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God drat I'm so happy I never went nuke Because I did so much better in the army lmao
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Jun 9, 2019 09:46
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Naval officers are treated like 19th century nobility, the Chiefs want their own tree fort and to be special boys too, the E-6s are 'mentored' as future Chiefs and click up/isolate from everyone in turn and E-5 and below get out or have battered wife syndrome. Maybe it's different in other places, my unit is pretty jacked up even by military standards
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Jun 9, 2019 12:02
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Nostalgia4Butts posted:wtf is a petty officer anyways Centuries ago back in the days of sail, there wasn't any sort of enlisted rank on the ship. Everyone was subordinate to the officers who were all some sort of nobility. Old salty sailors eventually were called petite officers as a way to signify that they were senior among the sailors. They were literally "little officers" in title. This eventually grew into further ranks and specializations with chief petty officers on top. All the navies of the world have basically the same enlisted and officer ranks. you start as a seaman, at some point you become a little officer, and then eventually a chief. officers have some sort of midshipman/ensign, lieutenant, captain, commodore, admiral progression.
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Jun 9, 2019 13:52
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As a brain damaged masochist that got out of the marine corps and went into the navy:WAR CRIME SYNDICAT posted:Navy is godamn weird, man The poo poo about addressing people by their rate instead of their rank is even weirder when it's written/typed instead of spoken, because any qualifications they've earned get tacked onto the title as well. So a dumbfuck electrician who is an e-5 and has been on a carrier would probably sign their emails as "EM2 SW/AW Dumbfuck" Petty officers as a concept really aren't any different from non-commissioned officers, but aren't used the same way in practice. It's piss easy to make it to e-4 and become a PO3, so nobody gives a gently caress about them. Enlisted sailors have roughly the same level of authority as a marine a full paygrade below them. The navy is such a god drat clusterfuck of pointless titles and meaningless "traditional" bullshit that it actually made me appreciate how organized the USMC was. Feel free to quote this post in the idiots thread because I belong there.
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Jun 9, 2019 15:52
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I was once briefly working with a marine LT and I kept calling him "ensign" on purpose because he was so fuckin annoying and when he corrected me i told him I had googled navy ranks and I was pretty sure he was an ensign meltdown was amazing
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Jun 9, 2019 16:31
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Smiling Jack posted:I was once briefly working with a marine LT and I kept calling him "ensign" on purpose because he was so fuckin annoying and when he corrected me i told him I had googled navy ranks and I was pretty sure he was an ensign Ahaha, bravo.
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Jun 9, 2019 17:12
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Meanwhile I got yelled at by a Marine E6 because I only called him Sergeant. Bitch I'm in the Army, we don't roll like that around here.
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Jun 9, 2019 17:15
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Holy loving poo poo somebody leaked Barkley Shut Up And Jam Gaiden 2!!! Thread post with the megaupload
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Jun 9, 2019 17:31
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The officer and enlisted divide seems a lot.... stricter?.... in the Marines and Navy compared to the Army. The Air Force on the other hand will have an E2 talking to a LTC about how their weekend was. Just my impressions from my brief experiences working with the other services.
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Jun 9, 2019 17:31
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Mustang posted:The officer and enlisted divide seems a lot.... stricter?.... in the Marines and Navy compared to the Army. The Air Force on the other hand will have an E2 talking to a LTC about how their weekend was. Navy ships have massive divides. Officers do not berth or eat with the crew. SNCOs have their own berthing and tree fort as well. It's possible as an officer on some navy ships to only have interactions with enlisted people when they serve you in the wardroom or when you walk past them cleaning something in a passageway.
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Jun 9, 2019 17:42
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A Bad Poster posted:Meanwhile I got yelled at by a Marine E6 because I only called him Sergeant. Bitch I'm in the Army, we don't roll like that around here. Oh my god Marine sergeants are ridiculous about that.
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Jun 9, 2019 17:49
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Mustang posted:The officer and enlisted divide seems a lot.... stricter?.... in the Marines and Navy compared to the Army. The Air Force on the other hand will have an E2 talking to a LTC about how their weekend was. In aircrew, the barriers are even smaller. We typically went by crew positions as identifiers. It was extremely ordinary for me to grab lunch or be invited over for dinner with a captain or major as an E-5. Hell, it was practically encouraged that flight engineers and pilots were on personal terms for the sake of the work.
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Jun 9, 2019 17:59
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ANG is even more open about it.
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Jun 9, 2019 19:41
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holocaust bloopers posted:Hell, it was practically encouraged that flight engineers and pilots were on personal terms for the sake of the work. What's the practical reason for air force pilots having officer ranks, unlike the front-line cannon fodder in other armed services?
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Jun 9, 2019 20:15
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https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?noseen=0&threadid=3851148&perpage=40&pagenumber=226#post495770034Cojawfee posted:From what I heard from the sailors I worked with, and just from my experience being around them, the navy is mostly about talking about dicks, being obsessed with dicks, drawing dicks, and putting your dick on things/other people. This guy gets it.
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Jun 9, 2019 20:54
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Mr. Nice! posted:Navy ships have massive divides. Officers do not berth or eat with the crew. SNCOs have their own berthing and tree fort as well. this probably comes from the proud naval tradition of murdering all the officers and stealing the ship
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Jun 9, 2019 21:02
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Herman Merman posted:What's the practical reason for air force pilots having officer ranks, unlike the front-line cannon fodder in other armed services? I’m not sure what you’re asking. Are pilots of foreign services not officers because I’m pretty sure they are.
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Jun 9, 2019 22:12
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Herman Merman posted:What's the practical reason for air force pilots having officer ranks, unlike the front-line cannon fodder in other armed services? Retention.
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Jun 9, 2019 22:14
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Herman Merman posted:What's the practical reason for air force pilots having officer ranks, unlike the front-line cannon fodder in other armed services? Pilots in all US armed services are officers. What?
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Jun 9, 2019 22:23
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Maybe he’s wondering why we don’t employ warrant officers. And the reason is simple. All airlines pay better than Warrant Officer pay.
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Jun 9, 2019 22:31
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Warrant officers are commissioned officers.
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Jun 9, 2019 22:34
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WAR CRIME SYNDICAT posted:Warrant officers are commissioned officers. I’m not sure that’s necessarily true for all CW1’s/CW2’s.
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Jun 9, 2019 22:38
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LtCol J. Krusinski posted:I’m not sure that’s necessarily true for all CW1’s/CW2’s. WO1 is not presidentially commissioned but CW2 and up are.
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Jun 9, 2019 22:45
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WAR CRIME SYNDICAT posted:WO1 is not presidential commissioned but CW2 and up are. Yeah I knew there was something screwy with it
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Jun 9, 2019 22:46
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holocaust bloopers posted:I’m not sure what you’re asking. Are pilots of foreign services not officers because I’m pretty sure they are. Can't speak of today, but at least as of WW2 the Finnish Air Force had both officer and nco pilots.
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Jun 10, 2019 08:35
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Ataxerxes posted:Can't speak of today, but at least as of WW2 the Finnish Air Force had both officer and nco pilots. In world War 2 the US did the same thing.
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Jun 10, 2019 08:42
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WAR CRIME SYNDICAT posted:Pilots in all US armed services are officers. What? Yes, and in most other armed forces around the world as well. I'm wondering what is the practical reason for that, since the pilot is also a frontline combatant, and to a layman it would seem they have very little need for command authority. Is it because they are responsible for a very expensive piece of equipment that, say, a staff sergeant cannot handle? Or to keep the civilian airlines from snatching them? Or for historical reasons?
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Jun 10, 2019 10:56
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Calvary was nobles and planes are just Pegasuses
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Jun 10, 2019 13:05
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In WW2 enlisted pilots were common, there were even black enlisted pilots so it’s not very historical. Most “professional” job equivalents seem to become officer jobs though because lol at convincing an enlisted pilot to re-enlist for poo poo pay and a bonus he would make less than a year on the outside. It’s not like there isn’t enough officers trying to become pilots unlike during WW2 when pilots were one of the shortest types of personnel in supply for most nations.
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Jun 10, 2019 14:11
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Herman Merman posted:Yes, and in most other armed forces around the world as well. I'm wondering what is the practical reason for that, since the pilot is also a frontline combatant, and to a layman it would seem they have very little need for command authority. Is it because they are responsible for a very expensive piece of equipment that, say, a staff sergeant cannot handle? Or to keep the civilian airlines from snatching them? Or for historical reasons? yes, yes, and yes. like others have said, every pilot currently in the military is a commissioned officer*, but that hasn't always been the case, and there have been many instances of enlisted pilots in the Army during WW2, Korea, Vietnam, and interwar periods. enlisted air crewmembers are still used by every service as well. the army differs from the other branches by using warrant officers for the majority of the pilot coded positions. the official reason given for has varied but is usually for the technical expertise a warrant officer brings over the course of a piloting career, versus an O-grade that spends most of the time out of the cockpit, i.e. command time or staff time. in reality, warrants cost the army significantly less to pay than the pay differential of 25,000 more officers. there are also hard limits set by Congress on how many officers each service is authorized, and using warrants allows the army to circumvent the officer cap without hamstringing other functional areas of the army. *WO1s are technically all part of the army reserve, regardless of active duty status and are not commissioned until CW2. this makes them easier to separate if they, for example, fail flight school.
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Jun 10, 2019 15:46
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Herman Merman posted:Yes, and in most other armed forces around the world as well. I'm wondering what is the practical reason for that, since the pilot is also a frontline combatant, and to a layman it would seem they have very little need for command authority. Is it because they are responsible for a very expensive piece of equipment that, say, a staff sergeant cannot handle? Or to keep the civilian airlines from snatching them? Or for historical reasons? The reason Holly boops and I are confused, I think, is because you specifically asked about the Air Force.
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Jun 10, 2019 16:31
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Herman Merman posted:Yes, and in most other armed forces around the world as well. I'm wondering what is the practical reason for that, since the pilot is also a frontline combatant, and to a layman it would seem they have very little need for command authority. Is it because they are responsible for a very expensive piece of equipment that, say, a staff sergeant cannot handle? Or to keep the civilian airlines from snatching them? Or for historical reasons? The two big reasons are that (many) pilots are in position to kill a lot more people than the average soldier. Rank commensurate with responsibility, more or less. The other reason, much more relevant today, is that pilots are really loving expensive to train. It's a couple million bucks EACH by the time they get their full CMR qual. So the AF really wants to keep them as long as possible. That's why there's an 8 year commitment, which doesn't even start until you pin on your wings...but at the end of that commitment dudes are sprinting for the doors because the bullshit level is not worth the salary. So using enlisted or WO pilots, getting paid somewhere between 1/2 and 3/4 of the salary but dealing with 95% of the bullshit isn't going to solve the problem, it's going to make things much, much worse. brains posted:in reality, warrants cost the army significantly less to pay than the pay differential of 25,000 more officers. there are also hard limits set by Congress on how many officers each service is authorized, and using warrants allows the army to circumvent the officer cap without hamstringing other functional areas of the army. CWO2 and above count against the number of commissioned officers. They're not circumventing anything, but they are paying less per person. That's the other reason the USAF is never going to put WOs in cockpits, even if they brought WOs back. It doesn't change the "asses in seats" math, it just pays that person a bit less which makes the fundamental problem (retention) worse. Aside from the paycheck, it doesn't matter if that pilot is a CWO3 or a major, they both get counted against the officer limit. Godholio fucked around with this message at 21:10 on Jun 10, 2019 |
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Jun 10, 2019 21:07
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wasn't the AF offering 150k reup bonuses for F22 pilots a while back and still only getting like a 30% take rate?
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Jun 11, 2019 02:55
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What happens if you commit to 8 years but fail out of Flight School? You’re spending your 8 years playing golf and pushing papers?
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Jun 11, 2019 03:14
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Nystral posted:What happens if you commit to 8 years but fail out of Flight School? You’re spending your 8 years playing golf and pushing papers? The Air Force is unkind to those who cannot pass their respective schoolhouses.
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Jun 11, 2019 03:16
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I thought it was 10 years after flight school.
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Jun 11, 2019 03:19
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Nystral posted:What happens if you commit to 8 years but fail out of Flight School? You’re spending your 8 years playing golf and pushing papers? I can't speak for the Air Force, but for the Navy that commitment only kicks in once you get winged. If you fail out before that, you can often redesignate to a different community like supply or Intel, or sometimes they'll just let you leave. I have a buddy who failed out on the last training event before getting winged, like two years into flight school, and the Navy was entirely prepared to let him just walk away and go into the civilian sector.
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Jun 11, 2019 04:02
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Godholio posted:the bullshit level is not worth the salary. This only holds true with the specific caveat that it's not worth the salary IF the assumption (reasonably) is that a pilot exits to get a job using their pilot qualifications. USAF pilot bullshit levels are as or more cushy than other branches, and an Air Force pilot is being paid over six figure by the time they can consider exiting the service. So it's not that the bullshit is too much for the salary. It's that they have a specific skill they can often leverage to get out. Another USAF problem: The USAF model requires a higher than average number of pilots to stick around for 20+ years compared to your average officer in the US military. Something like 50%(!) more. That doesn't happen. They retain about 15-20% fewer pilots than the military typically retains officers of any type. So aiming for 150% retention compared with peers and achieving about 83% retention is missing the mark in a big way, even if it's not that far off from the retention seen in other jobs/branches. It's less that USAF pilots are leaving in droves and more that they aren't staying around at abnormally high rates. The main things the USAF pilots complain about are not unique; they just have unique qualifications to help make transition out of the military easier than most. Their top complaints are things like extra duties, moving too much, disliking deployments, military bases not being nice enough, getting jobs they don't like, disliking "up or out". Another challenge, not just for the USAF, but for retention in general in civilian and military life: People are not that reliable in answering with what would keep them around or make them happy in a poll. It's not that they're dishonest; it's that people sometimes just really don't understand what's motivating them to either stay or go.
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Jun 11, 2019 05:05
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I was going to be say "more money" but they're already being offered insane amounts to stick around. I'm guessing the second option is either "less bullshit" or "let me kill more people".
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Jun 11, 2019 05:14
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Wingnut Ninja posted:I can't speak for the Air Force, but for the Navy that commitment only kicks in once you get winged. If you fail out before that, you can often redesignate to a different community like supply or Intel, or sometimes they'll just let you leave. I have a buddy who failed out on the last training event before getting winged, like two years into flight school, and the Navy was entirely prepared to let him just walk away and go into the civilian sector. A lot of officer SEAL candidates just leave the Navy. Meanwhile, for the enlisted drops, welcome to deck department.
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Jun 11, 2019 12:35
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