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HannibalBarca posted:I can take or leave his interpretation of KOTM, but (purposefully?) misremembering Ghidorah, the Three-Headed Monster is where I draw the line. Well especially when he said no Godzilla movie has ever had any themes of royalty or the like...then he himself discusses the plot of Ghidorah as being about a revolutionary princess.
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Jun 15, 2019 20:27
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Just saw it, felt kinda let down. The good stuff I really loved, but JFC you can cut out like 1 hour of humans and nothing would change. gently caress that main family in particular.
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Jun 15, 2019 20:31
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The Golden Gael posted:Well especially when he said no Godzilla movie has ever had any themes of royalty or the like...then he himself discusses the plot of Ghidorah as being about a revolutionary princess. The movie isn’t about royalty though. It has nothing in it about the concept of monarchy it just features a character whose backstory is “Himalayan princess” or whatever. The closest it comes to a perspective on royalty is that Selina achieves more as a homeless street preacher than as a monarch
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Jun 15, 2019 20:37
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzZiiHgOpBM
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Jun 15, 2019 20:42
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DeimosRising posted:The movie isn’t about royalty though. It has nothing in it about the concept of monarchy it just features a character whose backstory is “Himalayan princess” or whatever. The closest it comes to a perspective on royalty is that Selina achieves more as a homeless street preacher than as a monarch Yes but if you want to really read into it as SMG is fond of, the deeper narrative there is an unlawful King taking over the rightful succession, supposedly killing the true ruler and trying to take their place until outside powers save them and help them reclaim their throne. Which is the literal plot of that subplot. In that movie. That happened. Do I think it matters? No, but that is the truth and that's what's going on. Though on an amusing note, the one who saves the day? Ghidorah himself. He almost single handedly kills the human bad guys by accident because kaiju do not care about human squabbles.
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Jun 15, 2019 20:43
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That pro-Godzilla underwater city was implied to be Atlantis right?
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Jun 15, 2019 21:45
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^^^^^^ was the ruin in the pacific or atlantic? If pacific it could be lemuria, which is brought up in older movies. I’ve always assumed that the universe where kaiju exist is one where a lot of psuedo-science is also more viable. The unreality of Moby Dick is characterized further in the book by suggestions that the whale can travel through underwater tunnels that allow it to pop up in many places far apart from each other. Like the kaiju are allegories, the ocean/the deep earth is the subconsciousness these things rise out of, and like the hollow tunnels, things connect beneath that water in ways we don’t clearly know. From wikipedia: ‘Monster derives from the Latin monstrum, itself derived ultimately from the verb moneo ("to remind, warn, instruct, or foretell"), and denotes anything "strange or singular, contrary to the usual course of nature, by which the gods give notice of evil," "a strange, unnatural, hideous person, animal, or thing," or any "monstrous or unusual thing, circumstance, or adventure."’ Peacoffee fucked around with this message at 22:07 on Jun 15, 2019 |
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Jun 15, 2019 21:59
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Zedd posted:That pro-Godzilla underwater city was implied to be Atlantis right? Either that or some blah-blah, ancient civilization mumbo jumbo, blah-blah, something about conspiracies.
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Jun 15, 2019 22:01
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They got there from Bermuda (I think), so I assume Atlantic.
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Jun 15, 2019 22:01
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I just assume it was either Mu or Seatopia myself
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Jun 15, 2019 22:05
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Zedd posted:That pro-Godzilla underwater city was implied to be Atlantis right? Seatopia!
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Jun 15, 2019 22:07
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It was obviously Mu or Lemuria.
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Jun 15, 2019 23:11
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HannibalBarca posted:I can take or leave his interpretation of KOTM, but (purposefully?) misremembering Ghidorah, the Three-Headed Monster is where I draw the line. Instead of accusations and conspiracy theories, you can just explain what your objection is. I did not misremember the plot of the film. I watched it two days ago. The princess is “Royal Princess Salno of Selgina, a small country between the two worlds.” That’s a pretty clear reference to the Cold War concept of “First World“ and “Second World”. It’s why she’s facing assassination attempts. What else would that be referring to? The Golden Gael posted:Well especially when he said no Godzilla movie has ever had any themes of royalty or the like...then he himself discusses the plot of Ghidorah as being about a revolutionary princess. I said that no other Godzilla movie was preoccupied with Godzilla’s royalty. The royalty of the monsters. Burkion posted:The moment he opened with "this movie is incomprehensible" was the big clue The film’s family narrative is quite incomprehensible. Like, prove me wrong. Examples: In Gojira 1954, Godzilla is an externalizations of Serizawa’s drive to develop the oxygen destroyer. In Godzilla 2014, Godzilla was the spirit of Brody’s dad. We can say the same for pretty much any film. In Shin Godzilla, the monster emerges from the exact point where the doctor commited suicide. In this film, there is presumably something going on with the three heads and the three members of the family, but the editing that would make those kinds of associations is just awful. We all know that big chunks just aren’t there, so where does the alcoholism part fit in? Why is Rodan here?
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Jun 16, 2019 00:03
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Zedd posted:Just saw it, felt kinda let down. Man, for real. I liked a good deal of what I saw here but...jeez...I can't argue it's a good film. You could have done away with the main family entirely, combined a few of the other Monarch characters along with their motivations and made the movie significantly better using addition by subtraction. Also, you had some good to great actors delivering god awful terrible performances here. I watched Shin Godzilla with my son after this one and holy poo poo does that film ever get it right. I have some gripes with it also but none are as frustrating as those in KOTM. The B&W original does a better job, in fact, of demonstrating the the entire "holy poo poo" element and sheer scale of the thing. Someone else posted something like "it's about humanity and civilization itself, not humans and their individual stories" and that nails it but that larger armageddon factor is never reflected here beyond the Rodan breakout. "Welp, OK, just evacuate these huge major cities real quick" and send them...where exactly...? as all hell is breaking loose on a truly global scale? I've evacuated from hurricanes that had more logistical issues shown in this film and Gidhora is carrying category 5's with him everywhere he goes with rapid speed. The disastrous elements we're shown rarely amount to more than minor inconveniences for anyone.
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Jun 16, 2019 00:22
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:
I think this stuff is the reason why I wondered why they bothered including the family plot in the film, even though I know removing all human related nonsense would maybe make the movie lack context. As SMG points out here, the human plot and specifically the mum/dad/daughter plot is totally disconnected from the kaiju stuff. In '14 godzilla, Big G himself can be read as Bryan Cranston's vengeful spirit and the focus on the brody family is reflected in the motivations and actions of the MUTOs. The Captain Ahab style plot in Skull Island directly links humans and Kong. In Shin Godzilla, which I actually find kind of similar in a thematic way to both The Death of Stalin and the recent Chernobyl tv show, the bureaucratic black comedy is directly related to the very alien and terrifying appearance of Godzilla, so the human plot there doesn't feel disconnected because all the confusion and pointless meetings serve to show the characters trying to make sense of something that is inexplicable. The family plot in KOTM just doesn't connect. I know the son/brother was killed in San Fran in the prequel, but what does the family falling apart and Vera having the Stupidest Plan of All Time have to do with the monsters thematically? They are part of the machinations of the plot, but in terms of meaning as far as the family is concerned the same plot could occur with any major disaster like earthquakes or war, the kaiju seem to be in a totally different movie to the humans. quote:Why is Rodan here? This is a really important question. We all love Rodan and like seeing him destroy poo poo just by flying over, but story wise he just has no real connection to anything. He's just there because it's nice to see him I guess?
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Jun 16, 2019 00:46
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People die because Vera Farmiga wanted Rodan to fly over them and wreck havoc with Ghidorah, but by the end of the movie even he knows following Ghidorah is a lovely idea.
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Jun 16, 2019 00:57
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I think this is kind of the problem. It can be very appreciated when the themes of the movie intersect narratively, but they don't really HAVE to on a subtextual level. The kaiju in this movie aren't really reflections of humanity, but their own individual entities that mankind puts their interpretations, ideas, and representations onto. Rodan isn't there to represent anyone, he is an individual entity. Mankind has placed the representation of a fire demon or volcano god on him, but he exists for his own purposes and disregards humans almost entirely. In the theme of the narrative, he's there because there are 20 known kaiju in the world, and he's one of them. The ecoterrorists have placed on him the idea that he's a nurturing figure made to raze and regrow the natural world, and that leads to the overall antagonist being granted a very effective ally. Metatextually, he's never meant much of anything, and the script requires someone to show up and wreck things and then bow to the true antagonist, Ghidorah, which technically could have been anyone, but why not have someone well-known? The defense of "the other films have done this, so who cares if this one did" isn't an innately rock solid argument, but the question really turns into "why does it matter that there isn't a subtextual link between the kaiju and the main family"? Does a film have to have space for a literary analysis major to bullshit connections between technically unrelated and unimportant aspects to be worthwhile, comprehensible, or enjoyable? The raw script and plot work well and are easily understandable to people paying attention. Does that mean it's still objectively bad, even though literary analysis is, in itself, absurdly subjective and generally irrelevant to the intentions of the writer?
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Jun 16, 2019 01:11
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It's worth noting that once again Mothra had to die for the sins of man - that is to say, if mankind didn't gently caress up with the Oxygen Destroyer, would she have needed to give her life for Godzilla? The movie is a continuation to the spirit of the characters throughout the movies. Dougherty alluded to this with how Rodan was born of a volcano, where his parents died.
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Jun 16, 2019 01:21
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The Golden Gael posted:It's worth noting that once again Mothra had to die for the sins of man - that is to say, if mankind didn't gently caress up with the Oxygen Destroyer, would she have needed to give her life for Godzilla? The movie is a continuation to the spirit of the characters throughout the movies. Dougherty alluded to this with how Rodan was born of a volcano, where his parents died. Nah. The movie does a pretty good job showing that Godzilla is basically unbeatable in the ocean.
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Jun 16, 2019 01:55
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Squidtentacle posted:The kaiju in this movie aren't really reflections of humanity, but their own individual entities that mankind puts their interpretations, ideas, and representations onto. And that’s monkeycheese. Under that lens, the movie becomes about, well, what if The Giant Claw were real and made entirely out of magma? Answer: we could befriend a moth and inject him with a temporarily-paralyzing moth poison so that, when he wakes up, he feels less self-esteem. And that’s also just straightforwardly false. Not only does it ascribe done kind of neutral apolitical/non-ideological POV to this Hollywood blockbuster about FAMILY, but there is a very clear association made between Ghidorah and the otherwise-useless Charles Dance character. From there, we can detect vague hints throughout that this to be read as a conflict between between two husbands. At the end, Farmhglia rejects her false partner and “hail[s] to the king” as if to bless the new union between White Dad and the twin who is conspicuously in the background when he and his daughter fly away. This is why Mothra sacrifices herself earlier to empower Godzilla, Rodan is wounded & tamed, and we end with the promise that Godzilla will have a new wife. So Rodan is the daughter...? But this is all academic, because everyone hates the human characters, and consequently nobody sees Rodan and Ghidorah’s teamup as a stepfather-daughter dynamic.
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Jun 16, 2019 02:26
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So what about the last two paragraphs of my post, where I ask why these attempts to assign a subtextual relation between the family and the kaiju actually matters as to determining whether the movie is comprehensible, worthwhile, or enjoyable?
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Jun 16, 2019 02:32
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Squidtentacle posted:So what about the last two paragraphs of my post, where I ask why these attempts to assign a subtextual relation between the family and the kaiju actually matters as to determining whether the movie is comprehensible, worthwhile, or enjoyable? Get ready for that to be spun off into something else entirely when he responds
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Jun 16, 2019 03:01
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Squidtentacle posted:So what about the last two paragraphs of my post, where I ask why these attempts to assign a subtextual relation between the family and the kaiju actually matters as to determining whether the movie is comprehensible, worthwhile, or enjoyable? Because, in a straightforward way, you don’t actually enjoy the movie. You didn’t follow the story (and I don’t blame you), so was it worth the time? Simply, you don’t enjoy that White Dad became an alcoholic (offscreen, expressed entirely through exposition) because he blamed himself for failing to save his son from the MUTOs in the previous film (offscreen, not even expressed through dialogue), and even though he went through rehab (offscreen, implicit in dialogue) he still hates himself - and this self hatred is projected onto Godzilla, hence his initial hatred of Godzilla. So the ultimate decision to ally with Godzilla doesn’t have the impact it does in the better films. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 16, 2019 03:39
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I do love that Seatopia is completely inexplicable without some crazy poo poo because it's so deep underwater even a submarine has trouble and so radioactive it kills humans in minutes. Though quite possibly it wasn't always either.
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Jun 16, 2019 03:44
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Burkion posted:Yeah it should. That's SMG's gimmick when he's in moods like this. I'm still trying to figure out why people just don't recognize this as trolling. Especially now that he's got a drat rap sheet about it. BiggerBoat posted:The disastrous elements we're shown rarely amount to more than minor inconveniences for anyone. I loved this film for its highs but it really annoyed me when it took Hollywood Action Script shortcuts like this. I mean, we all saw what happened during Katrina and this film's own flashback to San Francisco, are you telling me Boston was evacuated in a calm and orderly fashion to complete emptiness by the time Ghidorah got there? McSpanky fucked around with this message at 06:13 on Jun 16, 2019 |
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Jun 16, 2019 06:08
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McSpanky posted:I'm still trying to figure out why people just don't recognize this as trolling. Especially now that he's got a drat rap sheet about it. Nothing I’ve written has been untrue or inaccurate. If I have written anything untrue or inaccurate, it would be trivially easy to demonstrate it. For example, it should be trivially easy to prove that the dialogue about Princess Selina coming from between “the two worlds” doesn’t exist. There is no conspiracy against you.
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Jun 16, 2019 07:34
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Posting differently from me is trolling!!! Mods!!!
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Jun 16, 2019 07:37
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Mantis42 posted:Posting differently from me is trolling!!! Mods!!! It’s especially odd because pretty much everyone agrees that “the human plot” is poo poo. All I’ve done is point out that there aren’t two separate plots in these films. It’s the entire storyline that’s bad.
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Jun 16, 2019 07:44
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Because, in a straightforward way, you don’t actually enjoy the movie. You didn’t follow the story (and I don’t blame you), so was it worth the time? Non-movie talk for just a bit. This is maybe a little weird for me to point out in a Godzilla movie thread of all places with a poster I'm not sure if I've ever had more than like three interactions with, but the above quote strikes me as a bit culty. Like, reading it drags up memories of poo poo I've gone through in a way that makes me physically react in discomfort. Oversimplified scare quotes coming from an imperfect mind attempting to get his point across incoming: "Your opinion is the opposite. We're actually in agreement, and I can't blame you for agreeing with me." Reads as pretty darn indoc. Granted, we're on the forum with the racist hot dog gofundme epic and the thread where a guy ripped off his own dying arm to escape the hospital to score more heroin or something, so it's not like we're all the most rational actors, here. Also, you certainly know what you're doing when it comes to words, but I'm pretty sure you're not actually a cultist. You're super observant about film and make generally salient points (sometimes exaggerated for entertainment purposes, of course), but we've all got some blind spots. I'm not really pointing this out for you as much as I am for a hypothetical someone who reads a piece of text like the one I quoted and feels a bit icky. It's okay, hypothetical someone, I saw that too. Anyway, mods, can I get a sixer or something? This ain't really monster movie talk and I shouldn't engage.
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Jun 16, 2019 12:51
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teagone posted:My older brother is actually a Gamera fan, and I think he has a blu-ray box set. Next time I see him, I'll ask to borrow to it. Saw my brother this weekend and got his Gamera box set. I shall be watching the 90s trilogy sometime this week 
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Jun 16, 2019 13:50
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Because, in a straightforward way, you don’t actually enjoy the movie. You didn’t follow the story (and I don’t blame you), so was it worth the time? No, actually, I spend a lot of time thinking about what I do and don't like, and why I do or don't like it, and I pay close attention to things when I watch them. I did enjoy all of those things. I enjoyed them because there was enough information presented and I have enough experience with estranged parents and years of unresponded-to emails and growing distrust and concern for the present parent that I could imagine and fill in the blanks on what wasn't immediately shown. I didn't have to be shown every moment of what happened because the few points that were shown provided enough context for me to appreciate his motivations. I don't need subtextual connections between technically unrelated aspects of the film, because what was presented was enough for me and my ability to fill in the blanks and understand how other normal humans might handle these situations did the rest. And woooo boy I really don't need some random dude on a forum I've never met telling me what I actually do or don't feel and I'm glad I'm not the only one super weirded out by that.
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Jun 16, 2019 14:02
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Because, in a straightforward way, you don’t actually enjoy the movie. You didn’t follow the story (and I don’t blame you), so was it worth the time? I think that's a strange way to start your argument and an exceptionally unfair conclusion to reach from SquidTentacle's post, but I will say that it is applicable to my experience watching the movie. I wish more time and care had been spent on fleshing out the human characters and making their experiences, if not relatable, at least interesting and engaging. White Dad did come off to me like a magically empowered white protagonist in the movie (He knows more than those egg-head scientists! He's got the real scoop on Kaiju/Titan behavior from his actual job! He's not afraid to speak his mind!), and it was frankly exhausting. Having this different presentation and perception of him as a man trying to redeem himself rather than somebody who knows he's got it all right definitely would have been a lot more enjoyable, at least, to me. McSpanky posted:I loved this film for its highs but it really annoyed me when it took Hollywood Action Script shortcuts like this. I mean, we all saw what happened during Katrina and this film's own flashback to San Francisco, are you telling me Boston was evacuated in a calm and orderly fashion to complete emptiness by the time Ghidorah got there? Absolutely this! I want to see a world changed and transformed by the Kaiju/Titans. What we got felt like the standard Marvel fare of having fights in magically abandoned cities (Rodan's appearance serving as a notable and appreciated exception), but extended to an entire world. Can you imagine the political upheaval that Godzilla's existence alone might cause (especially if he were tied to climate change in some notable way), let alone over a dozen more creatures like him on an International scale? A national scale? Heck, locally in flyover country in the United States? The world in King of the Monsters just felt kind of lifeless.
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Jun 16, 2019 14:42
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Nothing I’ve written has been untrue or inaccurate. This happens all the drat time. Just because you refuse to acknowledge it doesn't mean it never happens.
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Jun 16, 2019 15:12
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Dammerung posted:I think that's a strange way to start your argument and an exceptionally unfair conclusion to reach from SquidTentacle's post, but I will say that it is applicable to my experience watching the movie. yes but he wasn't talking to you Preaching at you, whatever you want to call it. Don't give SMG more credit than he deserves. I've been very clear from the start what my opinions on the movie are, but I also know that SMG spouts bullshit as a religion and poo poo like that is inexcusable. I'd encourage you don't engage with that nonsense and make your own points clear. Which you did very well. The scope of the movie when it stepped beyond the realm of the monsters was very flawed and cut extremely shallow. I wish we could have seen more about how Godzilla changed things, the knowledge of Godzilla, but that's not the kind of movie they wanted to tell. Hopefully Kong will be better in that regard
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Jun 16, 2019 16:47
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McSpanky posted:I loved this film for its highs but it really annoyed me when it took Hollywood Action Script shortcuts like this. I mean, we all saw what happened during Katrina and this film's own flashback to San Francisco, are you telling me Boston was evacuated in a calm and orderly fashion to complete emptiness by the time Ghidorah got there? If they'd tossed the marine wormhole poo poo and given the kaiju a couple of weeks to get there, it would have been plausible.
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Jun 16, 2019 17:13
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I definitely wish that there were a little more time spent on how the world is adapting to the discovery of kaiju, but I also have two other feelings on that: a) I don't know that I necessarily would've wanted them to take time away from other aspects of the movie that are already presented, and b) based on the credit sequence and the fact that most of the kaiju we see were sleeping or so inactive as to be relegated to cryptid status (like Mokele-Mbembe) until this point, I think Godzilla vs. Kong will end up being the movie that really leans into the post-kaiju world more. Those credits REALLY leaned into the idea that kaiju are becoming part of everyday life now that they're awake and being kept in line by Godzilla. New kaiju-based fuel sources, kaiju Twitter profiles, playing off the potential stirrings of Kong and Godzilla like a wrestling promo; they're really integrating into society now, so much like how the last movie's credits played into the idea of new monsters being discovered and signs of ancient worship of kaiju and KotM made that its main focal point, I think it's reasonable to guess KvG will follow suit. Really I just want some shots of kids with Ground Sloth Mammoth Kaiju plushies so there's an excuse for those to exist in real life, though.
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Jun 16, 2019 17:28
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Squidtentacle posted:Those credits REALLY leaned into the idea that kaiju are becoming part of everyday life now that they're awake and being kept in line by Godzilla. New kaiju-based fuel sources, kaiju Twitter profiles, playing off the potential stirrings of Kong and Godzilla like a wrestling promo; they're really integrating into society now, so much like how the last movie's credits played into the idea of new monsters being discovered and signs of ancient worship of kaiju and KotM made that its main focal point, I think it's reasonable to guess KvG will follow suit. I wonder what kind of impact kaiju walking around would have on religion. Current religions are cool and all, but Mothraism can boast that their goddess : 1) Is around, but like for real, on TV and in person. 2) Can dunk on other gods if needed. 3) Is pals with Godzilla, the apparent King of Monsters. 4) Isn't immediately lethal to be near. (A big plus!) I'd assume Godzilla would end up with his own cult, as would Rodan, Gidorah and the others (most probably already have them). I'd also like a Ground Sloth Mammoth Kaiju plushie.
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Jun 16, 2019 17:39
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OB_Juan posted:I wonder what kind of impact kaiju walking around would have on religion. I forget if this was posted already but: https://twitter.com/dinerforwolves/status/1135969024909725698
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Jun 16, 2019 17:47
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Pacific Rim remains the best western Kaiju movie. The credits sequence in Kotm is great for seeing ways in which the world changed. Pacific Rim covers all that in the first three minutes and then continues to show how Kaiju have affected the world for the rest of the runtime. You have toxic spillovers from their blood, you have doomsday cults, massive building projects, black market Kaiju parts trading, and giant combat robots.
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Jun 16, 2019 18:09
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Squidtentacle posted:I forget if this was posted already but: That's badass! Look what I found: 
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Jun 16, 2019 18:11
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