|
I don't really lament the state of history education when I was in high school because I have to consider the constraints. Our district had been in an austerity budget at least for the entirety of my middle and high school years. If I would lament anything, it would be the computer courses--namely their absolute absence despite teasing about them in the course codes. We had AP European and American History, and then honors courses for economics and politics. They started to get some AP sciences courses my senior year (biology). My own personal lamentation is the piss-poor math education I got in elementary school and how I had no good discipline and basis for stacking algebra on it. They put me in a remedial calculus group my freshman year because of it, but I destroyed that and statistics. I think it was just because everybody was basically starting over with a new model for math, and that gave me a shot to actually have a foundation for once. If there's anything I would have liked to tweak with history, it would have been having something that deep dives into just one topic because I think some very different, important skills for understanding history come out from depth instead of breadth. Us engineer folks piss on the social "sciences" (hurrrrr) as not being skilled in some particular way. That's of course complete bullshit. These same people will tell you there are plenty of skills involved in understanding context over time, which is, you know, loving history. But yeah, it seems stupid when there isn't much time to do more than the Particle Man theory of history ("SomethingMan, SomethingMan, SomethingMan meets Particle Man. They had a fight, SomethingMan wins."). But even if you had something like this, your average American school teacher has to juggle all that with a regular school population that is juggling keeping the drat kids still long enough and everything else. And if you went into even just half a year on some obscure topic, most of the people are just going to be all like, "when will I ever use this?" despite the topic be mostly irrelevant.
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2019 05:05
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 10:49 |
|
|
I think I made this comment in the last thread, but I learned more about history from Iron Maiden and Rush songs than I did from school probably up to 8th grade. Also old war movies, because I remember my elementary school mind being pretty blown by Audie Murphy doing all his insanity and then playing himself in To Hell and Back. And to further add on to what was mentioned before, yeah, the 30 Years War is definitely never touched on or even mentioned in American schools before college-level speciality courses.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2019 05:16
|
|
|
Don Gato posted:This is depressingly common outside the US too. I had a better grasp of the Mexican Revolution in high school than my cousin's who literally had that as their curriculum. And they weren't in the local public schools, this includes my cousin's in the prestigious German School as well. Granted they were all quadrilingual by the time they graduated high school while I struggled with two but knowing the politics and history of the Revolution are also important. Do you of any good primers on the revolution or just Mexican history in general? It disturbs me when I think about how little I know about our only interesting neighbor.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2019 07:08
|
|
|
Grand Prize Winner posted:Do you of any good primers on the revolution or just Mexican history in general? It disturbs me when I think about how little I know about our only interesting neighbor.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2019 07:11
|
|
|
I'm not really a podcast guy. Are there any transcriptions available?
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2019 07:12
|
|
|
Vincent Van Goatse posted:Don't piss on the Bear Flag, son. virgin california bear flag vs chad zheleznogorsk bear flag
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2019 07:20
|
|
|
i have been seen https://twitter.com/njtmulder/status/1138569360811929605
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2019 08:03
|
|
|
Did you guys know Africa was a theater of the Thirty Years War? I didn't. https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2019/06/27/medieval-africa-lost-kingdoms/
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2019 08:30
|
|
|
Grand Prize Winner posted:Do you of any good primers on the revolution or just Mexican history in general? It disturbs me when I think about how little I know about our only interesting neighbor. Most of the books I'd recommend are in Spanish and I don't think they have English translations, but I liked Villa and Zapata: A History of the Mexican Revolution as an intro to two of the biggest figures in the revolution (also coincidentally my favorite figures, get hosed Carranza). Another amazing primary source is Insurgent Mexico by John Reed, it's a first hand account of a man who was with Pancho Villa in 1913. The same author is much more famous for his book Ten Days that Shook the World, so if you like that book I recommend you read it. La Revolución: Mexico's Revolution as Memory, Myth, and History is an interesting book about how the state, from 1910 on, tried to forge a coherent narrative from the contradictory and hilariously complicated revolutionary history and also looks into how the Revolution is remembered and how it still influences modern Mexico. Unfortunately I don't have any good suggestions for a general overview of Mexican history, the problem is it's very complicated what with the 19th century consisting of an 11 year war of Independence, two empires, the French invaded at least twice, war with the US, native American revolt, multiple civil wars between liberals and conservatives, Santa Ana was president 12 times over 22 years and declared himself a dictator at least three times, a final civil war over the idea of No Reelection and then a dictatorship that lasted until 1911. And that doesn't cover the hundreds of years of Spanish rule or the entire mess that was la guerra sucia in the 60s and 70s. I had a few posts on the war of Independence back in the first iteration of this thread, but then I had brainworks and enlisted so I barely have free time for effort posts anymore since it took a lot of research to disentangle all the factions and how the Napoleonic wars influenced everything. Edit: I literally just found this out and figured you'd all find this interesting as well. At the risk of doxxing myself, my grandparents live in colonia San Jerónimo Lídice, México City, and for years I had no idea why the third name in the (district? Burroughs? Not sure how you'd translate colonia) was a random foreign word. Turns out that it's named after a village named Lidice, Czechoslovakia, home of the famous Lidice Massacre, when the Nazis wiped it off the face of the Earth as revenge for the assassination of Reinhard Heydrich. The stated goal of the massacre was to wipe the name Lídice from the historical record, so no one would ever know it existed. The Mexican government added the name Lídice to the colonia to make sure some memory of the village would live on no matter what Hitler's intentions were. Also turns out there's still an annual commemoration at the San Jerónimo church in the colonia, I just didn't know because I normally avoid church services like the plague due to personal beliefs. Don Gato fucked around with this message at 09:18 on Jun 20, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2019 08:54
|
|
|
that's beautiful, don gato i came for the women in combat, i stayed to remind everyone that black powder will never die https://twitter.com/mountainherder/status/1141401245439143936
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2019 09:51
|
|
|
HEY GUNS posted:that's beautiful, don gato Holy poo poo, the absolute insanity of fielding black powder as guerillas. I'm imagining just, like one volley and then hauling rear end before anyone realizes what happened.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2019 11:40
|
|
|
Someone interest in early cold war stuff will probably find this publicly available thing interesting. I know I did. Tynkkynen & Jouko. 2007. Towards east or west?: Defence planning in Finland 1944-1966. National Defence University, Helsinki. quote:1. Introduction ETA: quote:The confidential archives of the divisional headquarters were for the most part available to us, although it is probable that some material may not yet have been lodged with the Military Archives or may have been destroyed in connection with reductions in these archives. The reason for the latter situation lies in the common practice of recording the most confidential papers of all as rough drafts in various correspondence ledgers, so that officially they did not exist as recorded documents at all. It was then a relatively straightforward matter to destroy them. Thus it is highly likely that a large number of the draft documents that contained ideas put forward by planners and decision-makers in the form of notes added in the margins will have been lost for ever. There's something really hilarious about the bolded part from an organizational perspective. Loezi fucked around with this message at 12:33 on Jun 20, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2019 12:28
|
|
|
FAUXTON posted:Holy poo poo, the absolute insanity of fielding black powder as guerillas. I'm imagining just, like one volley and then hauling rear end before anyone realizes what happened.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2019 12:50
|
|
|
Siivola posted:That's how a lot of guerrilla warfare works, even with modern weapons. You set up a roadblock, pop out to shoot as many people as you can, and then haul rear end while the enemy stumbles into traps chasing you. yeah but with black powder you get one shot before a lengthy reload, and firing is all but guaranteed to give away your position so "as many people as you can" is at most "as many people as you have" and usually guerilla warfare doesn't involve you ambushing with more of your people than they have of theirs. FAUXTON fucked around with this message at 12:59 on Jun 20, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2019 12:57
|
|
|
FMguru posted:Revolutions Podcast just wrapped up a long series on the Mexican Revolution, that seems like a good place to start. Can't recommend that podcast enough, just started in on the Russian Revolution.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2019 13:01
|
|
|
It's not like fifteen AKs magdumping at a truck are exactly hard to notice either. You do what you can with what you've got. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2019 13:02
|
|
|
Siivola posted:It's not like fifteen AKs magdumping at a truck are exactly hard to notice either. You do what you can with what you've got. but you're firing hundreds of rounds a minute, you might have mowed two thirds of the patrol down before even having to change magazines
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2019 13:06
|
|
|
FAUXTON posted:yeah but with black powder you get one shot before a lengthy reload, and firing is all but guaranteed to give away your position so "as many people as you can" is at most "as many people as you have" and usually guerilla warfare doesn't involve you ambushing with more of your people than they have of theirs. On the other hand, you get a free bonus smokescreen to cover your withdrawal! 
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2019 13:06
|
|
|
FAUXTON posted:yeah but with black powder you get one shot before a lengthy reload, and firing is all but guaranteed to give away your position so "as many people as you can" is at most "as many people as you have" and usually guerilla warfare doesn't involve you ambushing with more of your people than they have of theirs. a proper guerrilla campaign in fact only involves you ambushing where the enemy is weak - the entire principle is that your enemy cannot be strong everywhere, so you attack him where he is weak, and force him to spend a lot of time and effort shuffling around (and thus depleting) finite resources
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2019 13:09
|
|
|
^ I get that it's all about having to pick the fights you can win - it's still a guerilla resistance with muzzleloaders against automatic weapons. feedmegin posted:On the other hand, you get a free bonus smokescreen to cover your withdrawal!  that's true - I was thinking of how to address "it worked in the American Revolutionary War so why not against Arisakas and Type 99s" and just imagined this pea soup of smoke enveloping everything as both sides start firing muskets.
FAUXTON fucked around with this message at 13:19 on Jun 20, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2019 13:11
|
|
|
FAUXTON posted:
It didn't really work in the Revolutionary War, though. The irregular warfare that ended up working was more of the frontier/carolinas chevauchee type stuff, not popping out behind trees. Even the state colonial militias tried to fight like regular soldiers after Lexington and Concord. Continental Army regulars fighting Euro-style plus French manpower, artillery, and warships did the trick.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2019 13:16
|
|
|
We're talking about guerilla fighting in hilltop jungles. It would be pretty easy for people well versed in the local terrain to escape. I imagine by 'muzzle loading firearms' we probably mean jezails (or similar rifles) here.
Fangz fucked around with this message at 13:31 on Jun 20, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2019 13:26
|
|
|
Fangz posted:We're talking about guerilla fighting in hilltop jungles. It would be pretty easy for people well versed in the local terrain to escape. I imagine by 'muzzle loading firearms' we probably mean jezails (or similar rifles) here. That they had one shot per person before needing to escape, lest the survivors start firing lots of bullets at the conspicuous cloud of smoke, is the part that makes it insane.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2019 13:41
|
|
|
it also doesn't really make sense to me because an early in an insurgency is grab the guns of your enemies if they're better than your poo poo like yes i am sure they had rifled muskets to start with but as soon as you kill the first dumbass japanese garrison soldier on patrol you grab his rifle, or you bribe a BNA soldier to "lose" his rifle
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2019 13:46
|
|
|
Apparently the UK started sending her supplies so they switched to sten guns later on
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2019 13:47
|
|
|
HEY GUNS posted:Did you guys know Africa was a theater of the Thirty Years War? I didn't. Neat. One of my favourite articles I've ever read is about 15th century printing presses in Africa.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2019 13:58
|
|
|
FAUXTON posted:That they had one shot per person before needing to escape, lest the survivors start firing lots of bullets at the conspicuous cloud of smoke, is the part that makes it insane. The cloud of smoke isn't that conspicuous at 250 metres, depending on lighting conditions and terrain and all that. Not that the original source even said they used black powder. Fangz fucked around with this message at 14:03 on Jun 20, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2019 13:59
|
|
|
CommonShore posted:One of my favourite articles I've ever read is about 15th century printing presses in Africa. Oh my goodness please give me more details.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2019 14:04
|
|
|
Mr Enderby posted:Oh my goodness please give me more details. I'm looking for the article. I was sure it was by David Carlson, but that certainty is dropping. The short version is that almost immediately after getting their hands on the tech, a group of Jesuits set up shop in Africa.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2019 14:12
|
|
|
What happened to motorcycle infantry? Simply too vulnerable compared to a full APC and not that much more maneuverable?
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2019 14:12
|
|
|
Fangz posted:The cloud of smoke isn't that conspicuous at 250 metres, depending on lighting conditions and terrain and all that. Not that the original source even said they used black powder. I took "ancient muzzle-loading guns" to mean black powder, plus given the way breechloaders predated smokeless powder it would be a near certainty that muzzleloader meant black powder.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2019 14:17
|
|
|
FAUXTON posted:That they had one shot per person before needing to escape, lest the survivors start firing lots of bullets at the conspicuous cloud of smoke, is the part that makes it insane. fire. Like, escaping before the enemy figures out what the gently caress is a key part of the exercise even today. You don't go in hoping to utterly annihilate them, you just grab the low-hanging fruit and go.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2019 14:18
|
|
|
KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:it also doesn't really make sense to me because an early in an insurgency is grab the guns of your enemies if they're better than your poo poo True but you’ll need ammo for that weapon and the ability to maintain it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2019 14:18
|
|
|
Flappy Bert posted:What happened to motorcycle infantry? Simply too vulnerable compared to a full APC and not that much more maneuverable? The US military still uses multifuel dirtbikes (Kawasaki KLRs), primarily for courier/liason stuff. But you have a couple of problems with full on motorcycle infantry: 1) lousy off road, pretty much restricted to road travel 2) vulnerable to all manner of stuff 3) doesn't provide a good firing platform 4) doesn't carry many guys, so you end up needing a lot of bieks when you look at it, there's not a lot of advantage over putting the guys in trucks, which is likely cheaper and more useful.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2019 14:19
|
|
|
FastestGunAlive posted:True but you’ll need ammo for that weapon and the ability to maintain it. you get ammo from the guy you got the gun from (and your raids on supply depots/convoys/etc), and maintaining a bolt action rifle is pretty simple. yes, if you have a major failure you aren't going to fix it, but c'est la guerre
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2019 14:22
|
|
|
Mr Enderby posted:Oh my goodness please give me more details. I also realize now that something in my chronology must be off so this is officially now A Thing for me
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2019 14:25
|
|
|
Motorcycle infantry: Dumber than airborne infantry?
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2019 14:28
|
|
|
Fangz posted:The cloud of smoke isn't that conspicuous at 250 metres, depending on lighting conditions and terrain and all that. Not that the original source even said they used black powder. If it's a muzzleloader, it's almost definitely black powder. You can make a flintlock or matchlock musket, bullets, and black powder easily from readily available materials with simple hand tools while smokeless powder requires more chemistry setup (or cartridges to pull apart) and far more caution to avoid a spike in power that will blow the gun up.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2019 14:31
|
|
|
KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:you get ammo from the guy you got the gun from (and your raids on supply depots/convoys/etc), and maintaining a bolt action rifle is pretty simple. yes, if you have a major failure you aren't going to fix it, but c'est la guerre Sure but easier said than done and likely thus why these guerillas stuck with their muzzle loaders. No doubt they used captured equipment when able but seems they weren’t able to do so en made
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2019 14:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 10:49 |
|
|
chitoryu12 posted:If it's a muzzleloader, it's almost definitely black powder. You can make a flintlock or matchlock musket, bullets, and black powder easily from readily available materials with simple hand tools while smokeless powder requires more chemistry setup (or cartridges to pull apart) and far more caution to avoid a spike in power that will blow the gun up. Where do they get the saltpetre from? I was kinda supposing they would be pulling apart cartridges to get at powder to use with these guns, upgraded to be able to withstand the pressures.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2019 14:46
|
|