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Darth Walrus posted:I think it's more of a reference to how YMB very obviously gets off on rubbing people's noses in atrocities under the guise of virtue. Like when he got all judgy about people not wanting to share the shooter's footage from Christchurch. It's possible to bring up Abrams's litany of crimes without deriving quite such obvious sadistic pleasure from it, especially when talking to someone who actually has first-hand experience with murderous militias. Seems more like he gets off on not letting people present the euphemistic version of what they're cheerleading wrt US involvement or, now, direct military 'intervention'. That means toddler skulls smashed by hammers or similar horrors as part of the price. Too few people arguing for US intervention don't own up to that and cling to some sort of idealistic foreign intervention that never actually happens.
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Jun 6, 2019 19:09
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brugroffil posted:That means toddler skulls smashed by hammers We'd use a drone.
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Jun 6, 2019 19:43
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Do you seriously not loving understand that these "euphemistic versions" do nothing to us because the reality is already pretty loving drat close to it? The tragedy is on going and all it would take for you lazy fuckers is to open your eyes to it, and to stop making up bullshit excuses for an ineffectual piece of poo poo such as Maduro. We will never get anywhere because none of you are willing to accept that Maduro's actions are as vile as these scenarios that you've conjured. Stop this loving loop already and at least own up to that.
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Jun 6, 2019 19:51
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I do think that for however bad Maduro or his party's policies have made Venezuela, US military involvement will make things worse. That is nearly universally true for instances of US military involvement. Given the current crew running things, I see no reason to believe it'd be any better this time.
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Jun 6, 2019 20:22
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the part of the loop that's conveniently missing from your account is the one where you say "it's already as bad as that" and (some) people don't believe you
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Jun 6, 2019 20:36
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fnox posted:Well, what would you say then? Would it be justified? To put Guaido in jail? Yes of course it'd be justified. But they're not simply letting him walk around freely because of what headlines would say. They're taking the threat that Guaido's arrest would be a red-line for intervention seriously.
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Jun 6, 2019 20:49
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fnox posted:Do you seriously not loving understand that these "euphemistic versions" do nothing to us because the reality is already pretty loving drat close to it? The tragedy is on going and all it would take for you lazy fuckers is to open your eyes to it, and to stop making up bullshit excuses for an ineffectual piece of poo poo such as Maduro. arguing for a superpower to invade your country, in order to depose its ruler and replace it with one more favorable to them, and all of the bloody purges of the ideologically unreliable that process necessitates, with "In order to make an omelette, you have to break a few eggs." to own the tankies. magnificent.
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Jun 6, 2019 21:00
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fnox posted:We will never get anywhere because none of you are willing to accept that Maduro's actions are as vile as these scenarios that you've conjured. We don't believe you. Hell, I'm pretty sure almost all of the other Venegoons don't believe this! Like, I'm pretty sure you're literally the only one in this topic that believes "even elliot abrams can't make this situation any worse." I understand the logic of your position, but even you have to admit your opinion on this is on the very extreme end.
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Jun 6, 2019 21:48
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If actual no-poo poo baby killing or other Abrams-esque atrocities were happening on the reg in a country where smartphones and internet access exists and the atrocities are supposedly committed by undisciplined paramilitaries and the population of the country was mostly united against the government you would think that there would be solid documentary evidence of said atrocities somewhere. And if, in addition to this, said country was on the US shitlist and hence was being portrayed as negatively as possible by the mostly servile US media, you would also think that said documentary evidence would be plastered all across every front page there is. But since there is a definite lack of this happening, objective reality once again contradicts the idea.
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Jun 7, 2019 00:12
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there are a bunch of children dying of lack of access to medicines, but fortunately team intervention has assured us that they will solve this problem through sanctions and kicking out Cuban doctors providing free health care
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Jun 7, 2019 00:22
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They risked everything for Guaidó. Now Venezuela's military defectors are lostquote:Bogotá (CNN)Fernando Díaz left his job, his family and his home to join a movement to bring down the government of Nicolás Maduro. Now, the former Venezuelan National Guard sergeant sounds hopeless -- and angry. He's fed up with waiting for the revolution to come, and there's fatigue in his short, quick sentences. Also lollin at this part: quote:
Have you tried asking the state department or the CIA instead???
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Jun 7, 2019 00:23
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I mean Saddam Hussein's well-documented atrocities are worse than even the most fantastical crimes Maduro's critics have accused him of, and a US invasion to install a puppet government still managed to make conditions in Saddam's country worse by a staggeringly incomprehensible amount, so this "well it can't possibly get any worse than this" attitude is baffling. It certainly can. Every US intervention for at least 50 years has made things worse for the people. E: like if you went back to 2003 and told people what the outcome of the invasion would be they would have assumed you were either an insane paranoiac or in Saddam's employment VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Jun 7, 2019 |
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Jun 7, 2019 00:24
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Comparing Venezuela to Iraq is useful to see what happens when a government goes from being able to feed it's people and provide medical care (Iraq pre-Kuwait, Venezuela) to having that capability destroyed (Iraq under sanctions, Venezuela today). The salient point would be Iraq had punitive UNSC sanctions after a crushing military defeat, and Venezuela has 'merely' had the PSUV. As has been shown, the late-Chavez and Maduro regimes quite handily wrecked the economy with minimal assistance from the USA. I suspect if you offered a Venezuelan today the economic conditions of pre-Kuwait Iraq (under Saddam) they'd jump at it. But that's just a guess.
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Jun 7, 2019 05:50
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Rust Martialis posted:Comparing Venezuela to Iraq is useful to see what happens when a government goes from being able to feed it's people and provide medical care (Iraq pre-Kuwait, Venezuela) to having that capability destroyed (Iraq under sanctions, Venezuela today). you know there was a little thing called the iran v. iraq war that you might want to take into consideration for that premise.
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Jun 7, 2019 05:59
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Saudi Arabia's government literally hacked up a journalist and executed children within the last year but for some weird reason our American benevolence doesn't see fit to care about those attrocities. Stuff like that is why the idea that we care about human rights in Venezuela is absolutely unbelievable and it's hard to think we have any intention on making life better for the people there.
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Jun 7, 2019 11:23
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Radish posted:Saudi Arabia's government literally hacked up a journalist and executed children within the last year but for some weird reason our American benevolence doesn't see fit to care about those attrocities. Stuff like that is why the idea that we care about human rights in Venezuela is absolutely unbelievable and it's hard to think we have any intention on making life better for the people there. It’s possible for individuals, like those posting in this thread, to think both MBS’s Saudi Arabia and Maduro’s Venezuela are awful governments. No one in this thread thinks the US has a generally-beneficial influence, and especially not the current administration. It is possible to criticize Maduro’s government without thinking sick violent fantasies about how much worse anyone but Maduro could be. Also SA was massively criticized in the media and politically for murdering Kashoggi, even in the general American press. I don’t at all get the point of your whataboutism.
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Jun 7, 2019 11:45
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The reason to bring up our hypocracy in regards to humanitarianism is because that tells you we absolutely aren't interested in helping out the situation. You can't have a discussion about if American intervention is going to be a positive for a country without looking at our underlying interest in involving ourselves. Additionally you need to actually look at the real ramifications of that involvement and if that seems like sick violent fantasies maybe people need to stew on that since that stuff actually happened under the watch of the guy currently in charge.
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Jun 7, 2019 12:55
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Saladman posted:
Saladman posted:
I'm sure the media and political class will wring their hands as they fund and arm atrocities in Venezuela too.
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Jun 7, 2019 13:51
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Also pretty hosed that in terms of awful poo poo Saudi Arabia has done and is doing, the murder of a single journalist is supposed to be a heinous crime.
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Jun 7, 2019 14:44
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"Wataboutism" is such a meaningless attack line when it's absolutely relevant to how we conduct our foreign policy and how consistent it is regarding what we have to gain in each case and how inconsistent it is when you are judging it based on human rights. Also the press was all about rehabilitating Saudi Arabia's image until one of their own was butchered then for a few weeks they were certainly unhappy until they lost interest. Who cares if the oped page of the WAPO is mad above them momentarily since they certainly aren't hyping up regime change like they are in Venezuela.
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Jun 7, 2019 14:44
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Also pretty hosed that in terms of awful poo poo Saudi Arabia has done and is doing, the murder of a single journalist is supposed to be a heinous crime. I wasn't going to get into that, but yeah that too, the media and the political class were just fine with Saudi Arabia's horrific record of atrocities until they did it so someone in their class that they can empathize with, and even then the administration is still arming MBS. The idea that they would care if US-backed militias murdered a bunch of poor South Americans is laughable, maybe they would whimper if Guaido killed a journalist and there would be a modicum of handwringing about how bad they feel that they have to keep supporting the only realistic choice for Venezuela.
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Jun 7, 2019 15:46
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fnox posted:Do you seriously not loving understand that these "euphemistic versions" do nothing to us because the reality is already pretty loving drat close to it? It's not "close to it." The fact that you think that the situation in Venezuela today is "pretty loving drat close to" the level of suffering that people experienced under the U.S.-backed right-wing dictatorships of the past shows either an incredible level of ignorance or an appalling degree of callousness on your part.
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Jun 8, 2019 09:32
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Majorian posted:It's not "close to it." The fact that you think that the situation in Venezuela today is "pretty loving drat close to" the level of suffering that people experienced under the U.S.-backed right-wing dictatorships of the past shows either an incredible level of ignorance or an appalling degree of callousness on your part. What shows an appalling degree of callousness is the complete disregard and outright denial of the death, suffering and despair that is already loving ongoing. I don't give a poo poo about your fantasies because you don't give a poo poo about what's happening right now. Same jackasses that bring out the constant "babies killed with hammers" stories refuse to acknowledge there is a humanitarian crisis, occurring right now, in Venezuelan soil, which started a while ago. If you deny reality why should I remotely even care about what you think is going to happen. This will now lead to someone bringing up some random US action in 2008 to justify almost 8 years of dictatorship, like if Maduro has had absolutely no agency in destroying this country. You motherfuckers don't have a stake in this, when you say "you're better off with Maduro", you don't have to experience any of the pain caused by Maduro to people living right now, you can say that because you live comfortably in the loving United States of America. Best part of it, because you are born with a better citizenship than us, you get to leave if you don't like it, you just gotta be willing to risk everything like we did. The implication that follows always is that I support US action. NO, I JUST WANT MADURO OUT. I am anti-Maduro. Whatever it takes, he needs to go. If it results in another dictatorship, we'll fight against that too. If it results in us losing sovereignty, we'll fight that too. It doesn't end after Maduro is gone. The day ANY of you offers any alternatives that aren't to keep Maduro is they day I'll listen to you.
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Jun 8, 2019 09:54
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*is suffering, sees a door labeled "way out" and reaches for it* A man with a distinguished neckbeard aproaches you and says "Don't go in that door, it leads to even worse suffering. Here's a list of everyone who went through and all the awful things that have happened to them. This is a bad idea" "gently caress YOU you motherfucker, obviously you don't care about the suffering I'm going through RIGHT NOW, I don't care that you THINK poo poo is worse behind that door, maybe it will be better, you don't know, you don't care about me, gently caress you and your bullshit list"
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Jun 8, 2019 10:20
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Zidrooner posted:*is suffering, sees a door labeled "way out" and reaches for it* This would be more accurate if the people leading the move to open that door weren't already wealthy and seeking the further enrichment they see on the other side, because by and large the suffering that would come will not touch them in particular. Kokoro Wish fucked around with this message at 12:20 on Jun 8, 2019 |
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Jun 8, 2019 12:17
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*does not want his children to suffer, sees a door labeled "way out" and reaches for it* A man with a distinguished neckbeard aproaches you and says "You have to vaccinate your children, not doing it may lead to worse suffering for them and others. Here's a list of many people who went through that door and what happened to them and others. This is a bad idea." "gently caress YOU you motherfucker, obviously you don't care about the suffering my child will go through RIGHT NOW, I don't care that you THINK poo poo is worse behind that door, maybe it will be better, you don't know, you don't care about me, gently caress you and your bullshit list"
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Jun 8, 2019 12:29
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*child has cancer, father does not want his children to die, sees a door labeled "radiation and chemotherapy" and reaches for it* A man with a distinguished Lenin goatee aproaches you and says "chemo is poison to your children, it leads to worse suffering for them and others. Here's a list of many people who say they went through that door and what happened to their children and others. This is a bad idea." "gently caress YOU you motherfucker, obviously you don't care about the suffering my child will go through RIGHT NOW, I don't care that you THINK poo poo is worse behind that door, maybe it will be better, if I do nothing my child will die, you don't care about my kid, gently caress you and your bullshit list"
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Jun 8, 2019 13:19
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thank you for proving my point, these "stories" are dumb as hell and prove nothing actually on closer reading the first one is dumber than I thought because it explicitly says that everyone who passed through the door ended up worse
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Jun 8, 2019 13:44
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*see door labeled SMASHED BABY SKULLS AND OPEN AIR SLAVE MARKETS* "hmm yes surely this is the Way Out!"
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Jun 8, 2019 14:04
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Rust Martialis posted:*child has cancer, father does not want his children to die, sees a door labeled "radiation and chemotherapy" and reaches for it* "the death squads will be therapeutic" is a new one, I gotta say
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Jun 8, 2019 14:28
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ha ha ha just gonna roll the bones here how bad can it get *shakes hand excitedly, throws it open over a table, half a million skeletons cascade out onto the table in a torrent of blood*
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Jun 8, 2019 14:29
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like ill rock the boat and agree maduro is an asswipe but jesus christ uncle sam is not your friend e: a hurricane killed one in a thousand people in a major us territory two years ago and the government response was to tell them to shut the gently caress up Tiler Kiwi fucked around with this message at 14:38 on Jun 8, 2019 |
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Jun 8, 2019 14:32
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Also refused aid from Venezuela for Puerto Rico.
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Jun 8, 2019 14:45
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Tiler Kiwi posted:like ill rock the boat and agree maduro is an asswipe but jesus christ uncle sam is not your friend I think this pretty much sums up the basic position of the regular posters here, so you're not being controversial in the least. You may be being misled by the cluster of posters who loudly equate any opposition to Maduro with supporting baby murder.
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Jun 8, 2019 15:25
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dirty lousy tramp posted:thank you for proving my point, these "stories" are dumb as hell and prove nothing Yeah, agreed, yours was pretty dumb, neglecting active suffering going on right now.
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Jun 8, 2019 15:31
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And the Morale of the story is that I have to accept I will brutally die here in Venezuela no matter what happens, so might as well pray that fatality is not tied to the current Government strongly insisting in keeping their Status Quo of Total Negligence and Willingness to rule over a Nation of Corpses. After deciding to stop ignoring the thread today, all I can say is I have to admire fnox for still trying to throw pearls to the swines for the sake of whatever is left of our wellbeing.
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Jun 8, 2019 15:45
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What exactly is the proposed mechanism for regime change at this point? The relatively bloodless coup card has already been played, and it was such an unmitigated failure that I can't imagine any of Maduro's generals are currently rushing to be part of the next one.
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Jun 8, 2019 15:46
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Rust Martialis posted:Yeah, agreed, yours was pretty dumb, neglecting active suffering going on right now. Your contention is that military occupation will..relieve suffering and make things better?
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Jun 8, 2019 15:51
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Rust Martialis posted:Yeah, agreed, yours was pretty dumb, neglecting active suffering going on right now. yours is dumber cause you're actively inviting more suffering but cloaking it in "well we can't be one hundred percent sure that the same thing will happen that I admit happens every single time"
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Jun 8, 2019 15:56
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It must be absolutely WILD for the Venezuelan goons to read posts by well fed, well educated and generally well off Americans, explaining to them that the hardships they experienced, the starvation and oppression they suffered or are still suffering at the hands of Maduro and his cronies isn't that bad and that they should accept the current situation because any change might bring the big bad wolf to their door.
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