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pseudanonymous posted:I don't think that's true. There's this broad representation that throughout history women were treated universally like chattel, and most historians now are arguing that while that occasionally happened, and noble daughters, in particular, were often highly pressured to marry to secure alliance, the vast majority of peasants got married because they wanted to (often later, in the mid-later twenties). Certainly, in many instances, women had reduced property rights and there was no law against marital rape, but the experiences of most women throughout history do not equate to the often depicted France/Brittain noble daughters being used to secure alliances. Real world aside, in the books there's a tradition of semi-public wedding night sex, at least among the nobility, that Tyrion had to go to great effort to avoid...
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Jun 5, 2019 23:04
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pseudanonymous posted:I don't think that's true. There's this broad representation that throughout history women were treated universally like chattel, and most historians now are arguing that while that occasionally happened, and noble daughters, in particular, were often highly pressured to marry to secure alliance, the vast majority of peasants got married because they wanted to (often later, in the mid-later twenties). Certainly, in many instances, women had reduced property rights and there was no law against marital rape, but the experiences of most women throughout history do not equate to the often depicted France/Brittain noble daughters being used to secure alliances. One thing I know that was common was that the vast majority of marriages in the middle ages were what we would call common law marriages, or at least they would be until a priest came by, as most villages didn't have dedicated priests But I was not talking about that situation, though I didn't specify so I guess that is my fault. I was referring specifically to wedding nights in arranged marriages. Obviously if it wasn't an arranged marriage the sex on the wedding night was likely to be consensual. But even if it was a consensual relationship, women typically didn't have the right to turn down sexual advances from their husbands. I'll have to take a look at that podcast sometime when I am not at work. It looks interesting.
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Jun 5, 2019 23:45
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pseudanonymous posted:I don't think that's true. There's this broad representation that throughout history women were treated universally like chattel, and most historians now are arguing that while that occasionally happened, and noble daughters, in particular, were often highly pressured to marry to secure alliance, the vast majority of peasants got married because they wanted to (often later, in the mid-later twenties). Certainly, in many instances, women had reduced property rights and there was no law against marital rape, but the experiences of most women throughout history do not equate to the often depicted France/Brittain noble daughters being used to secure alliances. That could've been an interesting way to ~subvert expectations~ about life back then on made-up fantasy NotEarth, but I guess the lure of throwing a 12- or 18.01-year-old into the cliche version was just too strong.
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Jun 6, 2019 01:15
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D&D are that guy from Blazing Saddles that says “rape” twice
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Jun 6, 2019 03:41
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poisonpill posted:D&D are that guy from Blazing Saddles that says “rape” twice They're more like the kids that watched it and laughed because the jokes had racial content, but didn't grasp satire because themes are for book reports.
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Jun 6, 2019 10:13
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Captain Hygiene posted:That could've been an interesting way to ~subvert expectations~ about life back then on made-up fantasy NotEarth, but I guess the lure of throwing a 12- or 18.01-year-old into the cliche version was just too strong. It's kind of a cheap trick to force your readers to be sympathetic to your characters. If they're children then whatever happens to them isn't really their fault and they lack agency. No matter how vile what they do ultimately is, it's hard to blame them (see Ender's game). I think it's one part of why so many fantasy characters are young.
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Jun 6, 2019 10:14
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fantasy characters are young because then the target audience (children) can relate to them easier
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Jun 6, 2019 10:30
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violent sex idiot posted:fantasy characters are young because then the target audience (children) can relate to them easier target audience children?! bro, where do you think you are posting
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Jun 6, 2019 10:32
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All the characters in Game of Thrones are fat, middle aged nerds. For we... are the target audience.
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Jun 6, 2019 12:31
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Has everyone here read The Decameron? It was written in like 1350 and is very sex-positive. The middle ages were weird.
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Jun 6, 2019 14:52
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Sexual practices were a lot looser than you'd expect in the middle ages. Even for priests and stuff. It was the reformation that kind of brought the various moral crackdowns, as once the Catholics had some competition from the Protestants they realized that having the pope have multiple children and lovers was a bit hypocritical.
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Jun 6, 2019 15:17
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History isn't a linear progression of morals and values, and what is conservative in one era can be progressive in another and issues worth fighting over change wildly. People though tend to think of history as trending somewhere, as though there was a specific endgame to it, which gives you a really distorted and weird view of the past. Which also leads you to doing things like writing the ending to a show about political struggles and warfare with absolute nonsense.
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Jun 6, 2019 15:20
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man, we really need a new episode. all this talk about historically accurate portraying of middle ages peasant wives and ugh.. bring back the giants so they can step on more people
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Jun 6, 2019 16:24
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Honestly i think we and the mods owe an apology to team giant stepping on some people because they were right, that would have been really great in comparison to what we got, and they tried to warn us
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Jun 6, 2019 16:29
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sweet geek swag posted:Sexual practices were a lot looser than you'd expect in the middle ages. Even for priests and stuff. It was the reformation that kind of brought the various moral crackdowns, as once the Catholics had some competition from the Protestants they realized that having the pope have multiple children and lovers was a bit hypocritical. Technically that's not breaking the celibacy vow. Celibacy is about remaining unmarried. Having sex outside of marriage is a sin, but a priest or bishop doesn't (or didn't it's come to be interpreted differently over the years) break a vow by doing it, so in theory that can be solved by confession and penance. Anyway there were plenty of reform efforts, some successful, some less so, in the Medieval church, alot of them concerned with moral issues. The Middle Ages, particularly the High Middle Ages, were very dynamic in terms of change in all matter of areas. Also as regards Medieval marriage, even with the nobility it was not normal to marry someone who was way younger or older than you. And they too largely seem to have married in their twenties rather than their teens. And though they were typically arranged marriages (marriages outside the nobility often also were in that the initial match would often be made by friends, family or colleagues) they do seem to have considered it important that the prospective couple like each other and get along. There's a couple of examples of high-profile marriages falling apart because the couple just didn't get along and IIRC of prominent noblemen being unable to find a wife because no one wanted to marry them, likewise (Also IIRC) noble men and women who refused marriage and seemingly could/would not be made to do so by their family. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 16:37 on Jun 6, 2019 |
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Jun 6, 2019 16:33
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Also all of those chivalric romances were about making adultery the highest form of love
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Jun 6, 2019 16:46
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Mermaid Autopsy posted:Also all of those chivalric romances were about making adultery the highest form of love Further, I'm not saying Arthurian Legends are gay as to our modern sensibilities, I'm just saying there are a lot of ripped dudes kissing each other in passionate embraces and swearing off women forever.
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Jun 6, 2019 16:50
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Mermaid Autopsy posted:Also all of those chivalric romances were about making adultery the highest form of love Funny thing about Chivalric romances is that they were mostly written by court chaplains (much of the remainder were written by women) and were essentially the final chapter in a long-going effort by these to attempt to civilize and soften the nobility and make things like courtesy, protecting women, children and the Church, romantic love, and so on seem appealing to the nobility. In a way they succeeded probably because they combined those elements with fighting and being a badass warrior and horseman and making it seem as though valuing the above things actually made a knight a better fighter and elevated his acts. Of course they weren't a complete success, but they were at least popular, in contrast to the earlier attempts which had been stuff like guidebooks on table etiquette which were an abysmal failure for the most part.
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Jun 6, 2019 16:56
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Barudak posted:Further, I'm not saying Arthurian Legends are gay as to our modern sensibilities, I'm just saying there are a lot of ripped dudes kissing each other in passionate embraces and swearing off women forever. If the Templar trials are anything to go by, knights were hella gay when they weren't banging some Lord's Lady
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Jun 6, 2019 17:03
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Mermaid Autopsy posted:If the Templar trials are anything to go by, knights were hella gay when they weren't banging some Lord's Lady Not saying that the Templars weren't gay (everyone everywhere was gay) but I wouldn't put much stock in anythign in those trials representing anything close to reality. Those kinds of accusations and trials revolving around prohibited worship, sexual deviancy, and all that crap, were pretty much Phillip the Fair's modus operandi whenever he was going to take someone down because he wanted their poo poo and no one could really stop him, he did the same thing against at least one pope, an archbishop and I think several unruly vassals. What I'm saying is that there would be a whole lot less stupid Templar conspiracies around if more people were aware of how Phillip the Fair rolled and how this was just typical of him. Back then pretty much nobody seriously believed the accusations and only the Templars in France were arrested and put to trial. The order still ended up dissolved, because gently caress getting on France's bad side with this guy in charge, but that largely meant that outside France the Templars ended up just leaving, turning into smaller independent military orders or joining others.
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Jun 6, 2019 17:10
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Mermaid Autopsy posted:If the Templar trials are anything to go by, knights were hella gay when they weren't banging some Lord's Lady Theres basically no reading of history where it isnt pretty loving weird that our soldiers aren't expected to gently caress each other
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Jun 6, 2019 17:57
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Fine, more giants stepping on people and more soldiers loving each other.
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Jun 6, 2019 18:20
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Randarkman posted:Not saying that the Templars weren't gay (everyone everywhere was gay) but I wouldn't put much stock in anythign in those trials representing anything close to reality. Those kinds of accusations and trials revolving around prohibited worship, sexual deviancy, and all that crap, were pretty much Phillip the Fair's modus operandi whenever he was going to take someone down because he wanted their poo poo and no one could really stop him, he did the same thing against at least one pope, an archbishop and I think several unruly vassals.
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Jun 6, 2019 18:23
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drat sounds more like Phillip the Unfair if you ask me
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Jun 6, 2019 18:35
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Philip the Fairly Large rear end in a top hat
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Jun 6, 2019 18:37
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Philip K. Dick The K is for Komplete
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Jun 6, 2019 18:40
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Saint Drogo posted:good wikipedia read. This guy had some sweet Cersei moves. Phillip the Fair is personally one of my favorites. He was also known as the 'Iron King' by many, due to his rigidity and his apparent lack of emotions ('neither man nor beast, he is a statue'). He's kind of like Stannis if Stannis was handsome and more confident and ruthless. E: though perhaps that's more of a Tywin thing, anyway Phillip was real Tywin and Stannis aren't. His daughter, Isabella, who became queen of England is also pretty interesting if you like the Cercei characteristics, 'beautiful, intelligent, cruel, manipulative'. She's the one who fucks Mel Gibson in Braveheart, but the movie doesn't really portray her in any meaningful way other than French Love Interest. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Jun 6, 2019 |
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Jun 6, 2019 18:46
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We need to know more about the giants mating habits and societal structure.
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Jun 6, 2019 20:38
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Drunken Baker posted:All the characters in Game of Thrones are fat, middle aged nerds. For we... are the target audience. We are strong belwas minus the strong
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Jun 6, 2019 21:04
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QvZSeOEkrs
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Jun 6, 2019 21:35
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my bat mitzvah ROCKED posted:We are strong belwas minus the strong Reading four thousand pages of bad man unfinished books taught me that Strong Belwas is known for only one thing, and that's having a poop and exhibitionism fetish
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Jun 6, 2019 22:28
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Jun 6, 2019 22:39
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Mameluke posted:Reading four thousand pages of bad man unfinished books taught me that Strong Belwas is known for only one thing, and that's having a poop and exhibitionism fetish Liver and onions!
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Jun 6, 2019 22:48
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Mameluke posted:Reading four thousand pages of bad man unfinished books taught me that Strong Belwas is known for only one thing, and that's having a poop and exhibitionism fetish Strong belwas did nothing wrong
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Jun 7, 2019 00:26
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Captain Hygiene posted:I went back to watch the first couple episodes of the show, and on the one hand there competent plotting and it's weirdly entertaining to see Arya & Bran be little shits with some kind of personality, not to mention Jaime looking like a post-'90s surfer dude. ive been rewatching and rereading from the beginning and in both cases I’m skipping danaerys (and most bran) chapters. it’s really good that way.
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Jun 7, 2019 00:57
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- hi
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Ocean Book posted:ive been rewatching and rereading from the beginning and in both cases I’m skipping danaerys (and most bran) chapters. it’s really good that way. Yeah that's probably for the best. I think there is some ok Dany stuff in the early show but it's tough to get over that start. The book, though, ......eesh. I kinda like tiny whiny Bran in the show though, that guy loved climbing more than I'll ever love anything and I can respect that. I honestly don't remember a thing about him in the books after he got pushed out the window, I think I quit the series before he actually did anything interesting outside the wall.
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Jun 7, 2019 01:11
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Captain Hygiene posted:Yeah that's probably for the best. I think there is some ok Dany stuff in the early show but it's tough to get over that start. The book, though, ......eesh. He literally never does anything interesting ever. He's just there to reveal stuff to the characters basically but given oracle-like powers he doesn't actually seem to want anything. But it's not like there's some examination of how knowing the future (which is speculation) or even just seeing the true past makes him feel like a puppet or anything, he's just turned into this "blah I am the three-eyed raven".
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Jun 7, 2019 01:36
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It's so frustrating that they portray warg/greenseer Bran as this autistic oracle creep, rather than the prepubescent Cronenberg creep he is in the books
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Jun 7, 2019 01:44
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*hastily pencils in Game of Thrones above Return of the Jedi on Things David Cronenberg Should've Made list*
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Jun 7, 2019 02:17
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Captain Hygiene posted:Yeah that's probably for the best. I think there is some ok Dany stuff in the early show but it's tough to get over that start. The book, though, ......eesh. bran chapters are good before everyone leaves winterfell, so like 2
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Jun 7, 2019 03:04
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