Let's Read: "Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality"

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Qwertycoatl: Dec 31, 2008

Tiggum posted:

I don't know if he was admitting that he didn't know how to finish the story or if he'd claim that he had a solution in mind and was just testing his audience, but the threat of the "shorter and sadder ending" suggests that he was genuinely looking for someone to pull him out of the hole he'd dug himself into. Either way it's a weird threat.

The very start of chapter 1 alludes to the solution.

It was nice of Voldemort to let Harry keep his wand. Classic villain idiot ball.

# ? Apr 16, 2019 06:36

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# ? Jun 6, 2024 20:23

Pawg From Produce: Feb 11, 2019; by FactsAreUseless

He almost definitely had the ending already planned and just wanted to give the readers a game to play. It was fairly well telegraphed where he was going with the weird nonsequiter opening lines of the story, and he seeded in a couple bits of mechanics that were almost certainly more than just serendipitously germane to the solution.

It's kind of strange that he sets up this situation with an existentially dangerous "super intelligence" trying to escape containment and the Mirror creating simulated universes, the quintessential Less Wrong ouevre, and doesn't use that at all. I kind of wonder if his secret intention behind the exam was thinking somebody might interject something novel about those kinds of situations.

# ? Apr 16, 2019 06:48

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

Qwertycoatl posted:

The very start of chapter 1 alludes to the solution.

I feel very good about the fact that I don't remember that.

# ? Apr 16, 2019 07:19

Cardiovorax: Jun 5, 2011; I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

There was some discussion about this part about, I don't know, half the thread ago and I vaguely remember something intensely stupid, like someone guessing exactly what was going to happen and Yudkowsky changing the ending at the last minute so the comment would be wrong, or something like that.

# ? Apr 16, 2019 12:20

Qwertycoatl: Dec 31, 2008

My memory of back then is that when he issued the challenge the internet thought of his solution right away and then spent the rest of the time looking for less lame solutions

# ? Apr 16, 2019 13:27

Cardiovorax: Jun 5, 2011; I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

Qwertycoatl posted:

My memory of back then is that when he issued the challenge the internet thought of his solution right away and then spent the rest of the time looking for less lame solutions

Yes, that's exactly what it was. Thank you, I really wouldn't have wanted to comb through the entire thread again for that.

# ? Apr 16, 2019 13:52

DACK FAYDEN: Feb 25, 2013; Bear Witness

Someone should link it to spare the rest of us having to dig for it, though :v:

# ? Apr 18, 2019 03:17

Tunicate: May 15, 2012

didn't he also do some dumb challenge with the sorting hat

# ? Apr 18, 2019 03:29

divabot: Jun 17, 2015; A polite little mouse!

prompt: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality.

GPT-2 posted:

The original story is only five hundred pages long, but it was written by James and William Shakespeare in 1811, as well as various other authors and thinkers including Jules Ferry, T.S. Eliot, G.K. Chesterton, and Voltaire. The book is about the evolution from childhood to adult rationality and the philosophical implications of this process (that is, why and how we became rational beings).

The book was written for adults, which obviously has some restrictions. James and William Shakespeare were not very bright people, and they were trying to write a novel about something as old as the age of reason itself, so they thought that something had to be done to prevent future children from becoming intellectual "children of the age of reason" and losing their moral compass and the ability to be responsible for their actions.

There are three key passages from the original story:

Chapter One: "It is a strange dream."

This is perhaps the most important passage in the story. It shows that the young Harry never had an "instinctive" aversion to reality, and that he became rational when he was in his early teens. But it also shows Harry's need for companionship with the "young and foolish," like his sister Hermione, and his desire to be friends with the magical boy. It was all very surreal

I so wish we could have been reading this through instead.

# ? May 31, 2019 23:25

DACK FAYDEN: Feb 25, 2013; Bear Witness

I, too, desire to be friends with the magical boy.

# ? Jun 1, 2019 01:51

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

Oh poo poo, I kind of completely forgot about this thread. And we've somehow still got nine chapters to go.

Chapter 114: Shut Up and Do The Impossible

Harry basically stalls for time by telling Voldemort that he thinks he knows something that Voldemort wants to know, but he won't tell him. Then he threatens to cause a massive explosion - by transfiguring part of his wand into antimatter, although he doesn't tell Voldemort the method. He is speaking in parseltongue though so Voldemort knows he's not bluffing. Obviously this would kill Harry and all the death-eaters standing around (and possibly destroy the Philosopher's Stone?), but it would only temporarily delay Voldemort by forcing him to possess a new body.

But even though it can't be a bluff because of the "no lies in parseltongue" thing, it actually is. He's really making a carbon nanotube filament that he wraps around all the death eaters' necks and Voldemort's arms to kill/disarm them. So I guess transfiguring the end of the wand you're using to cast the transfiguration spell works.

Eliezer Yudkowsky posted:

The last two threads stretched out from the dark pattern, black theads already in the form of nanotubes. They moved lightly through the air toward the Dark Lord himself, toward the sleeve just above Voldemort's left hand that held the gun, toward the sleeve above the right hand that held the yew wand, threads placed high at first to give them time to drift slowly downward through the air. The threads looped around, went over themselves, tied slippable knots. Began to tighten, coming closer to the sleeve, as Harry Transfigured them shorter -

Harry felt the tickle of Voldmort's power beginning to touch his own in the back of his mind; at the same time the Dark Lord's eyes widened, his mouth opened.

And Harry Transfigured the black threads stretching across the black pattern's center to a quarter their previous size, shrinking the circle, yanking hard on everything attached, tightening loops.

And then he casts a stun spell to take out Voldemort.

# ? Jun 2, 2019 09:46

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

Chapter 115: Shut Up and Do The Impossible, Pt 2

Harry is trying to decide what he can do to permanently stop Voldemort since he effectively can't be killed. He considers torturing him to drive him permanently insane, and throwing his wand into the dementor pit at Azkaban (since Voldemort is permanently linked to his wand), but isn't happy with either solution.

Eliezer Yudkowsky posted:

In the end, there was only one option he would take, and since Harry already knew that, there was no point agonizing about it. Whether it was the best option, only time would tell.

Harry breathed deeply, building up the magic inside himself. The spell he was going to cast didn't need to be precise, but it was still one of the most powerful spells he'd mastered.

...

The power he was storing up was vibrating in him, like his whole body was part of his wand, either Harry's eyes were blurring or there was a luminous white quiver running over the holly. And Harry thought the shape of the spell he would cast, he didn't have much fine control but the pattern he needed was simple, it just needed to include -

Everything, forget everything, Tom Riddle, Professor Quirrell, forget your whole life, forget your entire episodic memory, forget the disappointment and the bitterness and the wrong decisions, forget Voldemort -

And at the last moment before Harry cast the spell, he had one final thought, a note of grace -

But if you ever had any truly happy memories, not hurting people or laughing at their pain, but the warm feeling of helping someone or being helped, there won't be many, maybe just when you were a child, but if you had any truly happy memories then keep only those -

Something bright in him unfolded at the decision, knowing he'd made the right choice, and Harry pushed that too into his wand -

"OBLIVIATE!"

Then he transfigures him into the form of a ring, so he's now mindless and inanimate but not technically dead, and Harry intends to, I guess, rehabilitate him some day. Then he sets up the scene, I think to make it look like Hermione killed Voldemort in self defence? It doesn't seem plausible but everyone in this book except Harry is an idiot so they'll probably believe it. Then he flies away.

It's really convenient how Harry is able to do the exact things he needs to at this point to have everyone believe exactly what he wants them to and leave all the decisions in his hands.

# ? Jun 6, 2019 04:50

Mikl: Nov 8, 2009; Vote shit sandwich or the shit sandwich gets it!

# ? Jun 6, 2019 06:10

Cardiovorax: Jun 5, 2011; I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

I have to give credit where it's due: "just mindwipe him" is a perfectly valid solution to the problem of an evil immortal ultra-wizard that would've saved everyone a lot of bother if they had thought to do it in the books. Magic Hitler isn't much of a problem anymore if he can't even remember how to tie his shoes, never mind why exactly he is supposed to hate Jews that much.

# ? Jun 6, 2019 08:55

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

I mean, if you're going to do such a radical personality reconstruction that he's not even magic Hitler anymore, than you're basically executing him anyway, just in a more horrifying way.

I'm pretty sure you can't even do that in HP, but what do I know. I haven't read nearly as much fanfic as Yud.

# ? Jun 7, 2019 14:15

Jazerus: May 24, 2011

Xander77 posted:

I mean, if you're going to do such a radical personality reconstruction that he's not even magic Hitler anymore, than you're basically executing him anyway, just in a more horrifying way.

I'm pretty sure you can't even do that in HP, but what do I know. I haven't read nearly as much fanfic as Yud.

lockhart did it to himself, but he was literally a master of memory modification even if he sucked real bad at everything else

# ? Jun 7, 2019 14:22

YaketySass: Jan 15, 2019; Blind Idiot Dog

Xander77 posted:

I mean, if you're going to do such a radical personality reconstruction that he's not even magic Hitler anymore, than you're basically executing him anyway, just in a more horrifying way.

I'm pretty sure you can't even do that in HP, but what do I know. I haven't read nearly as much fanfic as Yud.

Isn't part of Yud's beliefs that absolutely anything is better than non-existence?

# ? Jun 7, 2019 14:23

DACK FAYDEN: Feb 25, 2013; Bear Witness

Jazerus posted:

lockhart did it to himself, but he was literally a master of memory modification even if he sucked real bad at everything else

Also Lockhart did it by accident, with a wand exploding in his face, so even if it's possible presumably it requires a combination of talent and a lot of raw uncontrolled magical power that nobody's going to willingly experiment with.

# ? Jun 7, 2019 14:32

Cardiovorax: Jun 5, 2011; I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

Xander77 posted:

I mean, if you're going to do such a radical personality reconstruction that he's not even magic Hitler anymore, than you're basically executing him anyway, just in a more horrifying way.

Jazerus posted:

lockhart did it to himself, but he was literally a master of memory modification even if he sucked real bad at everything else

Exactly and yes, that's also pretty much who I was thinking of, but I coulndn't remember the name. Death-of-personality would really be fairly humane, as punishments for mass murder and trying to take over the world with a cult of Wizard Nazis go.

There are worse things than getting to start your eternal life over without the baggage of remembering being a murderous psychopath. They could've chained him to a rock and made an eagle eat his liver instead.

YaketySass posted:

Isn't part of Yud's beliefs that absolutely anything is better than non-existence?

It is, to the point of absurdity.

# ? Jun 7, 2019 14:33

Tunicate: May 15, 2012

Also memory spells in harry potter just suppress memories instead of erasing them, so torturing a guy can restore them (which voldy does to some guys)

# ? Jun 7, 2019 14:34

Cardiovorax: Jun 5, 2011; I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

I think Lockhart establishes that they can also cause enough brain damage for memories to be destroyed permanently when misused, it's just not the intended design. They never manage to fix him, so there's at least no easy way out of that.

# ? Jun 7, 2019 14:36

YaketySass: Jan 15, 2019; Blind Idiot Dog

Lockhart became a helpless amnesiac they had to lock up in the wizard hospital and he was still there a couple of books later, presumably not loving someone up that badly takes skill and deliberation.

# ? Jun 7, 2019 14:38

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

Didn't Neville's parents also get badly hosed up by Obliviate (among other things)?

# ? Jun 7, 2019 14:43

Doctor Spaceman: Jul 6, 2010; "Everyone's entitled to their point of view, but that's seriously a weird one."

Tunicate posted:

Also memory spells in harry potter just suppress memories instead of erasing them, so torturing a guy can restore them (which voldy does to some guys)

The memory charm used on that woman was so strong that it screwed up her ability to recall other things and I think changed her personality a bit?

Doctor Spaceman fucked around with this message at 16:11 on Jun 7, 2019

# ? Jun 7, 2019 14:45

Cardiovorax: Jun 5, 2011; I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

No, it was the torture spell alone in their case.

quote:

The memory charm used on that woman was so strong that it screwed up her ability to recall other things and I think changing her personality a bit?

Bertha whatshername, right? Yeah, that happened.

# ? Jun 7, 2019 14:45

Fajita Queen: Jun 21, 2012

I suppose crucio-ing him until he's a vegetable would technically be a valid option if you can't find all the horcruxes, but I doubt any of the protagonists would ever consider it.

# ? Jun 7, 2019 15:45

Jazerus: May 24, 2011

yud subscribes fully to the worst fan theories about how magic works

"literally anything works if you just visualize it enough and also are harry potter" is one of the most common fanfiction crutches

# ? Jun 7, 2019 16:11

Doctor Spaceman: Jul 6, 2010; "Everyone's entitled to their point of view, but that's seriously a weird one."

Jazerus posted:

yud subscribes fully to the worst fan theories about how magic works

"literally anything works if you just visualize it enough and also are harry potter" is one of the most common fanfiction crutches

The weird thing is that his big "partial transfiguration" gimmick isn't anything special in canon, or at least seems very similar to things that aren't special.

# ? Jun 7, 2019 16:13

Cardiovorax: Jun 5, 2011; I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

It's not that strange - the guy's entire familiarity with Harry Potter self-admittedly comes from fanfiction. He didn't even read the final four books until he was like three quarters through with writing this tripe.

I'm also pretty sure it isn't special, it's just, well, how often do you need to turn half of a brick into a rat?

# ? Jun 7, 2019 16:18

Zonekeeper: Oct 27, 2007

Cardiovorax posted:

I'm also pretty sure it isn't special, it's just, well, how often do you need to turn half of a brick into a rat?

Hell, it happened in the fourth goddamned book! Krum partially transfigured himself into a shark during the Triwizard lake task.

# ? Jun 7, 2019 16:57

YaketySass: Jan 15, 2019; Blind Idiot Dog

Most of the actual plot devices in that story like the Interdict of Merlin, the inability to lie in Parseltongue or transfiguration being so absurdly dangerous are Yudkowsky's invention. Which makes you question why he didn't just write the story in an original setting in the first place, before you remember he's a shameless grifter who was deliberately courting the audience of that particular fandom.

# ? Jun 7, 2019 17:18

Cardiovorax: Jun 5, 2011; I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

In all fairness, he does make a difference between "part of an object" and "an object partways," so that particular example isn't his fault, even if he had known about it. It's different concepts.

# ? Jun 7, 2019 17:20

Qwertycoatl: Dec 31, 2008

One thing that annoys me about HPMoR is that Harriezer's superpowers are basically granted for having read the right popsci/scifi rather than any particular knowledge.

He can do partial transfiguration because he read about quantum physics, and he can get it to work even though he couldn't actually solve any quantum physics equations, he just has to know that matter is quantum, man.

And he can defeat the dementors not because he can defeat death, or because he has any idea of how he might defeat death, but because he'd like to and he read some scifi where it happened.

# ? Jun 7, 2019 20:13

Cardiovorax: Jun 5, 2011; I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

It's not even that. He can do it because he just has a magical, author-granted knowledge of a particular pseudo-scientific crank theory invented by Eliezer Yudkowsky himself. Everytime he mentions "timeless physics?" Those do not actually exist.

Like, at all. The arrow of time is intrinsic to modern conceptions of physics. There are individual physical laws that are time-symmetric, but otherwise, this makes about as much sense as saying "directionless gravity." He invented those pretty much for the sole purpose of justifying super-duper-mega-ultra-AIs who can predict each other so awesome super-duper-well that they effectively communicate backwards in time, which he then calls "timeless decision theory," presumably because it sounds cooler.

Pointing out, again, that Yudkowsky did not even finish high-school, never mind have any kind of degree in physics or any kind of STEM field... or, in fact, even any kind of higher education at all.

Cardiovorax fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Jun 7, 2019

# ? Jun 7, 2019 20:34

Pvt.Scott: Feb 16, 2007; What God wants, God gets, God help us all

Wouldn�t the entire universe exist in some funky clusterfuck of superpositions if time did not exist?

# ? Jun 8, 2019 00:54

Jazerus: May 24, 2011

Pvt.Scott posted:

Wouldn�t the entire universe exist in some funky clusterfuck of superpositions if time did not exist?

yes, either that or it requires a single rigid timeline, the "all time travel already happened" type of model. but that's just the many worlds vs single world argument, nothing new.

"timeless physics" isn't actually total gibberish but it's also not groundbreaking in any way. it's an extraordinarily complicated way to explain a method to visualize space-time as opposed to space alone - that is, that every combination of spatial location and position in time is a unique position in space-time such that you're not really in the same "place" from moment to moment, if you were to view 4d space-time from the outside. this idea predates yud's birth significantly

# ? Jun 8, 2019 03:29

Cardiovorax: Jun 5, 2011; I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

It also makes cats look a bit like white, fuzzy carrots.

"An extraordinarily complicated and impractical way to do something very simple" seems to describe most of his ideas, really. Also, I think at large enough scale that way of modelling breaks down entirely because of relativistic frames of reference, but that's a bit outside my field.

# ? Jun 8, 2019 07:22

DACK FAYDEN: Feb 25, 2013; Bear Witness

Cardiovorax posted:

"An extraordinarily complicated and impractical way to do something very simple" seems to describe most of his ideas, really.

and his sex life heyoooo

# ? Jun 9, 2019 12:02

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

Chapter 116: Aftermath, Something to Protect, Pt 0

Harry, having travelled back in time, returns to the Quidditch game.

Eliezer Yudkowsky posted:

Harry Potter stood up, hands still on his forehead, and dropped his hands to reveal that his famous lightning-bolt scar was now blazing red and inflamed. It was bleeding, with the blood dripping down Potter's nose.

...

Professor McGonagall turned away from where she was arguing with the Hufflepuff Quidditch team. The Head of Gryffindor's eyes widened in shock, and then she was moving people out of her way, almost running. "Harry!" she said. "Your scar! "

Silence was spreading, in a widening circle.

"I think," Harry said, his voice still wavering but louder, "I think he's back. I think I'm seeing - through Voldemort's mind -"

Anna took a step back at You-Know-Who's name and nearly fell over a bleacher. An older boy standing next to her gave a cry of dismay, and then the Boy-Who-Lived shrieked even louder.

"HE'S KILLING THEM!" screamed Harry Potter.

Half the Quidditch stadium turned to look at him.

"The ritual!" cried Harry Potter. "Blood of his servants! The blood, the life! He summoned them, he took their heads, their blood, the life, to renew his own - THE DARK LORD RISES, VOLDEMORT IS RETURNED!"

...

"Wait -" Harry Potter gasped, his voice lower, but still loud enough that she and the people near her could hear clearly. "He can be stopped - I see his mind, his mistake - he can be stopped now - THE WAY IS STILL OPEN! SHE'S FOLLOWING HIM! SHE WHO VOLDEMORT SLEW! " Harry's voice rose further, as Anna's own mouth fell open in sudden confusion. "RETURN! RETURN, RETURN, REVIVE AND STOP HIM! STOP HIM, HERMIONE! "

And then Harry Potter fell silent. He looked around at the people staring at him.

She'd just about decided that this had to all be a prank in unbelievably poor taste, when a distant but sharp CRACK filled the air.

Harry Potter swayed, and fell to his knees, even as her heart jumped into her throat. An explosion of excited babble rose around them.

She could still hear the words from Harry Potter's mouth, as Professor McGonagall knelt next to him. "It worked," Harry Potter gasped aloud, "she got him, he's gone."

"What? " cried Professor McGonagall, then glanced around. "Quiet! Quiet, all of you! Harry, what happened?"

Harry Potter was speaking rapidly but loudly. "Voldemort - tried to revive - he summoned Death Eaters and he killed them, stole their blood and life - Hermione's body was there, I don't know why, maybe Voldemort was planning to use it for something - Voldemort came back, he resurrected himself, but Hermione followed him back and she destroyed him, he's gone, it's over. It happened in a graveyard near Hogwarts, it's," Harry Potter rose to his feet, still swaying, "I think it's in that direction." Harry Potter pointed in the rough direction the CRACK had come from, "I'm not sure how far. The sound from there took twenty seconds to get here, so maybe two minutes on a broomstick -"

Sure, that all seems entirely plausible.

Harry also tells them that Dumbeldore is dead (or whatever it was that happened to him) so McGonagall is about to go to the graveyard but Flitwick stops her because of some reason he won't say but she clearly understands. So he goes instead. And then they finish the Quidditch game. :psyduck:

# ? Jun 17, 2019 13:24

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# ? Jun 6, 2024 20:23

Liquid Communism: Mar 9, 2004; коммунизм хранится в яичках

Cardiovorax posted:

There are worse things than getting to start your eternal life over without the baggage of remembering being a murderous psychopath. They could've chained him to a rock and made an eagle eat his liver instead.

Or given Harriezzer's obsessed with PopSci, just huck him off-planet and forget he ever existed. It's a big universe, after all.

Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 11:43 on Jun 19, 2019

# ? Jun 19, 2019 11:40

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > Let's Read: "Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality"

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