.

# ? Jun 4, 2019 18:53

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

"It wouldn't have looked so bad if they were properly covered in diarrhea."

# ? Jun 4, 2019 19:09

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

Things from a game where you should definitely expect drugged, poo poo-covered kids with ruined butts.

# ? Jun 4, 2019 19:24

Leperflesh: May 17, 2007

Desiden posted:

Ah yes, how I remember all those screwball comedies of my youth, filled with naked teens with sore asses being chased by men with guns.

Most of those 1980s screwball comedies (like Porky's, Revenge of the Nerds, etc.) have some super-problematic poo poo in them.
https://www.literateape.com/blog/2018/11/21/problematic-movies-of-the-80s-porkys-1981 (Porky's is relatively benign among them, Revenge of the Nerds is worse...)
Most of the really problematic poo poo revolves around "boys will be boys" attitudes towards stalking, sexual exploitation, peeping toms, up to and including outright rape in RotN (but it's OK because it wasn't violent and then she fell in love with him, see).

e. btw. I'm not too sure about this literate ape site, I just googled the movie names + problematic and got these articles.

Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Jun 4, 2019

# ? Jun 4, 2019 19:34

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Oh yeah, Revenge of the Nerds in particular ruined my ability to think properly about a lot of stuff - consent, relationships, etc. - until I was a lot older and realized exactly how messed up it is.

# ? Jun 4, 2019 19:40

moths: Aug 25, 2004; I would also still appreciate some danger.

If you're running an hard-R screwball black comedy in the style of The Hangover or Very Bad Things, you put that up front.

This "their butts hurt from all the diarrhea" is so obviously a tacked-on "I only implied rape" smugdick move that I actually dislike this creep more now.

# ? Jun 4, 2019 19:41

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

Also, "screwball comedies" are a very specific genre, usually romantic spoofs from the 1930s and 40s with a lot of clever rapid-fire dialogue between the two leads. They're the exact opposite of smutty 1980s teen comedies.

# ? Jun 4, 2019 19:48

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

FMguru posted:

Also, "screwball comedies" are a very specific genre, usually romantic spoofs from the 1930s and 40s with a lot of clever rapid-fire dialogue between the two leads. They're the exact opposite of smutty 1980s teen comedies.

I dunno, I'm not an expert but I've seen Porky's etc described as "screwball comedy" all over the place.

And still none of that involved poo poo-covered teens running for their lives in some Most Dangerous Game situation.

# ? Jun 4, 2019 19:53

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

That Old Tree posted:

I dunno, I'm not an expert but I've seen Porky's etc described as "screwball comedy" all over the place.

And still none of that involved poo poo-covered teens running for their lives in some Most Dangerous Game situation.

I usually see 'em called "teen sex comedies".

Screwball comedies are things like All About Eve, The Front Page, Bringing Up Baby, &c.

# ? Jun 4, 2019 19:55

moths: Aug 25, 2004; I would also still appreciate some danger.

That Old Tree posted:

And still none of that involved poo poo-covered teens running for their lives in some Most Dangerous Game situation.

That's very consistent with something from a James Franco / Seth Rogan black comedy, except also someone would be tripping on shrooms.

# ? Jun 4, 2019 20:03

Alien Rope Burn: Dec 5, 2004; _{I wanna be a saikyo HERO!}

... a light touch of Hostel.

# ? Jun 4, 2019 20:07

Dawgstar: Jul 15, 2017

Desiden posted:

Ah yes, how I remember all those screwball comedies of my youth, filled with naked teens with sore asses being chased by men with guns.

The Porky's series went in a weird direction.

# ? Jun 4, 2019 20:18

Warthur: May 2, 2004

Kurieg posted:

Holden and his Twitter friend who's handle escapes me at the moment basically operate under the assumption that Morke is "too good" for lesser labour. And that if they don't funnel work his way, it's as good as killing him.

But he can flip burgers for all I care. If he's too proud for that then he deserves to be taken down several notches for what he's done.

Yeah, at that point it's less that The System/a lack of compassion from others is killing him and more a matter of his own pride killing him. Suicide-by-elitism, if you will.

Not that he will actually starve, of course. Odds are that he will eventually deign to lower himself to attempt a non-creative job, all the while muttering to himself in Ignatius J. Reilly fashion that he's just too smart for all this and it's a great injustice that he's been lowered to this and the world has been deprived of his specific artistic creations - as though there weren't already too many artists and creators for any mortal being to keep up with, as though his specific contribution were at all significantly different from anyone else's that its lack diminishes the rest by its absence to that extent.

# ? Jun 4, 2019 20:29

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# ? May 24, 2024 15:45

Jeffrey of YOSPOS: Dec 22, 2005; GET LOSE, YOU CAN'T COMPARE WITH MY POWERS

FMguru posted:

Screwball comedies are things like All About Eve, The Front Page, Bringing Up Baby, &c.

I think betrays you as something of a film nerd - colloquially "screwball comedy" would be applied to, at the very least, modern movies like Rat Race or Anchorman, if not Porky's. This is rubbish if you know film history/jargon, but most people don't, and interpreting others' statements as if they ought to seems wrong.

# ? Jun 4, 2019 20:31

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > TG as an Industry: A pendulum swing against the excesses of Rule 0 culture

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