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he's the deputy of the guy who is trying to do a coup d'etat and calling for a foreign invasion, not just an "opposition politician"
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Jun 9, 2019 18:18
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:From where I am sitting, his claims appear far more patient, genuine and understanding than the seemingly gleeful screeds about shattered children's skulls and hypothetical future massacres of his countrymen coming out of some other posters ITT. Hypothetical? You do know John Bolton and Eliot Abrams are involved?
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Jun 9, 2019 18:20
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Fiend posted:Hypothetical? You do know John Bolton and Eliot Abrams are involved? Yes, I do know that, thank you for this entirely new and meaningful contribution to the thread.
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Jun 9, 2019 18:22
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:Yes, I do know that, thank you for this entirely new and meaningful contribution to the thread. Well then the notion of future slaughter isn’t some untested hypothesis holding the same value as unchecked propaganda. You are not convincing and nobody should dismiss the fact that Eliot Abrams is involved.
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Jun 9, 2019 18:29
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whoa whoa whoa posting rude in DnD? Heavens to Betsy, what is this world coming to
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Jun 9, 2019 18:31
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Majorian posted:Well now, hold on a second. If we’re going to talk about deflection, when was the last time that you saw the pro-Guaido crowd here actually engage with the fact that Elliott Abrams has stage managed this poo poo? Me, that same page.  although I'm not sure even fnox is exactly "pro-guaido" anymore, just despairing and stridently anti-Maduro dirty lousy tramp posted:he's the deputy of the guy who is trying to do a coup d'etat and calling for a foreign invasion, not just an "opposition politician" i'm not sure being Guaido's deputy is arrest-worthy, but he was at the air force base for the fizzled revolt so ehh whatever, it's traditional to arrest failed revolutionaries hopefully he's not being tortured during his stay in SEBIN's hellpit
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Jun 9, 2019 19:58
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Just because Eliot Abrams was responsible for the crucifying children a thousand times doesn't mean he'll do it a thousand and one times, stop learning from the past it has nothing to do with the present
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Jun 9, 2019 20:10
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I've never been pro-Guaido. He's always been an intermediate step at best. Just like Leopoldo Lopez, Henrique Capriles or others were. We just need anyone to pivot away from disastrous Chavista policy, and that eventually opens the path for prosecution of the criminal elements of the Maduro administration.
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Jun 9, 2019 20:11
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frankly I don't see what all the fuss is about, we've solidly established that arresting your political opponents on trumped up and/or selectively applied charges to push them out of running against you is acceptable and even laudable
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Jun 9, 2019 23:51
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It's the hot new game sweeping the nation, with a guaranteed winner on every page of the thread
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Jun 10, 2019 02:44
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M. Discordia posted:It's the hot new game sweeping the nation, with a guaranteed winner on every page of the thread tbf i can't recall seeing anyone in either venezuela thread talking about zionists
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Jun 10, 2019 02:49
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ftfy in 5x5 the text is too small to read, you'll just have to play BING instead.
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Jun 10, 2019 04:31
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GoluboiOgon posted:ftfy ms paint brings us all salvation from too small bingo cards 
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Jun 10, 2019 06:14
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fnox posted:Maduro killed hundreds during the OLPs. There's documented massacres committed by Maduro's security forces. There's widespread reports of torture, surveillance, disappearances of political dissidents, arbitrary arrests, harassment, blackmail. People get loving detained over tweets. And yet, as bad as that is, the regimes that people like Abrams and Bolton put in power are invariably worse than what you are describing. Like, seriously, I'm not using hyperbole here. There is no international situation in which Abrams and Bolton have participated that they haven't made orders of magnitude worse. e: Not too many people here are denying that the situation in Venezuela is bad. But you keep saying that anything would be better than Maduro, when the putative leader of the opposition is being worked like a puppet by people who have routinely taken bad situations in Latin America over the past several decades, and made them significantly worse. Yet when people point that out, you accuse them of engaging in fantasy. Majorian fucked around with this message at 09:02 on Jun 10, 2019 |
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Jun 10, 2019 08:45
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Holy gently caress, stop. It’s bad right now, what are you gonna do about it?
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Jun 10, 2019 08:59
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fnox posted:Holy gently caress, stop. I've donated to relief organizations; there's not much more that I can do right now.  You seem to think that people here saying "Maduro's bad, but things could definitely be worse under a right-wing regime" is somehow going to materially benefit the Maduro government, or weaken organic grassroots efforts to unseat him on the ground. You seem to want those of us who oppose intervention to say, "Actually you're right, anything would be better than Maduro." But why would we say that when it's pretty demonstrably not true?
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Jun 10, 2019 09:08
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fnox posted:Holy gently caress, stop. imo the best thing to do is pressure the US to stop its deleterious sanctions, and pressure the US to accept venezuelan refugees asking the US to do something about maduro is asking for far greater atrocities than maduro's capable of to be inflicted on venezuela. especially since a guy way more idiotic and incompetent than maduro is currently in charge of the US Condiv fucked around with this message at 09:44 on Jun 10, 2019 |
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Jun 10, 2019 09:42
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M. Discordia posted:Literally every socialist on this forum has argued for the past 15 years that the Venezuelan people should accept the current state of affairs, or that their suffering “isn’t that bad.” Actually the past fifteen years still included the years where libertarian former China Whisperers were doing their "a market economy in a supposed communist state? How splendid, hopefully we can do away with democracy entirely! Dictatorship just werks." routine for Venezuela and also screaming about how we need to start pressing Cuba harder, and they had people who agreed with them, so lol. I think the last gasps of that op-ed genre was Iraq kicking the troops out? Big Hubris fucked around with this message at 14:17 on Jun 10, 2019 |
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Jun 10, 2019 14:01
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EdithUpwards posted:Actually the past fifteen years still included the years where libertarian former China Whisperers were doing their "a market economy in a supposed communist state? How splendid, hopefully we can do away with democracy entirely! Dictatorship just werks." routine for Venezuela and also screaming about how we need to start pressing Cuba harder, and they had people who agreed with them, so lol. I can't make heads or tails of this word salad. What self-described "libertarians" care about Venezuela? Aren't they obsessed with gold coins and blimps or something? Are you saying American right-wingers liked Chavez because he was ... similar to China in some way? And this has something to do with troops in Iraq? Huh?
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Jun 10, 2019 16:36
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M. Discordia posted:I can't make heads or tails of this word salad. What self-described "libertarians" care about Venezuela? Aren't they obsessed with gold coins and blimps or something? Are you saying American right-wingers liked Chavez because he was ... similar to China in some way? And this has something to do with troops in Iraq? Huh? there is a long version of this story and a short version of this story. the short version is "please look up the Chicago School and Chile." the medium version is that Abrams and company are not the -only- conservative school of thought of how to handle the problem of their racial inferiors attempting self-governance. there's a great apocryphal story about it: student goes to visit great economist Milton Friedman, tells him "professor! your students are doing horrific things in Chile! they are backing a dictator who publicly executes those suspected of disloyalty to the regime, and they are turning a blind eye to hurling minorities out of helicopters in the name of promoting public decency!" great economist Milton Friedman responds "Well that's just politics. the important thing is the markets are free!" the people in question were the ones who got to do the heavy lifting on destroying Iraq. the theory went that a dictatorial central government tasked with keeping a totally unregulated market free of any pernicious left-wing influences should result in the ideal system of governance, and that the Pinochet regime had only failed because the lefty rot ran too deep in the Chilean populace. By 2004, even the Bush administration could tell this was not working, and so handed cleanup of the inexplicable rebellious areas to a familiar name, who promptly whipped out his trademark "Kill Every Military Aged Male To Send The Populace A Lesson" move in Fallujah. the debate can be best characterized, imo, as an argument between Friedman's idealistic "the brutality is a stepping stone towards a free-market state that will ally with us of its own free will" and Abrams' more pragmatic "unremitting brutality towards those who seek self-determination is the only way to preserve a third-world client state." the friedmanites lost that debate and real fuckin' hard, as evidenced by the official position of US Secretary of State Pompeo on Venezuela currently being "we will continue to starve you until you love us."
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Jun 10, 2019 17:19
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Darth Walrus posted:Define 'here', because uninterrupted is a regular poster and there was that one guy who tried to use Google reviews to prove there wasn't any starvation in Venezuela. You must be reading too much into it as there was no such claim. It was a continuation of the below, as various claims didn't seem to match with the outcome. 536 posted:I still can't get past the claims from last page that people on the minimum wage can only afford 4 or 5 bags of rice and beans a month. That can't be possible. You'd have people rioting or starving all the time. Cerebral Bore posted:As I've been reading though it I've noticed that this thread would have you believe a lot of things that clearly clash with observable reality. For example, the "thread consensus" seems to be that things in Venezuela are as bad as they can possibly be and people have nothing left to lose. In addition the government has basically no support whatsoever except from the people who they buy off, and the regular people are solidly united behind the opposition. Also the country is in a complete shambles and you can get a gun from basically anywhere.
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Jun 11, 2019 06:07
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Corky Romanovsky posted:You must be reading too much into it as there was no such claim. It was a continuation of the below, as various claims didn't seem to match with the outcome. They're both baffling statements. People WERE rioting and protesting all the time. I'm not even talking about specifically the big marches that have occurred every other year Maduro has spent in power, or the large scale looting that has occasionally occurred, I'm talking about having protests almost every single day everywhere in the country, and mostly around poorer neighborhoods. These weren't televised, because the government owns basically every channel in national broadcasting. They also didn't last long as the GNB and colectivos quickly dispersed them. This occurred for so long that people just got sick of trying in vain. The fact that it didn't register in American media doesn't mean it didn't happen, you can find evidence of it in Venezuelan twitter. The reason why nobody is explicitly going out in the streets to back either Maduro or Guaido is that they're sick of it. Intensely sick of it all. Polls show this. For as long as I can remember the situation in Venezuela has been of polar opposites, seemingly unable to ever compromise. The oppositions inability to capitalize on malcontent, the internal squabbles, and their chronic squandering and time wasting have made them unpopular, from their high point in 2016. Maduro has just never been popular, his popularity has faced a steady decline since he first got elected, with US actions in recent years only serving to further radicalize his base. You people are just showing up. There's been already multiple attempts to get rid of Maduro. Previous ones, that didn't really have as strong of an international backing, were far closer to success than this one. At this stage, everyone's too exhausted and too busy figuring out how to survive to fight an emboldened, reinforced Maduro. The reason why you don't see people fighting anymore is because they've taken too much poo poo already, not because there's nothing happening there. fnox fucked around with this message at 22:11 on Jun 11, 2019 |
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Jun 11, 2019 22:08
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fnox posted:They're both baffling statements. People WERE rioting and protesting all the time. I'm not even talking about specifically the big marches that have occurred every other year Maduro has spent in power, or the large scale looting that has occasionally occurred, I'm talking about having protests almost every single day everywhere in the country, and mostly around poorer neighborhoods. These weren't televised, because the government owns basically every channel in national broadcasting. They also didn't last long as the GNB and colectivos quickly dispersed them. This occurred for so long that people just got sick of trying in vain. The fact that it didn't register in American media doesn't mean it didn't happen, you can find evidence of it in Venezuelan twitter. If you’re gonna appeal to an American audience, help us out and point us to the data that backs your claims. Don’t cop out telling us to google Venezuelan Twitter.
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Jun 12, 2019 03:06
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Fiend posted:Come on man, you have to do better than this. Source your own assertions. what are you just asking him for pictures of the protests from a few years ago? This poo poo wasn't exactly a secret.
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Jun 12, 2019 03:23
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Fiend posted:Come on man, you have to do better than this. Source your own assertions. literally the easiest possible sourcing on the topic: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_protests_(2014%E2%80%93present) you're welcome
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Jun 12, 2019 03:30
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Fiend posted:Come on man, you have to do better than this. Source your own assertions. Read. The. Thread. No really. Read the thread. You’re asking me to rehash things that have occurred years ago and that are already documented in the thread. It’s not my job to educate you in this subject. You should have at least a baseline and most of you seem to have none bar what you understand of American politics. If you look for sources for your own loving statements you’ll see how they’ll fall apart because they’re nothing but conjectures. The Observatorio Venezolano de Conflictividad Social lists 1963 protests happening only in April 2019. 65 a day. An increment compared to previous years. Only the larger ones ever get covered by American media.
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Jun 12, 2019 08:12
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fnox posted:Read. The. Thread. Dude, you literally said that Pinochet would be better than Maduro, and you don't seem to have substantively moved away from that position since you said it. I don't think you're in any position to talk about people needing to educate themselves.
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Jun 12, 2019 08:38
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Majorian posted:Dude, you literally said that Pinochet would be better than Maduro, and you don't seem to have substantively moved away from that position since you said it. I don't think you're in any position to talk about people needing to educate themselves. Find the quote. That’s not what I said. Someone construed me saying that Maduro is about as bad if not worse than Pinochet as some sort of endorsement of Pinochet, despite me being very openly against any sort of military dictatorship, against Pinochet, and against Maduro. This is the point where you mention Elliot Abrams and baby skull smashing, and then claim that this is what I want also. Nice of you to omit the part of my post where I’m talking about things that discredit your claims btw. fnox fucked around with this message at 09:26 on Jun 12, 2019 |
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Jun 12, 2019 09:22
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fnox posted:Find the quote. That’s not what I said. Someone construed me saying that Maduro is about as bad if not worse than Pinochet as some sort of endorsement of Pinochet, despite me being very openly against any sort of military dictatorship, against Pinochet, and against Maduro. This is what you said: fnox posted:Maduro is worse than Pinochet by any metric. loving, please, find me one thing that Maduro has done right, one. It was ignorant in the extreme, and again, you don't seem to have evolved on the issue since then - even though multiple people have pointed out to you that Pinochet systematically killed orders of magnitude more people than Maduro has or likely will, given how weak his regime is.
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Jun 12, 2019 09:25
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Majorian posted:This is what you said: You don’t understand the scale of Maduro’s atrocity, and it will not be fully known until he’s out and many other things come to light. If you really think that he’s not on that same ballpark, I recommend you to look deeper, do your research on what SEBIN does, on why 4 million people have fled the country, on how life is for the average citizen, on how political opponents have been treated. Honestly, just look into what he’s done. Go look up what Maduro has caused.
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Jun 12, 2019 09:31
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fnox posted:You don’t understand the scale of Maduro’s atrocity, and it will not be fully known until he’s out and many other things come to light. If you really think that he’s not on that same ballpark, I recommend you to look deeper, do your research on what SEBIN does, on why 4 million people have fled the country, on how life is for the average citizen, on how political opponents have been treated. I think you’re the one who needs to do his homework if you’re going to compare one of the great monsters of the Cold War favorably with Maduro.
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Jun 12, 2019 09:34
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Majorian posted:I think you’re the one who needs to do his homework if you’re going to compare one of the great monsters of the Cold War favorably with Maduro. I’m not comparing him favorably. I AM NOT ENDORSING PINOCHET, for fucks sake. Stop making poo poo up. You are telling me that the man who has triggered the greatest refugee crisis in the continents history, is somehow not a monster? He’s guiltless and everyone who has fled is a gusano? Is that how it works? Why don’t you go out of your way and just ask these loving people what they think about that comparison?
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Jun 12, 2019 09:40
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fnox posted:You are telling me that the man who has triggered the greatest refugee crisis in the continents history, is somehow not a monster? He’s guiltless and everyone who has fled is a gusano? Is that how it works? Why don’t you go out of your way and just ask these loving people what they think about that comparison? I’ve never said that Maduro is guiltless; quite the opposite, I’ve frequently acknowledged ITT that he is a terrible ruler who has made his country poorer and more miserable. But I also have enough historical perspective to realize that your attitude of “Literally anyone would be better than Maduro” is short-sighted in the extreme. When you accuse people of engaging in sick fantasies when they warn about real-life atrocities committed by US-backed rightist governments, you betray your ignorance.
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Jun 12, 2019 09:47
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Majorian posted:I’ve never said that Maduro is guiltless; quite the opposite, I’ve frequently acknowledged ITT that he is a terrible ruler who has made his country poorer and more miserable. But I also have enough historical perspective to realize that your attitude of “Literally anyone would be better than Maduro” is short-sighted in the extreme. When you accuse people of engaging in sick fantasies when they warn about real-life atrocities committed by US-backed rightist governments, you betray your ignorance. Would anyone be better than Pinochet? Let’s flip this around. You’re a Chilean leftist now, living under tyrannical rule, would you do everything to get rid of Pinochet?
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Jun 12, 2019 09:53
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fnox posted:Would anyone be better than Pinochet? Let’s flip this around. You’re a Chilean leftist now, living under tyrannical rule, would you do everything to get rid of Pinochet? I certainly wouldn’t support a US attempt to put someone even more right-wing in power.
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Jun 12, 2019 09:55
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Majorian posted:I certainly wouldn’t support a US attempt to put someone even more right-wing in power. Would you support any leftist attempt to overthrow him? Where do you draw the line? If it’s backed by the Soviet Union, would you rather not support an attempt at overthrowing him because of foreign influence? Would you suffer instead for as long as you have to until a proper grassroots attempt at toppling him comes, even if it takes 30 years?
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Jun 12, 2019 10:02
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fnox posted:Would you support any leftist attempt to overthrow him? Where do you draw the line? If it’s backed by the Soviet Union, would you rather not support an attempt at overthrowing him because of foreign influence? Would you suffer instead for as long as you have to until a proper grassroots attempt at toppling him comes, even if it takes 30 years? The soviet union doesn't exist any more and Russia is not leftist.
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Jun 12, 2019 10:04
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fnox posted:Would you support any leftist attempt to overthrow him? Where do you draw the line? If it’s backed by the Soviet Union, would you rather not support an attempt at overthrowing him because of foreign influence? Would you suffer instead for as long as you have to until a proper grassroots attempt at toppling him comes, even if it takes 30 years? Turns out Soviet backed leaders weren't as wantonly murderous as US backed leaders and this calculus is quite easy.
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Jun 12, 2019 10:13
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lemonadesweetheart posted:The soviet union doesn't exist any more and Russia is not leftist. Did you just read the last post in the thread and decided to reply? WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Turns out Soviet backed leaders weren't as wantonly murderous as US backed leaders and this calculus is quite easy. So you would support a foreign backed movement to remove Pinochet at all costs if you were a Chilean leftist in the 80s?
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Jun 12, 2019 10:19
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fnox posted:Did you just read the last post in the thread and decided to reply? I thought we were arguing in bad faith. Did I do it wrong? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 12, 2019 10:21
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