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EasternBronze posted:It sounds more like you're describing people seeking comfort in spiritual and religious beliefs as opposed to medical techniques. BUT I SAW ON TV I CAN BUY HOLY WATER??? Why is that stuff on sale anyways? I’m surprised the FTC/FDA don’t crack down on these bogus products as false advertising
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Jun 4, 2019 01:48
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gently caress me it’s June 4. For the first time people in Hong along can’t use the Victoria Park grounds to hold a vigil. Some boot lickers are holding some carnival. I’m more pissed that younger kids of independent advocates are choosing not to care about June 4 because in their minds “if we aren’t part of china then we shouldnt care”
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Jun 4, 2019 01:50
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GreyjoyBastard posted:"what do you do?" "i'm a rhino rancher for big pharma" Finally found my dream job.
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Jun 4, 2019 01:59
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caberham posted:Hong along this is a glorious autocorrect
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Jun 4, 2019 02:23
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ReindeerF posted:Cool. And you are not understanding what I am saying, which is then it becomes peer-reviewed and then it becomes medicine. This is not debatable. So you agree that some parts of TCM, such as the traditional usage of the sweet worm plant, are actual medicine then. We are on the same page then. EasternBronze posted:It sounds more like you're describing people seeking comfort in spiritual and religious beliefs as opposed to medical techniques. They seek both, because culturally they are either very similar or tied together. Its why they have problems when they just go see a doctor instead of doing both or just seeing a traditional healer (a decent amount of a traditional healers will also recommend you go see a doctor afterwards if you seem them first). And actually a poo poo ton of people do, though I am not familiar with any studies done specifically on Roman Catholic beliefs (This actually happens quite a bit). Its been a fairly big area of research because its further compounding issues that minority and other disadvantage populations face when trying to use the US medical system. Its less "You have to 100% believe what they believe" and more "You need to have an understanding of what their concerns are, how these concerns fit into their concept of health and being well, and the best way to address these concerns other than brushing them off as savages" which happens a poo poo ton. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 03:47 on Jun 4, 2019 |
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Jun 4, 2019 03:39
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caberham posted:BUT I SAW ON TV I CAN BUY HOLY WATER??? I guess if someone went around making medical claims about holy water and selling it as a medical product than yeah that would be bad? Like obviously to make yourself feel better you're going to pray or whatever but if you don't want to die you are 100% going to get chemotherapy. One of these is obviously far more indispensable than the other. EasternBronze fucked around with this message at 04:01 on Jun 4, 2019 |
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Jun 4, 2019 03:53
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EasternBronze posted:I guess if someone went around making medical claims about holy water and selling it as a medical product than yeah that would be bad? Yes, but you are also going to 100% get traditional healing because you don't want to die, if you don't its going to make you feel like you did not receive proper treatment and were not in fact healed (or going through the process of healing). This in turn can lead to a variety of issues like depression which can drastically increase mortality rates in a recovering patient. I am sure a bunch of other studies also exist dealing with patient perception of the healthcare they received and how well they recover. Its not mutually exclusive. Edit: I strongly encourage people who have access to scientific journals to actually read up on this, there is a large body of literature that focuses on Native American traditional healing methods, how they perceive health and well being, and how the medical community could better their patient care and service to these communities if they at least understood these communities concerns. This type of stuff ties into why the medical community by and large sucks at dealing with any communities who are not educated white people. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 04:27 on Jun 4, 2019 |
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Jun 4, 2019 04:19
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Telsa Cola posted:Im not saying TCM is great, or that its the best option available for a lot of people. Just that its not all bullshit, which it often gets painted as. I think you're searching for something that doesn't exist. TCM is the largest, by far, "alternative medicine" system in the world, supported by a huge government industrial complex, with massive corporations making many billions of yuan, profiting from the ignorance of the consumer, decades of propaganda and the greed of the practitioners. I've walked in to TCM pharmacies where they sell roots which promise to cure cancer, for the mere sum of 11,000 RMB. In the west, alternative medicine is relegated to the "we can guarantee it won't harm you" sphere, and when practitioners advise cancer patients to discontinue their chemotherapy, they're prosecuted.
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Jun 4, 2019 04:37
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Trammel posted:I think you're searching for something that doesn't exist. I have never stated that TCM does not have items in it that are bullshit, nor have I stated that even the majority of things in TCM work out chemically. I have only stated that some parts of TCM are verifiably not bullshit, have proven methods of actions, and, as others have pointed out, have been refined, extracted, and utilized in the wider medical world. TCM is also a weird case among traditional medicines due to the factors you mention. TCM functions both as a traditional and alternative medicine system, namely because their system of explaining why things work is nowhere near the biology based system commonly in use. Nevertheless, some of the things they use do work, but never really get discussed in these types of conversations because things that dont work like tiger penis and rhino horn are very much more apparent in the public conscious. The entire thing that spurred this debate was me pointing out that the blanket statement of "TCM is all bullshit and not medicine" does not actually work out if you actually look deeper into it. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 05:04 on Jun 4, 2019 |
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Jun 4, 2019 05:00
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Telsa Cola posted:... namely because their system of explaining why things work is nowhere near the biology based system commonly in use. Again, you're searching for a reality that may not exist. "the biology based system commonly in use" is science based medicine. Everything is questionable, and arguable, but no other explanations have been as provably correct as scientific medicine. Nobody can scientifically explain why Faith Healers or Exorcisms work. It's a booming industry in some parts of the country. For a small fee, either in person, or via the internet, you can have your body freed of the evil spirits causing your ailments. There's no way to measure an evil spirit, or define a devil; they can't be put under a microscope, nor defined or reasoned about due to their interactions with other elements. Yet their adherents will be often be truly grateful and feel benefit from the interactions.
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Jun 4, 2019 05:22
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Trammel posted:Again, you're searching for a reality that may not exist. "the biology based system commonly in use" is science based medicine. Everything is questionable, and arguable, but no other explanations have been as provably correct as scientific medicine. I am not entirely sure what your point is so apologies if this post isn't a great response. TCM does not use the biomedical approach, therefore it is an alternative medicine, even so, some of the plants and materials used contain compounds which have been examined by scientists and proven to be effective in treating the problems they are prescribed for. The fact that these compounds have been then extracted and refined does not negate the actual effective traditional use of said plants and materials. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 05:41 on Jun 4, 2019 |
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Jun 4, 2019 05:33
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Telsa Cola posted:This type of stuff ties into why the medical community by and large sucks at dealing with any communities who are not educated white people. Meanwhile, my health insurance has coverage for educated white peoples' witch doctors (chiropractors)
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Jun 4, 2019 05:36
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Telsa Cola posted:I am not entirely sure what your point is so apologies if this post isn't a great response. TCM does not use the biomedical approach, therefore it is an alternative medicine, even so, some of the plants and materials used contain compounds which have been examined by scientists and proven to be effective in treating the problems they are prescribed for. The fact that these compounds have been then extracted and refined does not negate the actual effective traditional use of said plants and materials. This is like saying we should put sewage in our waters, because before aqueducts and sanitary cisterns were invented in ancient time, people had to drink water contaminated by it but still had thirst slaked. All these many cultures around the world have worked in concert to make modern, global, medicine. There's not even much that is traditional about many of the treatments foisted on unknowing or only partially knowing public. Nobody cares, or should care in this century, that some random medication we use now was once a dangerous highly varying dose from hard to find plants, when it has not only been found how to cultivate the plant but also to achieve reliable dose. And most important of all, is that tons of this traditional crap has been shown to not achieve anything. It is not like people haven't tried them! If you believe there is more neccessary researches to be done that is fine, but we should not be abiding to the sale of the tested-false and the tested-no-results things to the vulnerable public, put it in labs with true informed consent if you must double check. We don't insist on selling people lead pills to eat because an ancient Hungarian legend tells of king being cured of a curse by that poison, do we? Why do the same for Chinese people or anyone else?
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Jun 4, 2019 05:56
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They should be room for TCM, it just should be regulated to useful herbal medication and inoffensive placebos. The actual fraud needs to be clamped down on (another I could see a black market for tiger penis still develop...) Also, I don't see a problem with something like acupuncture as long as something like chiaropraty exists in the west.
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Jun 4, 2019 17:30
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Only the sound of crickets. Noice.
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Jun 4, 2019 23:17
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Ardennes posted:Also, I don't see a problem with something like acupuncture as long as something like chiaropraty exists in the west. Actually chiropracty is also bad and dumb and the fact that it's covered by a lot of insurance plans in America is embarrassing.
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Jun 4, 2019 23:37
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sincx fucked around with this message at 05:44 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Jun 4, 2019 23:45
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nepetaMisekiryoiki posted:This is like saying we should put sewage in our waters, because before aqueducts and sanitary cisterns were invented in ancient time, people had to drink water contaminated by it but still had thirst slaked. First, nice strawman. Second, and I have repeated this about five times so I am going to bold it. People do care , this is not debatable and is well documented, and quite frankly you don't get to decide what people should care or value when it comes to that type of thing. As an aside the collection of these hard to find plants for traditional medicine often is a huge, important role in the process. Growing it in a field or whatever wouldn't cut it in a lot of cases, so that argument doesn't work either. Third, yeah some of it doesn't do poo poo chemically. I have already acknowledged that multiple times. Some of it does however, and basically every doctor and researcher who has works with patient populations who use traditional medicine have been screaming at the wider medical system to adopt them and at least a basic understanding of their use so that they can better serve those populations. For the poo poo that doesn't chemically pan out but is not harmful call it the placebo effect or whatever works for you. If refusing to sell lead pills to ill Hungarian patients lead to a sharp decrease in their health over other cultural groups due to deeply held cultural views on health and wellness not being properly addressed and thus creating complications , I still would not sell them lead pills, or recommend they consume them (duh). I would however, try to work with the Hungarian patient population and traditional Hungarian healers to figure out an acceptable solution which addresses everyone's concerns. Instead of you know, dismissing them as old-fashioned ignorant and gullible savages and going about my day. Because otherwise I would be a lovely healthcare provider. Also as an aside if you were cursed that is one of the things you don't really go to a doctor for. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 01:02 on Jun 5, 2019 |
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Jun 5, 2019 00:23
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Telsa Cola posted:So you agree that some parts of TCM, such as the traditional usage of the sweet worm plant, are actual medicine then. We are on the same page then. This isn't really a point in favor of TCM or alternative medicine in general though. The plant is effective medicine for a reason that has nothing to do with its TCMness (I'm making that a word it's what works here.) There is a framework and theory to TCM, and it's probably not real. If a plant that it used in TCM does work to treat something it isn't because of TCM, it would have worked just the same in Ayurveda or if given by a chiropractor. It's a less extreme way of saying homeopathy can treat dehydration and so that is support of homeopathy as a theory. Ritual is extremely important though for people's mental health I see where you're coming from there, but I'm not sure that fact supports the conclusion you're trying to make. Or at least I don't see how it does. Telsa Cola posted:Edit: I strongly encourage people who have access to scientific journals to actually read up on this, there is a large body of literature that focuses on Native American traditional healing methods, how they perceive health and well being, and how the medical community could better their patient care and service to these communities if they at least understood these communities concerns. This type of stuff ties into why the medical community by and large sucks at dealing with any communities who are not educated white people. You can cite some of it I read this kind of thing sometimes, but you cant really expect everyone to just go looking for it. Anthropology isn't a small field that's an easy Sunday reading.
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Jun 5, 2019 00:26
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BrainDance posted:This isn't really a point in favor of TCM or alternative medicine in general though. The plant is effective medicine for a reason that has nothing to do with its TCMness (I'm making that a word it's what works here.) There is a framework and theory to TCM, and it's probably not real. If a plant that it used in TCM does work to treat something it isn't because of TCM, it would have worked just the same in Ayurveda or if given by a chiropractor. It's a less extreme way of saying homeopathy can treat dehydration and so that is support of homeopathy as a theory. Yeah I get what you are saying. My argument is basically three parts currently. One, that TCM and other traditional medicinal practices are not all bullshit from a biomedical perspective and to claim they are is incorrect. Yes, some of the stuff doesn't actually work and yes some of the stuff can be extraordinarily harmful (TCM as someone pointed out earlier has a whole lot of political and economic poo poo deeply embedded to it). Two, that even the aspects of traditional practices that dont work out biomedically have a tremendous impact on patient well being, and that the outright dismissal often seen as a result of part one is contributing to a major healthcare problem in the United States (and likely other places, I am only versed in stuff happening in the US). And I guess Three is that there are very real and very important reasons why someone might choose to use both the biomedical and the traditional, or why in some instances they may just go with the traditional method. Ill put together a list and toss them in, a lot of the anthropology ones are actually fairly accessible given that they are being written in part for people outside the field. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 01:23 on Jun 5, 2019 |
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Jun 5, 2019 01:00
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It seems to me like a lot of Telsa’s argument ITT is that TCM should actually be much smaller than it is today—that the parts of it that work should be adopted by mainstream medicine and that the parts of it that are harmful should be removed, leaving the parts that don’t do much at all but may have a placebo effect.
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Jun 5, 2019 01:36
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Ardennes posted:They should be room for TCM, it just should be regulated to useful herbal medication and inoffensive placebos. The actual fraud needs to be clamped down on (another I could see a black market for tiger penis still develop...) Also, I don't see a problem with something like acupuncture as long as something like chiaropraty exists in the west. We call this "medicine". And um, the chiropractors and osteopaths are indeed a huge problem and need to be banned from their harmful practice. Telsa Cola posted:First, nice strawman. Where is strawman, trash medicine defense man? Those people should not "care". You really do not seem to get that billions upon billions are racked up by huge corporations by people like you defending their scams on the basis of fringe cases having their feelings preserved. The Chinese people, for instance, have been greatly hurt by how some misguided 1960th PRC policies led to re-popularity of the "traditional medicine" when most had been reduced to rural curiosity and things that grandparents used by the early 20th century. If it does not do thing "chemically" it is not doing anything, since you seem to be using "chemical" to mean things that work. You really seem to not understand that most "traditional" medicine users in this world are simply people who do not know better, usually because of massive marketing campaigns to sell scam to them. And falling back on placebo effect is really quite despicable. Hungarians do not believe that lead pills cure disease you fool. But your willingness to claim we must do it because someone said it was a tradition says it all. Tradition is useless as justification for a practice. It reminds me of what I have read, that in the Americas white doctors have had a long tradition of refusing to take black people's pain feelings seriously, because it is "traditional" that black people feel less pain and that black people don't like and can't be trusted with pain medicines. Perhaps some day you will have a serious illness, and a doctor who insists you should be treated by what your great ancestors used in 1600 as if it matters. You will probably not find it useful or pleasant, especially not if you have European heritage. Pirate Radar posted:It seems to me like a lot of Telsa’s argument ITT is that TCM should actually be much smaller than it is today—that the parts of it that work should be adopted by mainstream medicine and that the parts of it that are harmful should be removed, leaving the parts that don’t do much at all but may have a placebo effect. Surely you understand this is terrible? It is long established that allowing people to receive known false treatment has a high likelihood that they will seek the false treatment in times they should have taken real treatment, because they relied on what was a placebo. Do you know what the osteopaths will do here in France? They will have people who go to them to "treat" thing like colds, and give credit for their cure to the bone-align poo poo. Then they end up going to the same osteopath for a severe infection and can end up in very serious condition from doing this instead of simply going to the real doctor who can prescribe appropriate medication or provide an appropriate alternate treatment method.
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Jun 5, 2019 02:05
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Pirate Radar posted:It seems to me like a lot of Telsa’s argument ITT is that TCM should actually be much smaller than it is today—that the parts of it that work should be adopted by mainstream medicine and that the parts of it that are harmful should be removed, leaving the parts that don’t do much at all but may have a placebo effect. It sounds like the "God of the gaps" argument. Imagine we spend the time and resources to examine every traditional medicine practise and substance, extracting out all the scientifically reproducible findings, refining the beneficial parts down to exact dosages, and incorporating it in to standard medicine worldwide. What's left?
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Jun 5, 2019 02:21
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nepetaMisekiryoiki posted:We call this "medicine". And um, the chiropractors and osteopaths are indeed a huge problem and need to be banned from their harmful practice. You dont need to be a dick, dude. Also you are starting to come off really badly. Again, you don't get to be the judge of what people care about, full stop. This isn't some bullshit about fringe people having their feelings preserved, but already disadvantaged populations getting hosed over because people are ignorant about other worldviews other than their own. nepetaMisekiryoiki posted:
Yes, some stuff doesn't do anything. Some stuff does. The stuff that doesn't do anything chemically may have an important placebo effect to members of certain cultures when used in certain traditional methods. Without said placebo effect they express dissatisfaction with medical care received and may also experience health impacts. Someone being scammed by TCM is a different kind of failure, and we seem to be going around in circles about this but yes, I acknowledge that much of the way the business of TCM operates in China is scummy. Whoosh, I used the lead pill thing as an example to demonstrate my point of what would be an appropriate response to a harmful traditional practice (In full honesty I was about 90% sure you were bullshitting me with the example, didn't bother checking, and thus used your example as an example of my own because it really didnt matter). Tradition is not a useless for a practice is its being done for traditional means, quite the opposite in fact. Hi, I am black. Its not tradition, its systemic racism , racist individuals , and lovely cultural competency, which is hilarious that you brought up since you, uh, seem pretty opposed to the concept judging by your earlier statements. Quite frankly its astonishing that you would use that example then be somewhat offended that "certain fringe (read: minority) groups worried about their feelings" care about different things then you do and might not hold the western biomedical system as the ideal system. Also funny story, traditional medical practices are somewhat commonly practiced by members of the African American community because of reasons I have outlined before. Pirate Radar posted:It seems to me like a lot of Telsa’s argument ITT is that TCM should actually be much smaller than it is today—that the parts of it that work should be adopted by mainstream medicine and that the parts of it that are harmful should be removed, leaving the parts that don’t do much at all but may have a placebo effect. It doesn't need to be adopted wholesale but it needs to be acknowledged/integrated in someway and health care providers in mainstream medicine should be able to either properly address/discuss the concerns or provide resources to the individuals rather than just brushing it off. You don't even need to do some countrywide shift, just make sure people in areas with relevant communities have that ( I know I know funding and poo poo). Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 03:11 on Jun 5, 2019 |
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Jun 5, 2019 02:56
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Trammel posted:It sounds like the "God of the gaps" argument. I was talking about this with my friends yesterday. The TCM industry in china can invest in factories and make all sorts of TCM pills and profit. But to have the TCM industry spend boat loads of money and refining/refuting their theories is not in their interest. Even when proper research happens, the whole field would be narrowed down and not be in the industry’s self interest. Medicine research would probably not spend extra money on narrowing down inconclusive results
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Jun 5, 2019 03:00
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The example of TCM in China is substantively different from the example of, for instance, Native American traditional medicine in the United States, because as Telsa has been pointing out, it’s key that for Native Americans, the mainstream medical system is a foreign system that often isn’t familiar with their culture and values, isn’t staffed by their people, and is almost always systematically biased against them. But in China, the choice isn’t “go to the hospital and/or go to a doctor who knows and cares about who I am and where I come from.” You can go to a Chinese hospital and talk to a Chinese doctor trained in China, be examined with Chinese machines, and receive medicine made in China. The same isn’t true for minority groups. Treating TCM in China the same way as other traditional forms of medicine is looking at it with a very American mindset—Chinese people are a minority in America, so of course, the same issues that confront them in America must be present in China too?
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Jun 5, 2019 03:08
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Telsa Cola posted:You dont need to be a dick, dude. Also you are starting to come off really badly. You are being dick by advocating for "this group of people doesn't deserve the same medical standards as other people" and "it's ok to support looting people by selling them junk medicine"? I am not the judge, the history of medicine is the judge. You also keep making bullshit handwaves, instead of saying what specific practices you want to be done. There is not such a thing as "important culture placebo effect". Especially as I reiterate, that many of these "cultural" things are things that are being actively promoted, or were not even historic in first place, but are now sold to people as traditional.Like even your insistence on TCM, there is no "TCM". There is millions of ideas from hundreds of distinct cultures within and without China, that some Chinese person may have used once, and in the modern day you have random chunk mashed together as a singular system despite sometimes even having opposing core concepts behind them. All this same thing applies to all of the fake medicine you advocate for, in every country The appropriate response to people demanding poison pill is to not give it to them. There is no such thing as "western biomedical system". It is global system, and it's really hosed that you try to pretend the non-Western people aren't involved. That whole concept is basically a thing cooked up by quacks and people who randomly grab false traditions from other country to make a buck. Also you really don't see how racism is a tradition among whites? Perhaps you only want to call things tradition, when they are also thing you like for some reason? It is as much a tradition for whites to abuse black people as it is for Chinese to need to not be given real medicine. How about also you state "tradition" medicines you claim to be practiced? Do we get to call that American church going around telling people to drink bleach to cure all disease tradition yet or did they not claim an old enough founder for you tastes. Here is how we should acknowledge fake medicine: we acknowledge it to be fake, and ban as much of it as possible from being shoved on people who think they can trust people who get to call themselves doctor. You know it is like how it is no longer legal to randomly toss radium in your medicine and claim it cures things, it is how we no longer let people grind up random roots for flavoring in alcohol and sell it out the back of a cart to cure cancer. I don't see you demanding that we repeal those bans because someone's grandparent bought those 100 years ago and made it tradition, but you will defend lead poison pill for some reason. Also surely you know this is a China thread? That is why I focus so much on the Chinese, quack-defender. And that are easily the people who have been most injured behind defense of bad medicine, besides of perhaps the Indian population being hurt by their local "tradition" medcine - which should know does in fact include much use of poisonous heavy metals as other cultures have had in their "tradition" from time to time. Pirate Radar posted:The example of TCM in China is substantively different from the example of, for instance, Native American traditional medicine in the United States, because as Telsa has been pointing out, it’s key that for Native Americans, the mainstream medical system is a foreign system that often isn’t familiar with their culture and values, isn’t staffed by their people, and is almost always systematically biased against them. But in China, the choice isn’t “go to the hospital and/or go to a doctor who knows and cares about who I am and where I come from.” You can go to a Chinese hospital and talk to a Chinese doctor trained in China, be examined with Chinese machines, and receive medicine made in China. The same isn’t true for minority groups. Treating TCM in China the same way as other traditional forms of medicine is looking at it with a very American mindset—Chinese people are a minority in America, so of course, the same issues that confront them in America must be present in China too? What is the unified Native American traditional medicine? From what I understand, they are thousands of individual cultures who at most can be generalized into dozens of related culture-spectrums. It is the same problem as trying to pretend there is a real TCM besides things that a scammer can get away with calling TCM. And from what I understand of how the US in particular handle things, most of those Natives are also straight not receiving any healthcare, or only most cursory treatment after long journeys and much expense from where they live. Because their populations were moved easily thousands of kilometers from where they lived before colonization, to places that white people in charge still refuse to build proper infrastructure in.
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Jun 5, 2019 03:38
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nepetaMisekiryoiki posted:What is the unified Native American traditional medicine? From what I understand, they are thousands of individual cultures who at most can be generalized into dozens of related culture-spectrums. It is the same problem as trying to pretend there is a real TCM besides things that a scammer can get away with calling TCM. This is correct, I was using “Native American” generally for the sake of example when the term actually encompasses a large number of different groups with their own traditions. It is generally true, however, that the mainstream medical system in the US is either unavailable to Native Americans or does not prioritize giving them proper treatment, both for reasons of systemic bias against them.
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Jun 5, 2019 03:52
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Trammel posted:It sounds like the "God of the gaps" argument. It's not, and hes not exactly wrong but it sounds like you're talking past each other or not having the same kind of conversation. Traditional medicines and rituals do not cure any cancer. But, people from different cultures can show psychological symptoms differently. This is on a more fundamental level than "I believe in this God so I believe if I feel stressed I think praying will make me feel better" but more like Japanese people regardless of belief or education showing more physical symptoms of anxiety than Americans, something more resembling a physical illness even though it's not. That was just the example a professor I had would use, there's more to it. And so kind of in the same way people from different cultures might respond in unexpected but important ways to things that might otherwise be nonsense. Doesn't mean they work to treat illness, or that they're actual medicine, but they can still be important since "wellbeing" and "physical health" are not always very different, and it's fundamental enough to their culture that it's not just that they gotta get educated. But there's definitely a line between "traditional cultural practice" and "snake oil." I don't know exactly where to draw the line but I think TCM has really crossed over into snake oil a long time ago. TCM actively harms people, TCM prevents people from getting actual real treatment, and in 2019 I don't think there are many people who get anything of value from the ritual part of it (since you're just getting it from a doctor anyway and Chinese people do use real medicine for the same things.) Except maybe acupuncture, that cup thing, and uhhh, hot water? Maybe a better example is holy water to Catholics, holy water is free (anyone selling it is definitely selling snake oil. You're not supposed to, it's available to anyone for free.) It's a ritual behavior Catholics use that helps their wellbeing in a way real medicines can't and aren't even trying to, and Catholics are not (usually) against actual real life medicine anyway. I think this is what hes getting at, but maybe not understanding what TCM is and what its role/marketing is in China now.
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Jun 5, 2019 03:54
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BrainDance posted:It's not, and hes not exactly wrong but it sounds like you're talking past each other or not having the same kind of conversation. How much of that really have any relation to particular tradition though? Among plain old Europeans for example, individually of the majority culture throughout their individual countries and regions, there are also a great deal of us who consistently rate real doctors of "not caring" as much as their favored quack practitioner does. And that is probably most down to both real doctors tending to have tight schedules and not always best funds, and also the quack can devote so much time to con-man's trust building techniques and fancy decoration. When they hook a repeat customer they can often score major profit on pushing quack medicine from cheap components too, so it is very important for them to build a trusting treatment room manner to keep their bullshit believed. It would be nice if every real doctor could also afford to devote that time and perceived care too of course. But it is not that doing real medicine prevents it. And it is not their particular quack traditions that enables the quack doctors to feign their caring either. Such that if say all Japanese clients always looked more anxious at the real doctor, the solution is to try to have those doctors learn habits to diffuse anxiety, rather than having doctors also push some old "tradition" treatment, if you follow.
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Jun 5, 2019 04:08
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It's much more complicated than that, being anxious at the doctor is going to look different depending on the person's cultural background. White Americans aren't some neutral blank slate either, they have their own baggage influencing how they present disorders and what they respond to. The whole "panic attacks feel like a heart attack and so people go to the hospital thinking they're having a heart attack" thing isn't universal. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/261757858_Cross-Cultural_Aspects_of_Anxiety_Disorders https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0022395618303789?via%3Dihub But I'm not gonna argue against medical doctors showing more compassion and care. In America minorities do get worse care. When we're talking about TCM in China though the doctors giving out the western medicine are the same or not very different from the doctors giving out TCM. And, even in countries where the group with the traditional practice is a minority, the solution is mostly increasing awareness of the patient's culture and using their cultures values as a part of the treatment. This is a pretty specific paper but I think of a lot of it fits other situations too. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4589258/ I'm looking at this as a psychological issue. Because I think that's what culturally sensitive treatment is and also that's all I really know about, I don't know too much about anthropology (which is why I asked the guy for some stuff to read.) I still think actual medicine is the only thing that's gonna treat cancer and that there's a whole lot of snake oil out there. But I don't think all traditional medical treatments are either real medicine or snake oil.
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Jun 5, 2019 04:39
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nepetaMisekiryoiki posted:You are being dick by advocating for "this group of people doesn't deserve the same medical standards as other people" and "it's ok to support looting people by selling them junk medicine"? I am literally advocating for them to receive the standards of health care they want. Here is an example of the study suggesting the VA add traditional medical practices to their routine for native american veterans. https://dx.doi.org/10.2105%2FAJPH.2014.302140. There are a bout a hundred other studies like this with similar recommendations, based on the patients own request and judgment of their own healthcare. nepetaMisekiryoiki posted:
I have repeatedly talked about how that actually works within their belief system and I am not going to over it again. Other posters have also mentioned the benefits of ritual on mental health, so this is not only me here. Studies on this topic are spread out in both psychical and mental health journals because their is a big mental component to how these populations view health.https://rdcu.be/bFCcL ] is one example but by no means the only one. nepetaMisekiryoiki posted:
Also wrong. I am not really sure how you would even begin argue that given the existence of hundreds of competing concepts of medicine, health, and wellness, and treatment. You could argue that its the best, most correct system, but that is not what you are saying here. And no, the concept is used by healthcare professionals and researchers because, again not everyone uses the concept and they needed a term and definition to base comparisons on. nepetaMisekiryoiki posted:
Tradition does not solely have to deal with age, dude. It deals with connections and ties to certain aspects of your life/worldview/family/whatever. Tradition implies a deeper, meaningful connection, not just a chronologist age that has to be reached. Being careful with what and how your provide healthcare is important, but you you need listen to what peoples concerns, and understand that their concerns and fears that need to be addressed might not even make sense to you but are equally valid. Access to traditional healthcare practices, which you deem fake, is literally in the UN charter for the Deceleration of Rights for Indigenous People. Also, I literally did not defend the lead poison pill, surely you understand that. nepetaMisekiryoiki posted:
I am going to address this point at the end since it ties into someone elses post, on to the next one nepetaMisekiryoiki posted:
There is no real unified Native American Traditional medicine, because as you mention they are hundreds of different cultures. That being said there are some common trends and worldview concepts. Things like sweat lodges for instance are fairly widespread (California, Mesoamerica, the Plains). But yes its a broad term for a variety of different practices, some of which are common with one another and some of are not. The same general catch all phrasing is used for a variety of areas (China included). Some reservations have tribal clinics (they are not great and perpetually underfunded). Lack of easy access to health care is likely one of the reasons traditional medicine gets used, but even in patients with access to healthcare (the VA article, the Urban article) they still desire and request traditional medicine practices. BrainDance posted:
BrainDance somewhat nails it, and did a better job explaining it then I have. I somewhat agree with your position on TCM too, TCM got co-opted politically and economically and now there is a serious problem with it all. I am hesitant to suggest or support that there is only negligible population who gets any ritual benefit from it, but I see the argument that since its so mainstream now its been so commercialized. I get that the role of TCM in China is currently pretty drat bad. But I guess I see those issues (the constant use and support of TCM, the contamination of herbs and whatever with heavy metals, scams, snake oil, etc) as the results of first the political support and focus that TCM received under Mao and then the result of people hoping to make a quick buck, rather then an intrinsic failure of TCM. Also yeah there is likely a whooooole lot of poo poo in there that isnt actually traditional but someone added in with a cover story to make a quick buck. The issue we have is when people take TCM and other traditional medicine systems and go "Well this is clearly bullshit and there is nothing there". A lot of the studies point out that the biomedical approach (or whatever you want to call it) and a traditional approach can be complementary and help address gaps in one another. BrainDance, Ill try to get some dedicated anthropology articles for you, I only really got a selection of ones from medical journals because to be blunt they would be received and believed better. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 05:07 on Jun 5, 2019 |
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Jun 5, 2019 04:40
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Your post have become rather unreadable. Please stop trying to pretend that some patients requesting things justifies support of entire global industries of fake medicines. You also keep claiming you talked about how things work in belief systems, but nowhere have you actually done so, you just keep waving platitudes about belief system that don't add up. It is especially galling that you are trying to defend nebulous "traditions" for another continent in China thread? It is also funny how you claim you don't defend fake medicine, yet claim there are "competing concepts" as if there is truth in chiropractics or the bleach church or bloodletting people to treat the flu. You should stop buying into what the people literally trying to poison and rob you and the rest of the global population under guise of "alternative medicines" are telling you. Maybe learn the concept that there is no monolith of "western medicine", there is a global medicine that has many specialties doing and trying many things every day. Put up or shut up: list all the things you believe are valid and state why each one needs to be done if you are going to defend the fake medicines, because defending the concept as some sort of useful good is acutely dangerous - it encourages people to treat all of it as likely to be true rather than only very limited sections being even non-danger. Or accept that your hand waving "tradition" appeal is just that, of hand-waving. Any sane person can outright see that there are vast ranges of tradition we should do not do today. You mention a sweat lodge, what is different to that from a sauna or a spa? Why does that need to be treated as a medical intervention instead of a relaxing time that makes you feel good? Hospitals and communities should obviously have a lot of places that are nice to relax in but you don't prescribe "watch tv" or anything. Even though it is usually fine for a patient who likes to watch tv to watch things while they are in hospital. Any sane person can see that all of our global cultures have things that we are quite glad we no longer do, even though it may have caused much strife when the various cultures were stopping them - just look at how angry some countries still get if they are told they must stop corporal punishment of children. I also must reiterate that "well we can't do this for cancer treatment, but is it so bad if we do it for a cold" thought is extremely dangerous. Because if you tell people that some kind of doctor is valid for minor things, they will behave as if it is valid for serious things, and that kills. It is somewhat funny when that happens to rich famous people like Steve Jobs, but tons of the poor have also died from the same fallacy, across the world. Telsa Cola posted:The issue we have is when people take TCM and other traditional medicine systems and go "Well this is clearly bullshit and there is nothing there". A lot of the studies point out that the biomedical approach (or whatever you want to call it) and a traditional approach can be complementary and help address gaps in one another. And on this particular point: your issue is with the truth then. How many more provings that acupuncture poses risk of infection from careless doctors and has no benefit different from merely poking people without breaking skin do you need before you shut up and stop saying "but it is important to tradition so we shouldn't stop it"? Is it 1000? That is just one "tradition" of many of course. But its one of the ones people like you will say "but maybe it still works somehow" just because it was made popular. If you really think there is some secret hidden things, that is fine, it can be found out in proper testing environments with people who have been thoroughly warned of the dangers. But it must be stamped out of general public access, and those who promote it must not be allowed to operate without punishment from the authorities who would rightfully take away a medical license from a surgeon who consistently killed patients on the table from carelessness. Tradition is no defense to continue a practice, again to see the prior practices of rampant bloodletting or careless use of radiating materials.
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Jun 5, 2019 05:49
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Western medicine is responsible for such great hits as SSRIs, xanax and short acting benzodiazepines that absolutely lose efficacy past 2 weeks, and the practice of cherrypicking and submitting only the studies that make your drug look better than what actually does. Of course, this is all better than the traditional system of prescribing things via observation, if only they had the foresight and capital to conduct multiple, expensive trials or just bullshit their way through approval with no real tangible benefit for the patient: quote:In the follow-up studies, only 19 of the 93 drugs clearly extended the lives of the patients taking them, according to the study, published in the latest JAMA Internal Medicine.
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Jun 5, 2019 05:54
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Medicine, religion and ayahuasca in Catalonia. Considering ayahuasca networks from a medical anthropology perspective https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S095539591630264X Discusses the blend between medicine and religion/worldview/ritual. Also discusses the hegemonic nature of the biomedical system. Indigenous Healing Practices among Rural Elderly African Americans https://doi.org/10.1080/10349120601008605 Discusses the use of traditional healing practices by African American populations, a variety of reasons are suggested (economic access to biomedical care, culture, distrust of the medical system). Suggests that indigenous practices are further examined to better care for these populations. Medicine keepers: Issues in indigenous health https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/713658247 Written by an indigenous women, offers her perspective on health and wellness, why the biomedical model does not work for her, and various other issues. The article is not written like a standard academic article, just a heads up. Promoting Healing and Restoring Trust: Policy Recommendations for Improving Behavioral Health Care for American Indian/Alaska Native Adolescents https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10464-010-9347-4 Literature reviewing chronic stress factors which impact Native American Adolescent populations health, 4 of the focal points highlighted have to deal with lack of traditional medicine use. The Efficacy of Traditional Medicine: Current Theoretical and Methodological Issues https://www.jstor.org/stable/649723?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents A good breakdown in what Traditional Medicine is, how its used, and the expectations with it (and why this causes problems). Use of Traditional Health Practices among Native Americans in a Primary Care Setting https://www.jstor.org/stable/3767997?seq=8#metadata_info_tab_contents Looks at the prevalence and use of traditional health practices among Native Americans, notes increased uses of traditional methods in areas where the bio medicine is often lacking, such as pain management Inflammation and Native American medicine: the role of botanicals https://doi.org/10.1093/ajcn/72.2.339 Discusses plant use, plant spirits as the method of action, and the need to collect said plants in a certain way. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 06:41 on Jun 5, 2019 |
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Jun 5, 2019 06:23
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Pirate Radar posted:The example of TCM in China is substantively different from the example of, for instance, Native American traditional medicine in the United States, because as Telsa has been pointing out, it’s key that for Native Americans, the mainstream medical system is a foreign system that often isn’t familiar with their culture and values, isn’t staffed by their people, and is almost always systematically biased against them. But in China, the choice isn’t “go to the hospital and/or go to a doctor who knows and cares about who I am and where I come from.” You can go to a Chinese hospital and talk to a Chinese doctor trained in China, be examined with Chinese machines, and receive medicine made in China. The same isn’t true for minority groups. Treating TCM in China the same way as other traditional forms of medicine is looking at it with a very American mindset—Chinese people are a minority in America, so of course, the same issues that confront them in America must be present in China too? This is a good point, but a modified version of Telsa Cola’s argument still obtains. I think it’s very likely that if someone went and researched the topic, they would find that wellbeing according to TCM is intrinsic to the concept of wellbeing among probably the majority of the people in China. TCM terminology, though perhaps misused and poorly understood, and quite likely bullshit in the first place, has extreme currency here. It’s not at all hard to imagine that if people are not treated with at least some recognition of the ideology that lies at the core of their sense of being healthy and well, they might do badly. It likely doesn’t matter to them if the doctor looks Chinese and speaks Chinese and the machine is made in China if the medicinal system is fundamentally western and the terminology both incomprehensible and clearly foreign. It’s still a kind of very arrogant, colonialist attitude that enlightened westerners know what’s best for everyone in the world and they’d all do better if they just threw out their ignorant rubbish. I’m not about to go to bat for how TCM is practiced in China. The system here is awful and deeply in need of reform. I’ve seen first hand someone go through a terrible ordeal because they went to a hospital and were prescribed Chinese medicine for an infection. But the psychological need for alternate sources of treatment isn’t going anywhere any time soon. CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:Western medicine is responsible for such great hits as SSRIs, xanax and short acting benzodiazepines that absolutely lose efficacy past 2 weeks, and the practice of cherrypicking and submitting only the studies that make your drug look better than what actually does. In what way is this relevant to the conversation? We all know about corruption in our medical system and hopefully nobody here thinks western medicine is perfect or has all the answers. But if you got an infection, would you get acupuncture or antibiotics?
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Jun 5, 2019 06:34
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Heithinn Grasida posted:This is a good point, but a modified version of Telsa Cola’s argument still obtains. I think it’s very likely that if someone went and researched the topic, they would find that wellbeing according to TCM is intrinsic to the concept of wellbeing among probably the majority of the people in China. TCM terminology, though perhaps misused and poorly understood, and quite likely bullshit in the first place, has extreme currency here. It’s not at all hard to imagine that if people are not treated with at least some recognition of the ideology that lies at the core of their sense of being healthy and well, they might do badly. It likely doesn’t matter to them if the doctor looks Chinese and speaks Chinese and the machine is made in China if the medicinal system is fundamentally western and the terminology both incomprehensible and clearly foreign. It’s still a kind of very arrogant, colonialist attitude that enlightened westerners know what’s best for everyone in the world and they’d all do better if they just threw out their ignorant rubbish. I’m not sure you’re... arguing with me? The fact that many people still see mainstream modern medicine as inherently Western is a problem I’ve acknowledged, and it often comes as a product of mainstream medicine not doing enough to serve the communities it’s meant to take care of. I think the thread has begun arguing “The current system is bad” versus “if it were changed, it could be better” but those points aren’t actually opposed to each other. I would say though that medical terminology being incomprehensible and clearly foreign isn’t a problem unique to China. I wouldn’t know what a lot of medical terms mean without a dictionary or chart.
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Jun 5, 2019 06:48
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Pirate Radar posted:I’m not sure you’re... arguing with me? The fact that many people still see mainstream modern medicine as inherently Western is a problem I’ve acknowledged, and it often comes as a product of mainstream medicine not doing enough to serve the communities it’s meant to take care of. Yeah thats basically it if I am understanding you correctly, communities try to engage, find that the system doesn't address their concerns, derides them, or actively harms them, which causes them to bounce off it hard and label it as "Not for us". Its why stressing culturally competency is important.
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Jun 5, 2019 07:02
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Pirate Radar posted:I’m not sure you’re... arguing with me? The fact that many people still see mainstream modern medicine as inherently Western is a problem I’ve acknowledged, and it often comes as a product of mainstream medicine not doing enough to serve the communities it’s meant to take care of. I guess we basically agree. I think everyone in the thread agrees that the current system is bad, rather the argument is over how it should be changed: whether TCM is important in a reduced and more heavily regulated supplementary role to mainstream medicine or whether it’s entirely worthless. It’s possible I misread the discussion and I almost certainly got confused about who said what, though. I do think that there might be a difference between how people see medical terminology in the west and in China. “Foreign” here doesn’t just mean foreign to one’s knowledge and experience but also clearly not traditionally Chinese. But I’m not sure how impactful that is. My feeling is that western medicine is generally well received here. But for most westerners, there is a much more conclusive sense in which “medicine” means “western” medicine and it is the primary authority on whether someone is well or not, which is definitely not the case in China.
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Jun 5, 2019 07:11
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nepetaMisekiryoiki posted:
Sure, the list is whatever is a traditional treatment/solution for they problem they have, as long as it is not detrimental in the long run to their health/involve murdering someone/various other instances which I am sure you will pull out as an AHAH! moment. This can range from smudging, the application of various herbs and minerals, whatever. Why does it need to be done? Lack of traditional care is linked to chronic stress and other health issues which can further compound already present illnesses. These complications likely arise because the patient IS NOT PROPERLY TREATED in their opinion , and in many cases have their concerns dismissed when it is brought up. This chronic stress may hinder proper recovery even if the patient has received biomedical care. By either providing traditional care or resources for the individual to pursue which works for them culturally you remove this stress factor. Even if the traditional medicine or whatever is just hot water, the fact that the patient now feels like they received proper care is beneficial for their recovery. The systems are not mutually exclusive, and many of the papers on the topic recommend a closer integrative look at it all. There are several key differences, a sauna/spa is secular, a sweat lodge is not. You dont just "go" to a sweat lodge, its a whole ritual process. Often times it deals with purification, I cant give you a comprehensive list of what one goes to a sweat lodge for because I honestly don't know and some of that information is closely guarded. But you might say go to a sweat lodge to help recover from being severely sick to purge whatever is causing it from your system. Well the thing is is that these communities have by and large been prevented from preforming these traditions until recently. These traditions were quite literally genocided out of main stream either through mass killings or through boarding schools, family separation, etc etc. Turns out the removal of a large part of these communities traditions and worldviews as tremendous psychical and mental health impacts. By supporting these communities in their efforts to recover their traditional ways, including their traditional ways of healing, you are in fact helping undo some of the damage done by the forced absence of these traditions. The ones you are currently saying need to go. I suggest you read up on the some of the causative factors on why certain communities (African Americans, Native Americans, of the top of my head) struggle with health and stress issues. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 07:23 on Jun 5, 2019 |
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Jun 5, 2019 07:17
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