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Liquid Communism posted:At this point I've gotten to where if I hear a Paladin's player make any riff on 'Deus Vult' I'm just done. One of my favorite D&D characters was a "Good Before Lawful" paladin I played who systematically killed his way through the hierarchy of his own church who were killing anyone that was "insufficiently human" in order to keep knowledge of the return of magic hidden from the general public.
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Jun 5, 2019 21:32
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It's a shame Lawful Good is so hard for some people to conceptualize/roleplay. A great example I've given players before is Carrot Ironfoundersson from the Discworld series. He's extremely devoted to the law, but he's also extremely caring and would avoid a fight at absolutely all cost. When he is forced to fight, he uses just as much force as he needs to solve the problem, never more. Paladins even rely on charisma, and Captain Carrot exudes so much of the stuff that he's able to diplomatically solve almost any problem. The fact that he's 6 feet tall and looks like Liam Neeson certainly help things Punkinhead fucked around with this message at 21:51 on Jun 5, 2019 |
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Jun 5, 2019 21:44
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Carrot is great. However, I'd suggest good ol' Sam Vimes as the true Lawful Good paragon of Ankh-Morpork. Vimes articulates 'lawful' as a means towards 'good' and 'good' as the only goal of 'lawful.' He's also someone with really underhanded instincts, so a Vimes Paladin trying very hard to not Fall is a great image. The only problem is that he 100% would never choose to be a Paladin.
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Jun 5, 2019 21:53
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paladins but as UA avatars with exclusively unaware avatars
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Jun 5, 2019 22:01
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Vimes would 100% become a Palidin in a fit of self-destructive spite.
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Jun 5, 2019 22:04
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Vimes would become a Paladin specifically because some uppity god told him he wasn't allowed to.
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Jun 5, 2019 22:06
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I just googled "Sam vimes alignment" to see if any other nerds thought about it, and hilariously enough the 3rd or 4th result is a 1d4chan article about avoiding Lawful Stupid. 1d4chan posted:Required Reading: Discworld by Terry Pratchett, in particular anything having to do with the Witches of Lancre or the Ankh Morpork City Watch, especially Sam Vimes and Carrot Ironfoundersson. Carrot might not be very savvy when it comes to subtlety, but he is very much a good man, if a bit odd and literal at times. Some folks would argue that Vimes is Chaotic Good rather than Lawful Good, but fighting over alignments is for the alignment page -- the point is that he and Carrot are decidedly not Lawful Stupid (and it's heavily implied that Carrot's 'dumb innocence' might just be a ploy to make people underestimate him). I definitely think he's more Lawful Good. I don't really remember him ever breaking the law or even going against Vetinaris orders, but then again I've only read up to Jingo. thespaceinvader posted:Vimes would become a Paladin specifically because some uppity god told him he wasn't allowed to. Haystack posted:Vimes would 100% become a Palidin in a fit of self-destructive spite. Extremely accurate posts Punkinhead fucked around with this message at 22:17 on Jun 5, 2019 |
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Jun 5, 2019 22:14
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PinheadSlim posted:I definitely think he's more Lawful Good. I don't really remember him ever breaking the law or even going against Vetinaris orders, but then again I've only read up to Jingo. You really want to read Night Watch, at least.
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Jun 5, 2019 22:19
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Vimes is definitely LG, he's pretty much the epitome of LG played right, as opposed to Carrot who whilst not Lawful Stupid, definitely tends in that direction a lot, especially in his earlier appearances. Vimes is all about Good Is Not Nice, and the law of morality not necessarily lining up with the law of the land, especially when it applies to the poor and dispossessed.
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Jun 5, 2019 22:20
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thespaceinvader posted:especially when it applies to the poor and dispossessed. The orphans/widows pension fund. Every time it gets brought up I lose it. Real life is too good for someone like Vimes, he could only exist in fantasy. I may have a crush on him, lol. Mors Rattus posted:You really want to read Night Watch, at least. Absolutely, I'm working up to it. I want to read a few more before I get to it, though. I know the reading order is totally optional but I'd like to read a few more specific books before I dive into it.
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Jun 5, 2019 22:25
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thespaceinvader posted:Vimes is definitely LG, he's pretty much the epitome of LG played right, as opposed to Carrot who whilst not Lawful Stupid, definitely tends in that direction a lot, especially in his earlier appearances. Vimes also understands that rules lawyering to get the right outcome is neither bad nor unlawful. He also knows when it's better to follow the spirit or letter of the law.
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Jun 5, 2019 22:28
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Alignments have to be considered in the context of the situation. The law in question is "Lord Vetinari's regime," and in that context Vimes obviously considers Vetinari his rightful boss.
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Jun 5, 2019 22:34
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Liquid Communism posted:At this point I've gotten to where if I hear a Paladin's player make any riff on 'Deus Vult' I'm just done. PinheadSlim posted:The orphans/widows pension fund. Every time it gets brought up I lose it. Real life is too good for someone like Vimes, he could only exist in fantasy. I may have a crush on him, lol. I often toyed with the idea of making it so that all good-aligned religions in my homebrew games have some form of mandatory charity system, its level of formalness depending on said religion's law-chaos axis. It then becomes an obligation to get one's Cleric spells/class features rather than something you can choose whether or not to do as an adventurer. Granted, this would be for games like 5e where money is no object and not a prerequisite for an effective PC build.
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Jun 5, 2019 23:01
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Kurieg posted:One of my favorite D&D characters was a "Good Before Lawful" paladin I played who systematically killed his way through the hierarchy of his own church who were killing anyone that was "insufficiently human" in order to keep knowledge of the return of magic hidden from the general public.
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Jun 5, 2019 23:18
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The alignment chart is kinda bad for exactly this sort of reason. I'd say both Carrot and Vimes are Lawful Good but Carrot is an emphasis on the Lawful and Vimes on the Good.
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Jun 5, 2019 23:20
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Clearly, what we need are finer gradations of alignment. In this essay, I will
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Jun 5, 2019 23:25
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but what would vimes be in ars magica
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Jun 5, 2019 23:30
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Impermanent posted:but what would vimes be in ars magica a dude in armor with a sword and a bell which is enough for most problems
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Jun 5, 2019 23:36
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Impermanent posted:but what would vimes be in ars magica Well VI is vim and ME is mentem, so he's a power-mind. And the "s" makes it plural. He's a big brain genius is what he is.
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Jun 5, 2019 23:36
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Impermanent posted:but what would vimes be in ars magica A Companion.
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Jun 5, 2019 23:44
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PinheadSlim posted:It's a shame Lawful Good is so hard for some people to conceptualize/roleplay. It's not so much that any alignment is hard to conceptualize/roleplay as it is that alignment is loving stupid and bears no relationship to how people, cultures, or allegiances actually work. It was invented by a brokebrain libertarian whose idea of lawful good actually was pretty close to the negative example someone gave earlier, and has persisted as a mechanic only out of sheer momentum.
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Jun 6, 2019 00:08
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It sucks to see WotC's D&D side of things be so bad at this stuff because WotC's MtG department (entirely different people) are probably the best mainstream gaming company for this kind of thing.
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Jun 6, 2019 00:14
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:It's not so much that any alignment is hard to conceptualize/roleplay as it is that alignment is loving stupid and bears no relationship to how people, cultures, or allegiances actually work. Unfortunately that stuff doesn't move units. Perhaps if they had skulls on their armor?
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Jun 6, 2019 00:21
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Zurui posted:Clearly, what we need are finer gradations of alignment. In this essay, I will http://walkingmind.evilhat.com/2019/05/11/capitalizing-on-alignment/
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Jun 6, 2019 00:37
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ZeroCount posted:It sucks to see WotC's D&D side of things be so bad at this stuff because WotC's MtG department (entirely different people) are probably the best mainstream gaming company for this kind of thing.
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Jun 6, 2019 00:47
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The ideal Lawful Good archetype, if you want to even use boxes like alignment, is Captain America. A lawful good will place what is right above the system. While someone who places the system above what is right is lawful neutral.
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Jun 6, 2019 00:47
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Fanfiction alert, but there's a fun little story someone wrote a while ago where Sam Vimes becomes, quite against his will, the God of Coppers. https://archiveofourown.org/works/244534
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Jun 6, 2019 00:53
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kingcom posted:The ideal Lawful Good archetype, if you want to even use boxes like alignment, is Captain America. A lawful good will place what is right above the system. While someone who places the system above what is right is lawful neutral.
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Jun 6, 2019 01:28
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thespaceinvader posted:Vimes is definitely LG, he's pretty much the epitome of LG played right, as opposed to Carrot who whilst not Lawful Stupid, definitely tends in that direction a lot, especially in his earlier appearances. Vimes specifically is a study of a lawful good character in a neutral evil (at best) society. He spends most of his adult life trying to drink himself to death to try and escape all the injustice he can't prevent.
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Jun 6, 2019 01:41
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Sweet. Now there are 63 alignments.
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Jun 6, 2019 02:56
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kingcom posted:The ideal Lawful Good archetype, if you want to even use boxes like alignment, is Captain America. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 14:16 on Jun 13, 2019 |
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Jun 6, 2019 03:19
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Liquid Communism posted:Vimes specifically is a study of a lawful good character in a neutral evil (at best) society. He spends most of his adult life trying to drink himself to death to try and escape all the injustice he can't prevent. Post-Carrot, Vimes is a study of a character who has decided that maybe he can win some of those fights, and has dug in for a war. And he has, consistently, won them. I like Vimes.
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Jun 6, 2019 03:56
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Liquid Communism posted:https://twitter.com/dms_guild/status/1136026879377330177 Okay, sure, I guess if you want to support this but why not one among many other things? You're failing the very basic tenants of this dang splat: quote:Tenets of Support
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Jun 6, 2019 04:48
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Joe Slowboat posted:Post-Carrot, Vimes is a study of a character who has decided that maybe he can win some of those fights, and has dug in for a war. And he has, consistently, won them. I like Vimes. I admire Vimes. He knows, deep down in his cardboard soles, that it would be so easy to be the bad guy and nobody else would blame him. Every day, he gets up, stares himself in the face, and says 'gently caress that', because the one person who would is looking back at him. quote:“Beating people up in little rooms…he knew where that led. And if you did it for a good reason, you’d do it for a bad one. You couldn’t say “we’re the good guys” and do bad-guy things.”
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Jun 6, 2019 05:22
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kingcom posted:A lawful good will place what is right above the system. While someone who places the system above what is right is lawful neutral. Okay but then what is Chaotic Good???????
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Jun 6, 2019 07:07
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Zurui posted:Clearly, what we need are finer gradations of alignment. In this essay, I will 
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Jun 6, 2019 07:22
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Lemon-Lime posted:Okay but then what is Chaotic Good??????? Using the system to get at your goals is Lawful, even if you twist it so that it fits your Good. Chaotic Good is the vigilante, not the cop
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Jun 6, 2019 08:16
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Lemon-Lime posted:Okay but then what is Chaotic Good??????? Ironman.
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Jun 6, 2019 08:18
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Lemon-Lime posted:Okay but then what is Chaotic Good???????
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Jun 6, 2019 08:28
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All alignment arguments can be settled by simply adopting the alignment system from the Freebase LARP ruleset
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Jun 6, 2019 08:33
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