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brugroffil posted:Incorrect again. The tone was very much it was an idiot impossible scenario that wouldn't even make sense for foreign agents (or domestic ones too!) to do. What was happening was a bunch of tankies trying to pin the power outages on CIA by suggesting that there was credence to Maduros outlandish claims. Kindest Forums User posted:This is so loving stupid considering I started this discussion suggesting that America could be using corruption as a tool to influence and destabilize. Exactly. You are trying to shift focus away from the horrific policies of PSUV and put blame on the US because USA BAD. By doing so you take agency away from the people of Venezuela, in classic colonialist Noble Savage thinking.
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Jun 16, 2019 18:14
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Noshtane posted:What was happening was a bunch of tankies trying to pin the power outages on CIA by suggesting that there was credence to Maduros outlandish claims. To be honest, there was not enough information on the dilapidated conditions at the time that the cascading power outages occurred. It was very nice that this information was suddenly made public so that we know this series coincidence lays squarely on the shoulders of President Maduro.
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Jun 16, 2019 18:18
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Fiend posted:To be honest, there was not enough information on the dilapidated conditions at the time that the cascading power outages occurred. It was very nice that this information was suddenly made public so that we know this series coincidence lays squarely on the shoulders of President Maduro. There has always been enough information, there's been reports about mismanagement this entire time, there's articles from 2012 talking about this. I've known during my last 10 years of living in that country that there were problems with power generation and power distribution, I remember Chavez talking about this and promoting the Tocoma dam, which was supposed to become operational in 2012. You found out recently. fnox fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Jun 16, 2019 |
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Jun 16, 2019 18:20
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punk rebel ecks posted:But fascist? That's a huge reach. yeah, they're not particularly big on the "restore national pride" part of the program, they're still attached more to their nations of origin. HUGE fans of the "butcher any peasants suspected of being uppity" part, though. you may recall, there was a digression earlier in the thread where we were informed a black woman showing insufficient deference to Elliot Abrams had guaranteed Trump's reelection and Venezuela's invasion both, because the people in question would react so poorly to it.
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Jun 16, 2019 18:22
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fnox posted:You found out recently. Yes. As early as March 2019 Venezuelan blackouts, which coincidentally occurred just before the reports of the state of the electrical grid.
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Jun 16, 2019 18:28
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fnox posted:
This is not complicated. The CIA knows that Andrade is corrupt. But instead of arresting him or exposing him immediately, they foster his corruption by allowing him to embezzle money into the United States. You know how hard it is to buy property in the United States when you're a foreign national, especially of a nationality that's considered your enemy, especially when you're a high ranking politician? So what did America do here? Instead of stopping corruption in Venezuela, the United States created the conditions to allow it to grow. The PSUV is absolutely responsible for THEIR corruption. No doubt. But you would have to be a lunatic to think that America is not involved whatsoever. It honestly baffles me to suggest otherwise. I just don't get the incessant need to defend America's actions so much. Like, why? Can we not be critical of both the Maduro government and American's involvement. It's just weird, and makes you seem like a shill.
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Jun 16, 2019 18:31
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punk rebel ecks posted:But fascist? That's a huge reach. I mean, yea not every single Cuban expat is a literal fascist but ask a good bit of them who are voting red to stop 'communism spreading to America' what they think of Batista.
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Jun 16, 2019 18:32
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Fiend posted:Yes. As early as March 2019 Venezuelan blackouts, which coincidentally occurred just before the reports of the state of the electrical grid. dude there's been concerns about the state of the power system and the Guri Dam in particular for loving years.
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Jun 16, 2019 18:36
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Noshtane posted:What was happening was a bunch of tankies trying to pin the power outages on CIA by suggesting that there was credence to Maduros outlandish claims. Dude. You are so stupid. Why is it so hard for you to imagine the United States of America opportunistically amplifying the consequences of Maduro's bad policy, and encouraging corruption within his government. Can you please explain to me why the wouldn't participate in destabilizing Venezuela, when they have a history of doing so, even in Venezuela itself. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 16, 2019 18:38
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Fiend posted:Yes. As early as March 2019 Venezuelan blackouts, which coincidentally occurred just before the reports of the state of the electrical grid. Ok congratulations on discovering how this crisis didn't start this year? Guess what also happened in March/April of the previous 5 years. Do you know why this happens? It's very simple, you see, I did some research on this in the 7th grade as part of an assignment. Venezuela, being a tropical country, has a dry season and a wet season. During the dry season, hydroelectric power output, such as what comes from the Guri Dam, drops. Thus, there is a perennial dip in power generation in our power grid. Until that time, Venezuela covered those deficiencies in output using fossil fuel plants, which is kind of a bad idea since the Guri dam was built with the explicit purpose of removing domestic demand for the stuff we export, but whatever. Now, population in Venezuela has been growing steadily since the 80s. The Guri dam was built in the 60s, and was meant to be supplemented sometime in the future once demand grew. What do you think happens, when a system built for a population of 10 million, has to supply a population of 32 million, while also being unable to operate at full capacity due to lack of maintenance? Kindest Forums User posted:This is not complicated. Venezuela is not considered an enemy nation. I have family who emigrated to America, they own property, they didn't have a green card then. Matter of fact they were illegal for a bit, it didn't really matter. loving, I have a bank account in America as a foreign national, wasn't hard at all to get Why is it America's job to stop corruption in Venezuela dude this makes no sense, they didn't create any conditions for it to grow other than A) Having banks you can open an account in as a foreign national, and B) Having cool poo poo to spend stolen money on. You're simultaneously bashing America for meddling in Venezuela's affairs and bashing America for not meddling in Venezuela's affairs. It's insane. fnox fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Jun 16, 2019 |
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Jun 16, 2019 18:41
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Fiend posted:Yes. As early as March 2019 Venezuelan blackouts, which coincidentally occurred just before the reports of the state of the electrical grid. Well, that settles it. Venezuela had no blackouts prior to March of this year because Fiend didn't know there was electricity in Venezuela until then. Extrapolating from this, Venezuela itself didn't exist prior to Fiend first hearing of it either. Fiend, your ignorance of the state of Venezuela prior to this year is not proof of anything except the fact you don't know what you're talking about.
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Jun 16, 2019 18:42
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Someone please explain to me what happened between the years of 2010-2019 that caused American's foreign policy to do a complete about face, and decided to sit Venezuela out. Did all the boys in Arlington have a big ol meeting and come to a nice consensus: "hey, you know, I think we're good in Latin America. Those Venezuelans, lets give em a break. I think we've done enough to these people. Let's respect their sovereignty. Applebee's Friday?? Allright!"
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Jun 16, 2019 18:46
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Kindest Forums User posted:Dude. You are so stupid. Why is it so hard for you to imagine the United States of America opportunistically amplifying the consequences of Maduro's bad policy, and encouraging corruption within his government. Can you please explain to me why the wouldn't participate in destabilizing Venezuela, when they have a history of doing so, even in Venezuela itself. I'm trying to grasp why you are so incessant on injecting USA BAD into EVERY facet of the Venezuelan situation, like the US is a single minded organism with the sole purpose of loving up Venezuela. Instead of considering that the endemic corruption Venezuela is a result of abhorrent PSUV policies and Maduro hollowing out the justice system, like how the Venezuelan goons unanimously report, you like an idiot insist on adding USA BAD without a shred of evidence to back you claims.
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Jun 16, 2019 18:48
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sexpig by night posted:I mean, yea not every single Cuban expat is a literal fascist but ask a good bit of them who are voting red to stop 'communism spreading to America' what they think of Batista. I can imagine after having your country's economy killed and progress stagnated for over half a century will color many people's opinions.
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Jun 16, 2019 18:51
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Noshtane posted:I'm trying to grasp why you are so incessant on injecting USA BAD into EVERY facet of the Venezuelan situation, like the US is a single minded organism with the sole purpose of loving up Venezuela. His evidence is US foreign policy during and since the cold war. America fucks with countries. It fucks with it's allies, it fucks with its enemies. It has one simple objective and that is optimization of markets. That means easy access to the resources of other nations and the best way to ensure that is privatization of everything. I'm not going to provide you with evidence of this because it's common knowledge. I wouldn't need to back this up in a report why the gently caress would I back it up for the likes of you?
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Jun 16, 2019 18:53
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fnox posted:Venezuela is not considered an enemy nation. uhhhhhhh. I hate to break this to you bud, fnox posted:I have family who emigrated to America, they own property, they didn't have a green card then. Matter of fact they were illegal for a bit, it didn't really matter. loving, I have a bank account in America as a foreign national, wasn't hard at all to get fnox posted:Why is it America's job to stop corruption in Venezuela dude this makes no sense, they didn't create any conditions for it to grow other than A) Having banks you can open an account in as a foreign national, and B) Having cool poo poo to spend stolen money on. You're simultaneously bashing America for meddling in Venezuela's affairs and bashing America for not meddling in Venezuela's affairs. It's insane.
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Jun 16, 2019 19:00
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Noshtane posted:I'm trying to grasp why you are so incessant on injecting USA BAD into EVERY facet of the Venezuelan situation, like the US is a single minded organism with the sole purpose of loving up Venezuela. Why can't it be both?
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Jun 16, 2019 19:02
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Regarde Aduck posted:His evidence is US foreign policy during and since the cold war. America fucks with countries. It fucks with it's allies, it fucks with its enemies. It has one simple objective and that is optimization of markets. That means easy access to the resources of other nations and the best way to ensure that is privatization of everything. I'm not going to provide you with evidence of this because it's common knowledge. I wouldn't need to back this up in a report why the gently caress would I back it up for the likes of you? Yup. To quote a famous pro-capitalism interventionist, "past is prologue." Per the Harvard Review of Latin America: quote:In the slightly less than a hundred years from 1898 to 1994, the U.S. government has intervened successfully to change governments in Latin America a total of at least 41 times. That amounts to once every 28 months for an entire century (see table). As the piece notes, this already-high number of interventions doesn't include poo poo like the failed 2002 coup, or, indeed, Guaido's recent failed coup, even though there was clearly at least some level of U.S. support in both cases.
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Jun 16, 2019 19:05
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fnox posted:Why is it America's job to stop corruption in Venezuela dude this makes no sense, they didn't create any conditions for it to grow other than A) Having banks you can open an account in as a foreign national, and B) Having cool poo poo to spend stolen money on. You're simultaneously bashing America for meddling in Venezuela's affairs and bashing America for not meddling in Venezuela's affairs. It's insane. Also, this is kind of funny. You don't think it's America's job to stop Venezuelan corruption when they have every right and opportunity to do so (it's on their soil). But you support the American interventionist line of Guaido and company(or least you did, I haven't kept up). Just think about that for a second.....
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Jun 16, 2019 19:08
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punk rebel ecks posted:I can imagine after having your country's economy killed and progress stagnated for over half a century will color many people's opinions. ....is this actual plantation owner apologia???
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Jun 16, 2019 19:09
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Regarde Aduck posted:His evidence is US foreign policy during and since the cold war. America fucks with countries. It fucks with it's allies, it fucks with its enemies. It has one simple objective and that is optimization of markets. That means easy access to the resources of other nations and the best way to ensure that is privatization of everything. I'm not going to provide you with evidence of this because it's common knowledge. I wouldn't need to back this up in a report why the gently caress would I back it up for the likes of you? No one is going to deny that America has a long and storied tradition of loving around with other countries, dating back to the Revolution and even before then. The problem is believing that the United States is at the root of every problem, without evidence, when there are far more likely explanations. That doesn't mean we have to discount US involvement entirely, but it does mean that insisting that the US is the root cause of every issue is a good way to look like an rear end. Take the power outages a few months ago (and the long history of grid issues before that). Was it possible the US was involved? Sure, if the CIA wanted to bring down the Guri Dam they could probably find a way to do so. But was it likely? Not really, considering the aforementioned long history of grid issues, the documented lack of infrastructure expansion, maintenance, and repair, and actual reports on the ground that the outage was caused by overgrown vegetation catching fire against live power lines at the dam, which led to a cascading effect that brought down the entire system. This thread is for talking about the issues that Venezuela faces, there are a lot of them, and some of them certainly involve or are even the fault of the United States. By focusing on the US as the cause of all of Venezuela's faults, however, it makes it much, much harder to discuss the endemic corruption, degradation of democracy, gradual collapse of the state, and how these issues effect the millions of Venezuelans both in the country and who have already fled, without getting into worthless slapfights that take up pages and pages, drown out real news stories from Venezuela, and resolve absolutely nothing. e: Also I'm gonna try to attach at least one Venezuelan news story to each post so I'm at least contributing to something other than the never-ceasing slapfight: https://twitter.com/ReutersVzla/status/1140311919687065601 Acebuckeye13 fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Jun 16, 2019 |
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Jun 16, 2019 19:11
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Kindest Forums User posted:This is not complicated. Are you for individual sanctions against corrupt officials? Just want to clarify because a few pages ago someone was condemning the individual sanctions as American imperialism because it made the investment climate into Venezuela worse
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Jun 16, 2019 19:11
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Majorian posted:Yup. To quote a famous pro-capitalism interventionist, "past is prologue." Per the Harvard Review of Latin America: Pretty loving weird that they're actually pretending like America wasn't intimately involved in organising the Chilean coup and instead create a fanciful scenario of the US just not supporting Allende enough.
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Jun 16, 2019 19:12
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Pretty loving weird that they're actually pretending like America wasn't intimately involved in organising the Chilean coup and instead create a fanciful scenario of the US just not supporting Allende enough. Well, it is Harvard, the fine institution that employs Ricardo Hausmann.
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Jun 16, 2019 19:14
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Somaen posted:Are you for individual sanctions against corrupt officials? Just want to clarify because a few pages ago someone was condemning the individual sanctions as American imperialism because it made the investment climate into Venezuela worse If they're in good faith, yeah. But that's impossible when they're done by an imperialist nation. Or at least impossible to determine. In the case of Andrade, they didn't even need to impose sanctions. Dude was straight up embezzling money into the United States (on odd choice, for sure). They could have put a stop to the corruption back in 2013. But for whatever reason they waited until the end of 2017, when the Venezuela's economy is in the shitter, and the conditions are perfect for a coup!
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Jun 16, 2019 19:21
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If the US is culpable for not sanctioning corrupt PSUV officials earlier, how are the PSUV somehow not culpable of appointing them in the first place and enabling their corruption at the expense of the people? Doesn't the fact that these people were and are allowed to remain in positions of power in the Venezuelan government for more than a decade tell you anything about the true intentions and priorities of the Venezuelan ruling class?
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Jun 16, 2019 19:41
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Good thing I never said that the psuv is not culpable. In fact, the opposite. I said the Americans are worsening existing corruption...weird. It's almost as if more people are responsible for the conditions in venzuala then we think!
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Jun 16, 2019 19:49
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If so, I don't really get what you're arguing here. Is it literally just "US bad and PSUV also bad"? If so, that doesn't really advance the conversation much, since that's already the non-tankie consensus ITT.
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Jun 16, 2019 19:55
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I know by now the discussions about the recent venezuelan power troubles are stuck well in the depths of this thread, but much like with Venezuela's hyperinflation and the crisis imposed by the price fixing programs, the problems in many parts of Venezuela's electrical grid remained inconsistent with sabotage and were absolutely inconsistent with the specific conspiracies that Maduro claimed as official account of the crisis at the time. The power failures were the kind which come about from continued institutional neglect and mismanagement. Party fixtures throughout Venezuela were appointed to spoils posts all throughout Corpoelec and gradually inflicted on it the exact same things that occurred rampantly in PVDSA. Like petro engineers, electrical engineers are among the first to fly the coop when rampant mismanagement and labor shortage makes their work potentially lethally dangerous, especially when their paychecks stopped coming reliably. A serious quantity of technicians and electricians are no longer involved or invested in Corpoelec maintenance compared even a few years ago, a tremendous quantity of the substantially skilled operators are long gone from the state's power monopoly, and places like Guri have only a handful of senior level staff with any ability to attempt sync turbine restarts that are in little condition to endure stressful restarts. Each time there's an attempt, poorly maintained substations may literally explode, which is exactly what happened last time. It would have been one thing if the official government account of the situation was remotely plausible, but what ended up happening is that Venezuelan state government offered accusations of sabotage dressed up to fit language that Maduro had used directly in public account which was essentially impossible, if not entirely.
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Jun 16, 2019 19:55
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:If so, I don't really get what you're arguing here. Is it literally just "US bad and PSUV also bad"? If so, that doesn't really advance the conversation much, since that's already the non-tankie consensus ITT. No many posters here think that the problems in Venezuela can be entirely attributed to maduros government. But it is more than likely that the USA is playing a large role in destabilizing the country and fostering corruption within the party. Had the united states given Venezuela the sovereignty it deserves, the country would probably be far better off.
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Jun 16, 2019 20:10
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fnox posted:There has always been enough information, there's been reports about mismanagement this entire time, there's articles from 2012 talking about this. I've known during my last 10 years of living in that country that there were problems with power generation and power distribution, I remember Chavez talking about this and promoting the Tocoma dam, which was supposed to become operational in 2012. You found out recently. This is true yeah.
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Jun 16, 2019 20:11
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Squalid posted:I disagree, but regardless I also provided an example where there was definitely no military action. Anyway, the contras had just had their funding slashed and were already in the process of disbanding when Ortega lost the 1990 election. If you want to point to an alternative explanation than the sanctions for this result you'd do better to bring up the gigantic sum of US funding spent on Chamorro's campaign, rather than the war that was already in the process of ending. The US government had conducted a wide variety of activities aimed at destroying the country, from backing the contras to imposing economic sanctions. Then they grandly announced that they would end the sanctions if the Sandinista government was voted out. There are also reports from the Toronto Star's reporters that dozens of people being killed by Contras during the election in voter intimidation incidents. I really don't know why you're comfortable dismissing the potential impact of this violence or why you think a more likely explanation was campaign spending. I imagine that for a lot of voters it was well understood that the American threat to continue sanctions was also implicitly a threat to continue sponsoring the contras. You can say with the benefit of hindsight that they were already in the process of disbanding but that was probably much less apparent to voters at the time, most of whom probably lacked any reliable information on the conflict. I think the message that probably cut very clearly through all the noise was the US government saying it would stop torturing the country if they just got rid of the Sandinistas. I don't know whether that was indeed the decisive factor in the election but it at least seems like an equally plausible explanation to the argument that it all just came down to economic sanctions plus campaign spending.
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Jun 16, 2019 21:06
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punk rebel ecks posted:I can imagine after having your country's economy killed and progress stagnated for over half a century will color many people's opinions. This is disgusting, do the poor not count as people to you? The plantation owners could have prevented ever getting overthrown by treating their workers with dignity, it's their own abuse that created the conditions for a revolt in the first place.
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Jun 16, 2019 22:13
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Zidrooner posted:This is disgusting, do the poor not count as people to you? The plantation owners could have prevented ever getting overthrown by treating their workers with dignity, it's their own abuse that created the conditions for a revolt in the first place. I think that was referring to the steady, ongoing trickle of Cuban refugees, not the first wave. Kind of doubt many balseros were plantation owners.
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Jun 16, 2019 22:38
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Darth Walrus posted:I think that was referring to the steady, ongoing trickle of Cuban refugees, not the first wave. Kind of doubt many balseros were plantation owners. Hard to tell with punk; he has a troublesome tendency to universalize all the worst parts of "left-wing authoritarians" to apply equally across their entire existence. I think it's just due to ignorance rather than malice though, or a desire to view the world in easy to understand terms.
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Jun 16, 2019 22:47
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Zidrooner posted:This is disgusting, do the poor not count as people to you? The plantation owners could have prevented ever getting overthrown by treating their workers with dignity, it's their own abuse that created the conditions for a revolt in the first place. This entire conversation started with a reference to the Cuban refugees who have been crossing the straits to Florida for decades in improvised boats, not the rich shitheads who bailed out alongside Batista in 1959. The former are comparable to current Venezuelan refugees, the latter are ironically enough more like Maduro and his cronies in that they got riches and power by oppressing their fellow citizens.
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Jun 16, 2019 22:47
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:This entire conversation started with a reference to the Cuban refugees who have been crossing the straits to Florida for decades in improvised boats, not the rich shitheads who bailed out alongside Batista in 1959. The former are comparable to current Venezuelan refugees, the latter are ironically enough more like Maduro and his cronies. Anyone who says that progress in Cuba has "stagnated" since the Revolution is pretty obviously discounting any improvement in the lives of the poor: WHO posted:Cuban health authorities give large credit for the country’s impressive health indicators to the preventive, primary-care emphasis pursued for the last four decades. These indicators – which are close or equal to those in developed countries – speak for themselves. For example, in 2004, there were seven deaths for every 1000 children aged less than five years – a decrease from 46 such deaths 40 years earlier, according to WHO. Meanwhile Cubans have one of the world’s highest life expectancies of 77 years. Wikipedia, Cuban Literacy Campaign posted:The Cuban Literacy Campaign (Spanish: Campaña Nacional de Alfabetización en Cuba) was a year-long effort to abolish illiteracy in Cuba after the Cuban Revolution.[1] It began on January 1 and ended on December 22, 1961, becoming the world's most ambitious and organized literacy campaign.[2][3]
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Jun 16, 2019 23:03
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:This entire conversation started with a reference to the Cuban refugees who have been crossing the straits to Florida for decades in improvised boats, not the rich shitheads who bailed out alongside Batista in 1959. The former are comparable to current Venezuelan refugees, the latter are ironically enough more like Maduro and his cronies in that they got riches and power by oppressing their fellow citizens. While that’s true in a lot of cases, the Venezuelans most in favor of intervention do seem to be predatory capitalists like, well, Ricardo and Joanna Hausmann.
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Jun 16, 2019 23:04
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Helsing posted:Anyone who says that progress in Cuba has "stagnated" since the Revolution is pretty obviously discounting any improvement in the lives of the poor: This actually has a lot to do with Venezuela so I wanted to go over the absurdity on that page: In 1961, Cuba's population was 7,290,000. The page alleges that the literacy rate in 1961 was "between 60% and 76%". This means there were between 4,374,000 and 5,540,400 literate Cubans in 1961. The page then claims that 707,212 new people learned to read during the campaign, which the article later says ended in 1962. Thus, at the end, there were between 5,081,212 and 6,247,612 literate Cubans. This "raised the national literacy rate to 96%." 5,081,212 is 96% of 5,292,930 and 6,247,612 is 96% of 6,507,930. Unfortunately, the Cuban population has never been anywhere near as low as 6,507,930 at any time since 1961 It certainly did not decrease by 782,071 in one year - that would be an over 10% decrease from net death and emigration with no one noticing! And that's using the most generous numbers of the "60 to 76%" range - if we start at the 60% number than Cuba had to lose almost 2 million people out of a starting population of 7.2M to make the figures balance, a death rate comparable to the worst actual genocides or plagues in history. The only source given in the article for the idea that Cuba increased literacy by these obviously fabricated numbers that don't add up is a biography of Che Guevara by Douglas Kellner, a "Marxist cultural critic" who was 18 years old in 1961 and has no background in demography, history, or Cuba. Conclusion by the sane: The article is based on total bullshit. Conclusion by rose emoji people: Algebra is a fascist CIA conspiracy. One of the main connections to Venezuela, besides the fact that Venezuela and Cuba and their apologists have been very intertwined since the rise of Chavez, is that the Venezuelan literacy program used to be an old reliable on the bingo card - Chavez may be destroying civil society, entrenching himself as the president for life, and simultaneously making Venezuela dependent on the oil industry while gutting its competent operation, but at least he's teaching people how to read! Unfortunately for them, even taking PSUV statistics on the increase in literacy since 1998 at face value, we have a country going from 90% to 98% literacy. Basically, the fact that Venezuela has always been a literate society is elided in favor of the hope that left-wing audiences will assume all Latin American countries are backwards and uneducated, and the increase is equivalent to the worldwide rise in literacy over the same time period, which was accomplished in many other countries without installing a starvation-based dictatorship.
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Jun 16, 2019 23:53
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M. Discordia posted:Conclusion by the sane: The article is based on total bullshit. dude you have a good point that the numbers don't add up but to immediately move from that to it's a marxist conspiracy that not only made up the Cuban literacy rate whole-cloth but also damns any literacy program Chavez started says far more about your biases than any facts on the ground.
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Jun 17, 2019 00:05
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