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gently caress it, maybe it's just me. Cap irks me from top to bottom, not the least of which being by draped in a flag, it's entirely possible I'm reading too much into it. Edit: That's a lovely snipe. Here's my favorite page that Grant Morrison has ever done, which I think qualifies as touching because it never fails to put a smile on my face: 
Cabbit fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Jun 15, 2019 |
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Jun 15, 2019 18:06
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one thing i think thats missing in context of these panels in particular is that its soon after this arc that cap goes back and becomes a raging rear end in a top hat who devotes all his (and shields) time trying to hunt down the illuminati because they wronged him, and not actually doing anything about the incursions.
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Jun 15, 2019 18:09
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ImpAtom posted:I don't really agree with that. It's a power fantasy but the power fantasy is being able to stand up for your beliefs even in the face of people arguing they are implausible/unrealistic/childish. Yes, this can be twisted into horrible beliefs, but that compassion is at the center of why it works. It isn't 'great man' theory, it's the idea that you don't have to bend or compromise on what is right in favor of what is easy. I have to agree. The natural end of that line of 'heroism' lies in the Sword of Truth objectivist heroes. "See, I -have- to slaughter these pacifists! Otherwise the villain will take their lands and grow stronger! YOU are the hypocrite and fool for daring to tell me I should do otherwise!"
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Jun 15, 2019 18:16
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Cabbit posted:Again, I'm not talking about the other dudes and their "we must do this awful thing because it is necessary" crap; that is also garbage, but it's garbage everyone knows is garbage, so quite frankly I'm less concerned with it. Cap, specifically, irks me with his spiel because it comes off like prioritization or triage is some sort of "lesser of two evils" poo poo, and that he's justified in this because he's Captain America, Marvel's conscience-- like it's some kind of noble goal that he's not thinking about where and how he could do the most effective good. That isn't really what is being said there. The issue with prioritization or triage is that it is inherently a 'hard man making hard decisions' thing. Captain America is rejecting the idea that you have to give up on seeking the best possible outcome. He's specifically talking to three supervillains who are saying "this is futile and useless, give up, choose the easy path where you sacrifice people for less risk, it's even morally justified" and he says no. And yes, that's power fantasy. It's power fantasy to have the ability to take the risky and dangerous path and for it to come out ahead. But at the end of the day if I have to pick my power fantasy, I'd rather pick the one about people trying to do good and help others, rather than the one where I'm seeking moral justification to kill innocent or defenseless people in the name of the greater good. Both are equally implausible, it is just that the latter has an air of gut-response plausibility to it. The fact that heroes are willing to take the route for the best outcome, not the safest outcome, is what makes the inherent fascist tendencies in the concept palatable to me. No, it isn't realistic, but it isn't trying to be realistic. It's striving for an ideal even in the vein of fiction. (And likewise I hate when comics try to argue the 'flaws' in doing the best because 9 times out of 10 they're only flaws that exist because superhero comics need to keep coming out monthly with marketable characters.)
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Jun 15, 2019 18:22
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a really good Captain America story should read almost the same as a really good Superman story, and there will always be people who believe neither thing can exist
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Jun 15, 2019 18:26
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Otoyomegatari - The Bride's Story - Chapter 81 (Right to Left)      'Otoyomegatari - The Bride's Story' can be read here Highly recommended I've posted about it before in the Good/Bad Art Thread and it's just an absolutely breathtaking series from an art perspective.
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Jun 15, 2019 19:11
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Cabbit posted:gently caress it, maybe it's just me. Cap irks me from top to bottom, not the least of which being by draped in a flag, it's entirely possible I'm reading too much into it. FWIW even though I didn’t agree with where you landed on it either, nothing wrong with having a different reading on it, not like there aren’t plenty of valid reasons to read way too much into a symbol like that.
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Jun 15, 2019 19:33
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site posted:one thing i think thats missing in context of these panels in particular is that its soon after this arc that cap goes back and becomes a raging rear end in a top hat who devotes all his (and shields) time trying to hunt down the illuminati because they wronged him, and not actually doing anything about the incursions. Then Cap and Iron Man die in the mud, beating the poo poo out of each other as the universe collapses.
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Jun 15, 2019 22:04
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The Question IRL posted:I am too, but I suspect for different reasons than you. Yes, giving the loving Marvel Comics Universe an ending is one of the major reasons I blame it for the tanked sales. The other is thrusting heroes who are supposed to save lives into a bunch of situations where they had to do genocides for the greater good. You can't unring that bell, not matter how many mindwipes and time travels you put in. quote:As he points out, Cap has been around since World War 2. He's no stranger to the idea that problems are complex and choices have to be made. Minimizing overall harm is the greatest good one can ethically strive for so I don't even agree with the basic philosophical point there. True callous evil comes when you make a triage of who deserves that greater good above others. Cabbit posted:gently caress it, maybe it's just me. Cap irks me from top to bottom, not the least of which being by draped in a flag, it's entirely possible I'm reading too much into it. I would destroy America as a country* if I was given half a chance but I still really like Captain America. Now Superman, that guy pisses me off. *as in dismantle its systems, not blow it up Lurdiak fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Jun 15, 2019 |
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Jun 15, 2019 22:15
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If comics had definite endings maybe we'd see something new once in a while
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Jun 15, 2019 22:24
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Lurdiak posted:Yes, giving the loving Marvel Comics Universe an ending is one of the major reasons I blame it for the tanked sales. The other is thrusting heroes who are supposed to save lives into a bunch of situations where they had to do genocides for the greater good. You can't unring that bell, not matter how many mindwipes and time travels you put in. Okay this is bullshit. Reed Tony and beast never blew up a populated earth. In fact when the moment comes everyone can't pull the trigger. They're heroes to the core and trading lives goes against everything they believe in. It's namor who pulls the trigger and it'd him and thanos are the ones who kill people. I dont get people saying Hickman's run tears down heroism. It's a celebration of it. The ending Reed has reedi going gently caress entropy and universal heat death people will live on. That's comic book goodness to the core. Monaghan fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Jun 15, 2019 |
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Jun 15, 2019 23:00
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The marvel universe didn't end in any meaningful way and no one knows in universe or cares irl about anyone blowing up earths during secret wars
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Jun 15, 2019 23:05
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Captain America is kind of an expert at giving speeches that sound good on paper but are kind of horrible when you think about it. Like his speech about not moving, even when the whole world is telling you you're wrong. (His speech to the fake Cap america is great though) Cabbit posted:gently caress it, maybe it's just me. Cap irks me from top to bottom, not the least of which being by draped in a flag, it's entirely possible I'm reading too much into it. You're a good egg, Cabbit.
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Jun 15, 2019 23:09
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Samuringa posted:If comics had definite endings maybe we'd see something new once in a while 
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Jun 15, 2019 23:13
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McCloud posted:Captain America is kind of an expert at giving speeches that sound good on paper but are kind of horrible when you think about it. Like his speech about not moving, even when the whole world is telling you you're wrong. Eh. I don't really agree. I know you can twist it to "but that means someone who thinks something horrible will also think to never move" but that basically is going to apply to any encouraging or confident speech. Short of trying to bring nuance to something specifically designed to be emotional, you can't really avoid that.
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Jun 15, 2019 23:14
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Secret Wars gave us Miles Morales in 616 and brought his mom back so it was an unqualified success.
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Jun 15, 2019 23:29
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ImpAtom posted:Eh. I don't really agree. There's no twisting involved. he almost literally saying "when everyone is telling you you're wrong, stand your ground and tell them to gently caress off", in a way few other "inspiring" speeches do. It's actually uniquely terrible in that sense. Like, if the whole world is telling you something, maybe you should listen to them instead of being a defiant jerk about it. If anti-vaxxers, climate change deniers and flat earthers can use it as a rallying cry then you probably wrote a poo poo speech
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Jun 16, 2019 00:53
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LordSaturn posted:a really good Captain America story should read almost the same as a really good Superman story, and there will always be people who believe neither thing can exist This, basically. I don't have the panels on hand to make this worth a long post, but I will say that at a time where it feels like all of fictional media is obsessed with making hard choices and doing a little bad to accomplish some good, it's nice to have characters that just choose to do good. Yes a lot of that is that they have these fantastic powers to allow them that choice, but they still make it and that's worth having.
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Jun 16, 2019 01:18
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It's like that really good scene in the first Spider-man movie.
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Jun 16, 2019 01:23
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TwoPair posted:Avengers 34: Captain America is at the end of time being told (by 3 different versions of Kang the Conqueror) that if he wants to save the world he has to let Tony Stark and the Illuminati carry out their plans and blow up alternate earths. Sorry, the best zinger is, "No one here... cares." Lurdiak posted:It's like that really good scene in the first Spider-man movie. What does this have to do with Gobby being the one who's out?
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Jun 16, 2019 03:06
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McCloud posted:There's no twisting involved. he almost literally saying "when everyone is telling you you're wrong, stand your ground and tell them to gently caress off", in a way few other "inspiring" speeches do. It's actually uniquely terrible in that sense. Like, if the whole world is telling you something, maybe you should listen to them instead of being a defiant jerk about it. So your argument is "if a lot of people say something, even if you personally believe it is wrong, then just bend over and say they're right and otherwise you're an arrogant jerk?" Because guess what? "If everyone says something it must be true" is the rallying cry for racists, homophobes and lots of other awful people. There mere fact that you are unironically saying "Oh well, no matter what you feel, if other people say it's wrong then they must be right if there are enough of them" is loving mind-boggling. " Even beyond that, it's incredibly dumb if you unironically say that something is a 'poo poo speech' if a terrible person can twist it to their own crappy philosophy, because that happens with literally every speech of any significance. Like seriously? You can point to any speech (fictional or real) on the planet and someone will twist it to their own goals if they want to. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 03:28 on Jun 16, 2019 |
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Jun 16, 2019 03:24
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even the most plushy, simplistic carebear bullshit for kids can be twisted around "follow your heart" well my heart says [something terrible] "believe in yourself" well I believe I can accomplish [something grotesque] "good should triumph, fight evil" well I think it's the jedi, who are evil "anything about the power of friendship" I will proceed to guilt and weigh on everyone who called me friend prior to me doing some foul poo poo, they can't just turn their backs on me, that's not real friendship if they can just walk away because I did [something horrible] they disagree with also one protagonist sticking by their beliefs (which turn out to be right) in the face of all the jaded adults / the rest of the force / the close minded residents of a small town is like, the basic backbone of a million stories. Fox Mulder is no more sinister for insisting aliens are real than Cap is for his hokey speech
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Jun 16, 2019 04:13
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People give that speech a lot of poo poo because it was written by JMS, who is widely considered a deeply flawed writer, and was part of an event that was shoddily constructed and ideologically misguided at best. As a Captain America speech it's ok, sort of meaningless but hits the right beats, but as a JMS speech it suggests a lot of the arrogance and self-righteous that characterizes his writing for many readers. So, it's a text that comes with a bit of baggage.
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Jun 16, 2019 04:20
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Archyduchess posted:People give that speech a lot of poo poo because it was written by JMS, who is widely considered a deeply flawed writer, and was part of an event that was shoddily constructed and ideologically misguided at best. As a Captain America speech it's ok, sort of meaningless but hits the right beats, but as a JMS speech it suggests a lot of the arrogance and self-righteous that characterizes his writing for many readers. So, it's a text that comes with a bit of baggage. Honestly that's a fine criticism and I absolutely can understand and agree with it. "An Anti-Vaxxer might use it to defend themselves?" is sheer nonsense.
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Jun 16, 2019 04:24
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McCloud posted:There's no twisting involved. he almost literally saying "when everyone is telling you you're wrong, stand your ground and tell them to gently caress off", in a way few other "inspiring" speeches do. It's actually uniquely terrible in that sense. Like, if the whole world is telling you something, maybe you should listen to them instead of being a defiant jerk about it. Yeah but again, you can take all sorts of inspirational quotes and twist them to be about bullshit ideals. Everyone knows the Cap "no, you move" panel, but in the context of the original issue it was printed (Amazing Spider-Man #537) that follows a long sequence where he quotes Mark Twain almost verbatim like aside from one sentence it is literally this posted:For in a republic, who is "the Country"? Is it the Government which is for the moment in the saddle? Why, the Government is merely a servant- merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn't. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them. Who, then, is "the Country"? Is it the newspaper? is it the pulpit? Is it the school superintendent? Why, these are mere parts of the country, not the whole of it; they have not command, they have only their little share in the command. They are but one in a thousand; it is in the thousand that command is lodged; they must determine what is right and what is wrong; they must decide who is a patriot and who isn't. Also, while the reader can see it as relevant to themselves, in the context of the story, Captain America is talking to Spider-Man, who is feeling conflicted in the Civil War. In this context, it's not "do whatever the gently caress you want" it's "pick what side of this particular conflict you feel to be just".
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Jun 16, 2019 04:29
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I have reached such a level of irony that I can no longer tell whether this is a good rebuttal or an agreement, but I feel this is a good post regardless.
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Jun 16, 2019 05:19
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Rhyno posted:Hickman's run is fantastic, what are you guys smoking. Yeah seriously, if Hickman hadn't been doing what he had been doing, Ewing wouldn't have got his hands on Mighty Avengers and made Blue Marvel the absolute badass he is, turning Monica back to her Nextwave badass self. The only obviously weakest part of Hickman's run was having to adapt poo poo to Sixis, and his Infinity main book wasn't that great either due to Marvel's push for Inhuman focus at the time. His Avengers and New Avengers were consistently good to amazing, same goes for his FF. Which also turned me onto Nick Dragotta's art harkening back to a more modernized Hanna-Barbera style that would fit in with Johnny Quest.
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Jun 16, 2019 08:48
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I guess my problem with the whole idea of Cap being always treated as in the right since he's Captain America is because he's Captain America. It just feels kind of weird.DivineCoffeeBinge posted:some of it? I thought the only trace of Morrison's run nowadays is that Jean Grey became the new leader of the X-Men in X-Men: Red. Don't tell me they walked that back as well?
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Jun 16, 2019 10:01
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amigolupus posted:I guess my problem with the whole idea of Cap being always treated as in the right since he's Captain America is because he's Captain America. It just feels kind of weird. He killed Richard Nixon. What more do you want the man to do?
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Jun 16, 2019 10:24
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This is unironically why manga is a great counterpart to comics, because once a series ends they don't reboot the drat thing and there's not 7 different series of the same character. Like the genre def has it's own trope issues, but it's nice to not have to worry about whether or not a character stays dead  wrt to Cap, I feel like he's a difficult character to handle if you're going to pull the "No ma'am I come from a simpler time where we stand up for what's right" card; and it's probably a very fine line to walk between making it sound poignant and making him sound like an idiot.
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Jun 16, 2019 10:31
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Infinitum posted:Like the genre def has it's own trope issues, but it's nice to not have to worry about whether or not a character stays dead goku
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Jun 16, 2019 10:35
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Fair cop
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Jun 16, 2019 10:40
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not just goku but lmao 'we didnt like the ending so we're remaking it from this point' :v
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Jun 16, 2019 11:55
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Archyduchess posted:People give that speech a lot of poo poo because it was written by JMS, who is widely considered a deeply flawed writer, and was part of an event that was shoddily constructed and ideologically misguided at best. As a Captain America speech it's ok, sort of meaningless but hits the right beats, but as a JMS speech it suggests a lot of the arrogance and self-righteous that characterizes his writing for many readers. So, it's a text that comes with a bit of baggage. tbh i actually feel ike the adapted version in the civil war movie worked better because of this
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Jun 16, 2019 15:54
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Infinitum posted:This is unironically why manga is a great counterpart to comics, because once a series ends they don't reboot the drat thing and there's not 7 different series of the same character. I suddenly understand why the Fate series is so big for western audiences now.
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Jun 16, 2019 16:06
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site posted:tbh i actually feel ike the adapted version in the civil war movie worked better because of this Definitely. When the announced CW was being adapted I felt a little sick but the film version is infinitely better than the comic.
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Jun 16, 2019 16:18
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Hell, the version in Ultimate Alliance 2 was infinitely better than the comics.
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Jun 16, 2019 16:23
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Rhyno posted:Definitely. When the announced CW was being adapted I felt a little sick but the film version is infinitely better than the comic. I agree with you and site. I think part of it is that, as a line-wide crossover, CW was incredibly confused, with every other writer seeming to have a different understanding of the basic premise. The movie was a smaller, more intimate story and some ways, and benefited from a tighter writing process I think. Also, you know, it wasn't helmed essentially by Mark Millar and JMS playing Dueling Idiot Pianos at each other for six months.
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Jun 16, 2019 17:50
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Cabbit posted:gently caress it, maybe it's just me. Cap irks me from top to bottom, not the least of which being by draped in a flag, it's entirely possible I'm reading too much into it. For sale: baby shoes, never worn The kid just keeps flying around the ceiling, for gosh sake! Won’t put ‘em on!
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Jun 16, 2019 19:20
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Mister Mind posted:For sale: Seller: Letitia Lerner
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