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Mazz posted:I gave a bro dagger mastery with the obsidian blade and it’s amazing fighting barbarians. Chosen weiders are like big ol’ meat shields. Just swapping him around finishing dudes off so rotation is a must. This is absolutely the case in my experience. Through-Armor damage completely fucks the Ancient Dead.
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Jun 17, 2019 16:11
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Finding and training up qualified dudes takes a surprisingly long time when everyone else murders everything.
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So I killed my second ever Champion Knight and he dropped The Revered Shell 400/-33 coat of plates. I lost my starting 2H raider and two other bros but I think it was worth it. The training grounds seems super good? I got +35% xp for two battles on a soon to be shield bro with apprentice and he went from 1 - 3 in two battles.
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Jun 17, 2019 16:32
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Southpaugh posted:So I killed my second ever Champion Knight and he dropped The Revered Shell 400/-33 coat of plates. I lost my starting 2H raider and two other bros but I think it was worth it. Yeah once you have the money always grab some training when you can. I grab the 20%-5 just so it lasts a bit longer between trips but if you have a good citadel location you can do the better ones more often. FWIW There’s a point in the mid game-ish where the quality of your bros starts to be more important than getting them geared up. Aka you want to stop trading good bros for good armor and try to keep those good dudes alive as much as you can. The difference between a guy at 65/20 melee skills vs 90/40 starts to get real obvious once you’re over that initial gear curve. Mazz fucked around with this message at 16:51 on Jun 17, 2019 |
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Jun 17, 2019 16:42
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Apparently you don't get the gear from whatever gets resurrected with the Obsidian dagger, so keep that in mind
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Jun 17, 2019 16:44
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Broken Cog posted:Apparently you don't get the gear from whatever gets resurrected with the Obsidian dagger, so keep that in mind I was actually thinking about that, makes sense since they don’t “die.” My go-to was to give that guy another weapon or a rondel for when I didn’t need the weiders/wanted to sell. Thanks for confirmation though, I hadn’t checked for real. Another psa is you don’t get the gear from other factions kills so during the noble war or if you kite groups together make sure you get the killing blow on guys you want things from, like zwiehanders and knights. Mazz fucked around with this message at 16:50 on Jun 17, 2019 |
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Jun 17, 2019 16:46
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Wizard Styles posted:The more I fight them the more I think Barbarians need a lot of balancing work. So has anyone worked out a consistent strategy for Barbarian Chosen? Do they even have a real weakness?
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Jun 17, 2019 17:42
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:So has anyone worked out a consistent strategy for Barbarian Chosen? Do they even have a real weakness? Nope. My go-to is to try and limit exposure when I’m outnumbered because they have no polearms. Forest maps and tundra bushes are good for this. That or kite orcs or unholds into them. You can see the chokepoints here:  The only other “reliable” strat is to just flat overpower them with superbros. I can take on 20 chosen with my lone wolf group now and get out without any losses, but I’ll probably have to save scum every other battle because one bro decided to get his head caved in by 3 maces. You basically need to have 35+ MDef to reliably dodge them, and even then you can have bad RNG and get half your armor/HP shaved off. Don’t even bring shields if you can avoid it, every 2H they use has shield breaker. Hammers and polehammers are probably the most potent because they drop fast with no armor, and the biggest thing you can do is thin their numbers ASAP. The real scary weapons only get one swing per turn so if you can thin those down you cut a lot of potential. Maces also own too because dazes/stuns reduce the risk a lot. Morale shocking them is also decently reliable, but you need reavers/thralls to mass kill or you won’t get many routs. EDIT: On morale damage, one thing I’m gonna try out is giving my archers fearsome. The 15 threshold isn’t that high for most weapons but with bows you can’t actually trigger that through armor without like a perfect roll. Dropping it to 1 though and now you can pretty constantly. With how many enemies like to flank to your archers, breaking the morale of say an orc warrior is a lot easier than killing him most of the time via arrows. Mazz fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Jun 17, 2019 |
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Jun 17, 2019 17:53
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Mazz posted:Nope. My go-to is to try and limit exposure when I’m outnumbered because they have no polearms. Forest maps and tundra bushes are good for this. That or kite orcs or unholds into them. Yeah, I'm considering having a couple of spear mastery bros in my team just for holding chokepoints but that's such a narrow use I have a hard time justifying them even in a sixteen man team. I've been doing the morale thing (all direwolf attachments Go!) but I don't have the skull yet in this run and Barb morale overall seems better than Orc's. Let me know how the morale damage on archers works. My "standard" non-Overwhelm archer build has a perk slot relatively open, and you don't use archers against undead anyway.
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Jun 17, 2019 19:01
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Yeah, I'm considering having a couple of spear mastery bros in my team just for holding chokepoints but that's such a narrow use I have a hard time justifying them even in a sixteen man team. You can’t really rely on spearwall to accomplish this, you need to funnel the enemy with fixed terrain features so you only see a handful at a time. You put superbros in front who can tank or dodge well, and stack archers/poles behind him. You’re basically just looking to create situations where the incoming damage is as mitigated as possible while your outgoing damage is not. Once you remove the numbers advantage and the morale damage is starting to spread, you can then start pushing in and clearing them out. Most tundra maps have a lot of the bushes to make this work though, and forest maps are also common. In the snow you’re generally best off trying to find some orcs or unhold to bring along until you’re pretty confident you can just facetank a line of chosen. If they have a few armored snow unholds, definitely bring friends. gently caress those things. What’s the skull btw? That DLC helmet? Mazz fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Jun 17, 2019 |
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Jun 17, 2019 19:12
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Oh no the crystal skull. Give it to a bro all nearby enemies take a resolve hit.
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Jun 17, 2019 19:15
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Oh rip never seen that, gotta figure out why not.
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Jun 17, 2019 19:17
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Mazz posted:Oh rip never seen that, gotta figure out why not. https://battlebrothers.fandom.com/wiki/Cursed_Crystal_Skull only shows up on cargo missions. Not that great unless you set up for it or put it on a Dastard anyway.
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Jun 17, 2019 19:23
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Mazz posted:I gave a bro dagger mastery with the obsidian blade and it’s amazing fighting barbarians. Chosen weiders are like big ol’ meat shields. Just swapping him around finishing dudes off so rotation is a must. For chosen I've started testing crossbow masters just to put injuries on them before they hit the main line and it works well. All my crossbow guys are cleaver hybrids so I try to switch to whips and disarm as many mace and hammer guys as I can when they are in attack range. You kinda have to proritze targets by their weapons armor pen so they don't one or two shot your Bros. Also the dev diary that said fatigue was their weakness was bullshit because the hammers and maces are pretty fatigue neutral them and I have never seen a chosen or reaver tire themselves out even without drummers. I'd go so far as saying don't target drummers because you are wasting ap on something that does not impact the fight. Bogarts fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Jun 17, 2019 |
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Jun 17, 2019 19:27
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Yeah I could see how fatigue could be their weakness if they didn’t all mostly use 1-2 fatigue neutral attacks. Like yes they stop adrenaline after a bit but that just means they’re giant assholes with 60% ArPen who go a bit later in the round. I have a bad habit of neglecting my whips because the cleavers do work, gotta remember I have them and to put quick hands on those bros next time. Mazz fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Jun 17, 2019 |
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Jun 17, 2019 19:48
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Fatigue would probably be a weakness if they paid the full fatigue price for their skills, but they don't.
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Jun 17, 2019 22:35
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:So has anyone worked out a consistent strategy for Barbarian Chosen? Do they even have a real weakness?  vyelkin posted:Fatigue would probably be a weakness if they paid the full fatigue price for their skills, but they don't. Chosen have 140 base Fatigue and are Brawny. They also regenerate 20 a turn - most human enemies do that, but it's worth noting. They also have Mastery perks. Adrenaline will tire them out eventually but Barbarian Rotation only costs 5 Fatigue so they can combine Rotation and a single target attack and use 2 less Fatigue than they regenerate. And they can get 10 more back from Drummers. Chosen also have 130 HP and 90 Resolve. Those are the highest values regular human enemies get. Even Knights only have 125 HP and 90 Resolve. Their Resolve will probably break before they die but it isn't guaranteed. The closest thing to an exploitable weakness is a Melee Skill of 75. They can break shields pretty easily but I'm not sure if the ones without axes really do.
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Jun 17, 2019 23:57
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Trying to start up a new Ironman Lone Wolf game and 2 things: 1. Christ is lone wolf an easier start than so many others. You have this anchor in the lone wolf in which you can work around for so much. I just kite dudes around or mace stun with my lovely little bros until the lone wolf is done murdering everyone else. 2. I have been ambushed like 11 times in 12 days. Every time I walk near a forest I'm loving ambushed. It's getting crazy.
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Jun 18, 2019 00:14
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One thing I've used against barbarians is disables, either thru mace stun or whip disarm. I can reliably lock down a King with my maceman and focus on sweeping the rest with disarm. I will admit I play a pretty heavy disarm group, able to field 3-5 whips as needed. It's worth a shot, but I still have troubles so it's no silver bullet
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Jun 18, 2019 04:33
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Wizard Styles posted:Their weakness is you can mod the game. lol this is so dumb. imo one of the things I dislike about this game, which I in general love to pieces, is how other human enemies consistently have stats you could only ever have on the luckiest bro in the world. Like what insane starting stats and stars would it take to get a bro to 140 fatigue, 130 HP, and 90 resolve as well as 75 matk? I imagine they also have other unusually high stats that you didn't mention as well. And then you have to fight like 12 of them in a single fight, because they just spawn with those stats while your bros have the RNG and three stat increases per level determining how good they get. I think it takes away from the idea that your mercenary band are normal humans in a low fantasy world, because you're basically fighting humans built like orcs, and while that might be okay for like one knight or one hedge knight in a group of otherwise relatively normal humans, it's immersion-breaking to have dozens and dozens of barbarians be so superhuman.
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Jun 18, 2019 05:56
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Especially since barbs were supposed to be mid-game to late-game fare but large groups of chosen are by far more dangerous than most things in the game. Also all I've found in my game are orc champions, it sucks. Hurray, another orc shield I'm not going to use.
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Jun 18, 2019 06:32
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Let me tell you about my collection of unique goblin falchions. It's big. e: my worst Champion experience were two Champion Knights in a row that both had unique shields. That 10% hit chance.  vyelkin posted:lol this is so dumb. imo one of the things I dislike about this game, which I in general love to pieces, is how other human enemies consistently have stats you could only ever have on the luckiest bro in the world. Like what insane starting stats and stars would it take to get a bro to 140 fatigue, 130 HP, and 90 resolve as well as 75 matk? I imagine they also have other unusually high stats that you didn't mention as well. And then you have to fight like 12 of them in a single fight, because they just spawn with those stats while your bros have the RNG and three stat increases per level determining how good they get. I think it takes away from the idea that your mercenary band are normal humans in a low fantasy world, because you're basically fighting humans built like orcs, and while that might be okay for like one knight or one hedge knight in a group of otherwise relatively normal humans, it's immersion-breaking to have dozens and dozens of barbarians be so superhuman. There are two things that consistently annoy me looking through the files: First, elite enemies tend to have more than 10 perks. And they have stats that in general would only be achievable with Fortified Mind + Colossus, too. Second, a lot of enemies, humans or otherwise, have high Fatigue and 20 or 25 passive Fatigue recovery. Wizard Styles fucked around with this message at 07:42 on Jun 18, 2019 |
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Jun 18, 2019 07:38
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Wizard Styles posted:It's honestly just Barbarians that are overtuned to that degree. The stats on most enemies are reasonable. Does anyone have a list of all enemies and their stats? Something of a spoiler to know this I suppose, but I am curious and have not learned to open them files because of laziness.
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Jun 18, 2019 12:19
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I don’t mind chosen being strong but we shouldn’t be fighting 17 of them at that level. Honestly though I think barbarians will get nerfed a bit at some point. Armored snow unholds are equally bullshit, they do not need 400 or 500 chest armor along with that regen trait and crippling strikes. They already have like 500 HP as it is. I should not prefer to fight 20 OP chosen vs 3 of those things.
Mazz fucked around with this message at 13:27 on Jun 18, 2019 |
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Jun 18, 2019 13:21
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vyelkin posted:lol this is so dumb. imo one of the things I dislike about this game, which I in general love to pieces, is how other human enemies consistently have stats you could only ever have on the luckiest bro in the world. Like what insane starting stats and stars would it take to get a bro to 140 fatigue, 130 HP, and 90 resolve as well as 75 matk? I imagine they also have other unusually high stats that you didn't mention as well. And then you have to fight like 12 of them in a single fight, because they just spawn with those stats while your bros have the RNG and three stat increases per level determining how good they get. I think it takes away from the idea that your mercenary band are normal humans in a low fantasy world, because you're basically fighting humans built like orcs, and while that might be okay for like one knight or one hedge knight in a group of otherwise relatively normal humans, it's immersion-breaking to have dozens and dozens of barbarians be so superhuman. AI is AI and won't beat a human if everything is "fair". You could nerf the stats on AI units but then you either need to throw even more units at the player, or have a really easy game. People already complain that the AI relies too heavily on numbers so that doesn't seem like a great solution either. And are these stats you're mentioning even shown in-game for AI units? I don't see how you can complain about breaking immersion if you're looking up hidden stats outside of the game.
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Jun 18, 2019 13:33
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TheBeardyCleaver posted:Does anyone have a list of all enemies and their stats? Something of a spoiler to know this I suppose, but I am curious and have not learned to open them files because of laziness. Here you go.
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Jun 18, 2019 14:25
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Immersion breaking or not, the AI should have either increased fatigue or lower cost skills. They should not have both, especially as fatigue is their stated "weakness".
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Jun 18, 2019 14:30
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yeah whatever elsei t's clear that chosen are "over tuned" and need a balance down. Taking away one of their extra perks would seem like a good start.
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Jun 18, 2019 14:32
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Wafflecopper posted:AI is AI and won't beat a human if everything is "fair". You could nerf the stats on AI units but then you either need to throw even more units at the player, or have a really easy game. People already complain that the AI relies too heavily on numbers so that doesn't seem like a great solution either. I've never looked up a stat outside the game, this is just based on my observation that certain enemies can carry more armour than your guys, have more HP, break less easily, and yet still never get tired and always have the initiative to go before anyone in heavy armour. Hearing the numbers in this thread just confirmed what I suspected from having played the game a lot.
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Jun 18, 2019 14:43
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Thanks! Very nice! Though that reddit link is odd, would only open properly on my phone for some reason. I blame chrome. Edit: The table says that barbarian chosen have higher stats than barbarian champions  Can anyone confirm?
TheBeardyCleaver fucked around with this message at 15:09 on Jun 18, 2019 |
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Jun 18, 2019 14:59
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TheBeardyCleaver posted:Thanks! Very nice! Though that reddit link is odd, would only open properly on my phone for some reason. I blame chrome. It looks like that's just a mistake in the nomenclature, they mislabeled Chosen as Champion and King as Chosen
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Jun 18, 2019 15:26
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Not to beat a dead horse but I’m curious what the armored Frost unholds are vs regular. They are the strongest of the 3 normally and the armor difference is also massive. It has to be 400+ because a named polehammer with 200% only takes half off with destroy armor.
Mazz fucked around with this message at 15:40 on Jun 18, 2019 |
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Jun 18, 2019 15:37
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Mazz posted:Not to beat a dead horse but I’m curious what the armored Frost unholds are vs regular. They are the strongest of the 3 normally and the armor difference is also massive. It has to be 400+ because a named polehammer with 200% only takes half off with destroy armor. In the spreadsheet it says the armour is 400/400 on frost unholds and 35/35 on the regular ones. Meanwhile the regular unhold has 500 HP and the frost has 600, so the difference between the two with armour is roughly 535 versus 1000 damage to kill them (and in practice it's more than that because the frost unhold's head armour will aborb 25% of your hits for a while).
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Jun 18, 2019 15:57
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vyelkin posted:In the spreadsheet it says the armour is 400/400 on frost unholds and 35/35 on the regular ones. Meanwhile the regular unhold has 500 HP and the frost has 600, so the difference between the two with armour is roughly 535 versus 1000 damage to kill them (and in practice it's more than that because the frost unhold's head armour will aborb 25% of your hits for a while). That sounds both correct and traumatizing
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Jun 18, 2019 16:38
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HP regeneration is 15% of max HP, too, so Frost Unholds also regenerate more.vyelkin posted:It looks like that's just a mistake in the nomenclature, they mislabeled Chosen as Champion and King as Chosen
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Jun 18, 2019 17:09
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Wizard Styles posted:HP regeneration is 15% of max HP, too, so Frost Unholds also regenerate more. That’s actually probably the worst part; you can’t just slowly work down the unholds because they regen ~75 HP a turn, so you have to devote 3-4 good bros to do meaningful damage, meanwhile they will toss and injure bros with decent regularity. If there are 6+ chosen in the fight along with 2+ frost unholds you are basically guaranteed to have at least one guy end up in an unrecoverable situation, no matter how good their stats are. There is literally no way to plan against that toss tactically other than hope you can reach the beastmasters early. Mazz fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Jun 18, 2019 |
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Jun 18, 2019 17:14
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Mazz posted:That’s actually probably the worst part; you can just slowly work down the unholds because they regen ~75 HP a turn, so you have to devote 3-4 good bros to.do meaningful damage, meanwhile they will toss and injure bros with decent regularity. If there are 6+ chosen in the fight along with 2+ frost unholds you are basically guaranteed to have at least one guy end up in an unrecoverable situation. I think this is where the indomitable / adrenaline / recover cycle comes in. I haven't had a chance to really test it yet because I've been levelling up a new company to try it, but two bros with indomitable, recover, and rotate can tank a frost unhold essentially indefinitely, so one bro with indomitable, recover, and adrenaline should be able to do the same. of course throw chosen into the mix and yeah.
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Jun 18, 2019 17:17
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I think this is where the indomitable / adrenaline / recover cycle comes in. I haven't had a chance to really test it yet because I've been levelling up a new company to try it, but two bros with indomitable, recover, and rotate can tank a frost unhold essentially indefinitely, so one bro with indomitable, recover, and adrenaline should be able to do the same. The problem isn’t really the damage unholds do, it’s the tossing guys out of position and that their AoE has a high chance on injuries. You can do okay against most enemies if you can stay in formation, but once that unhold tosses your tank over his head into the 4 chosen behind him, you basically just pray the RNG works out while you focus down that 1000 HP meat sack in the way, who btw is still regening every turn and injuring/staggering people. The regular unholds aren’t nearly as dangerous simply because archers can whittle down 500 quickly enough, but the frost ones require serious focusing, and that’s not something you can often afford with 20+ other barbarians around. I have beaten those camps before but to get out without losses is comparable in difficulty to like the goblin city, and that’s crazy for mediocre rewards. Mazz fucked around with this message at 17:29 on Jun 18, 2019 |
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Jun 18, 2019 17:21
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Mazz posted:The problem isn’t really the damage unholds do, it’s the tossing guys out of position and that their AoE has a high chance on injuries. Right, indomitable will block both of those also though (both the injuries and the knockback), so you can hold them for forever so long as you don't get exhausted. On paper, anyway. I've beaten groups of four frost unholds with zero injuries by rotating tanks out, theoretically you could do the same with one tank and Adrenaline *but* adding lots of barbarians and chosen etc really complicate things.
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Jun 18, 2019 17:29
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Yeah lots of regular frost unholds is bad but ultimately doable, it’s that frost unhold/chosen combo that leads to lots of frustration because one bad roll can be unrecoverable for a bro. Thankfully for now we can just find some orcs or wild unholds to kite into them, or hope the camp garrison rotates to something less awful. I’ll take 18 chosen and a champ over 10 chosen and 3 armored frost unholds every day. Does indomitable block the throw move or just the AoE/knockback? It’s the throw I hate the most. Mazz fucked around with this message at 17:34 on Jun 18, 2019 |
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Jun 18, 2019 17:31
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Mazz posted:
I have never had an unhold move a bro at all who had Indomitable active. Gotta keep it active though. I really think indomitable is a mandatory pick on all frontliners post-B&E. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 17:56 on Jun 18, 2019 |
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Jun 18, 2019 17:45
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