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BIG HEADLINE posted:It's far more likely that EVE's new Korean overlords pull a "soft reset" by enabling people to literally buy wins. That didn't work before when AAA was being bankrolled (supposedly) by a literal Russian billionaire because you still had to be competent and persistent to do things. If Pearl Abyss makes "official" RMT the new way to win in strategic-level battles in EVE I could see us just loving off on general principle. GF.com server drives are/were one thing, having to buy off the developers lest your opponents do so - that's something else. you'd miss the point, you'd shift from alliance building and that poo poo to a 'let's try and make these idiots pay as much real money as possible to continue to play their dumb video game' unfortunately, there really isn't much you (attainable by the vast majority of players) can do as an individual or small group to mess with or hurt big groups, mostly due to mechanics such as local.
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Jun 20, 2019 05:48
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Wow, did you break your shoehorn tryin to wedge that in there?
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Jun 20, 2019 05:54
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1001 Arabian dicks posted:you'd miss the point, you'd shift from alliance building and that poo poo to a 'let's try and make these idiots pay as much real money as possible to continue to play their dumb video game' anything is possible if someone decides to put the effort into it.
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Jun 20, 2019 06:16
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I like local more than I dont. I'd like to see appearance happen after gate cloak drops.
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Jun 20, 2019 09:05
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ragedx posted:anything is possible if someone decides to put the effort into it. yes, the issue being is that being an aggressor should be worth it, not a huge task/job Micromancer posted:I like local more than I dont. I'd like to see appearance happen after gate cloak drops. more non consensual pvp = better, especially in the current state of the game
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Jun 20, 2019 10:13
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1001 Arabian dicks posted:just remove local, congrats you've fixed the pvpve ecosystem replace all stargates with holes and 
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Jun 20, 2019 11:41
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In fact, those bozos in CCP should make a "Siege Perilous" equivalent server with higher SP gains where there will be no communication beacons (no local) and all highsec systems will only go up to 0.4 security status, and people will have to start anew to play in it.
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Jun 20, 2019 11:52
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1001 Arabian dicks posted:you'd miss the point, you'd shift from alliance building and that poo poo to a 'let's try and make these idiots pay as much real money as possible to continue to play their dumb video game' Maybe if you didnt focus exclusively on taking out freighters in highsec or finding new ways to get banned through exploits you'd be able to.
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Jun 20, 2019 12:28
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Dalael posted:Maybe if you didnt focus exclusively on taking out freighters in highsec or finding new ways to get banned through exploits you'd be able to. Globby is a hero of emergent gameplay. Please restrain yourself.
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Jun 20, 2019 13:53
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I think as nullsec conflict dies down and subs continue to decrease, I think everyone who has posted that more pay2win mechanics will be introduced is correct -- even though EVE already has some pretty egregious ones in the form of skill injectors and being able to literally just sell PLEX until you have the character and ISK you want to do whatever you want, even if you're terrible at it. The posters saying that other PA titles aren't as bad as EVE to begin with are correct, but they don't have the formula that EVE does that incentivizes skipping time/grind as much as EVE. I mean CCP is open to milking EVE as hard as possible for cash before it crashes: you only have to look at ALL the development around Incarna, monoclegate, and that whole two year period of actual content drought to see that. I would say have fun with EVE while it is as healthy as it is now -- I don't see any seismic shifts that are going to enhance the population any more. I know the shtick is that "EVE is dying" and has been since 2003, but the writing on the wall now is a little different -- and that has nothing to do with goons "winning" nullsec -- if anything that victory is a symptom of much, much larger problems that the game has been hurdling towards because of poor design choices for a decade.
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Jun 20, 2019 14:02
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Kimsemus posted:I think as nullsec conflict dies down and subs continue to decrease, I think everyone who has posted that more pay2win mechanics will be introduced is correct -- even though EVE already has some pretty egregious ones in the form of skill injectors and being able to literally just sell PLEX until you have the character and ISK you want to do whatever you want, even if you're terrible at it. i'm stealing this from innominate, but a lot of the underlying rot is because eve's pve is, essentially, exactly what it was fifteen years ago. the game is just plain not fun for someone tooling around for the first time without already being in the protective embrace of a major nullsec bloc, and so there's just a very thin pipeline of new players and instead nullsec winds up being mostly the same poo poo floating around recolagulating. if someone hears about eve and thinks "that seems neat" and joins up, everything they do in the first two weeks is boring as all loving hell and then they quit. so there's no real pipeline of new people. it's been papered over by goonswarm/test/horde basically being the NPE for a decade or more but that merely reinforces the stagnation of nullsec because any new player is transferred right into an existing bloc. i don't know that there's a way to structure a harsh winner-take-all game like EVE that does not have a dominant strategy of consolidating into the largest power bloc you can. if there is, CCP hasn't found it and doesn't have the people who can find it (and certainly can't do it with the amount of effort they're willing to put into the game). the pay to win aspects of being able to plex/injector your way up to a titan pilot are...not super...but it's also not clear to me EVE could survive without a way to skip the long grind that everyone already playing has already done, it's just not viable to have every new player permanently behind every vet the only thing that i've seen out of ccp in the last half decade or so that offered a realistic possibility of revitalizing eve was the stargates to new space: you could design and structure that in such a way that it became essentially an eve 2.0 and existing advantages didn't really port over to new space, and then just rely on the years-long process of reconsolidation on the other side to have the sort of fractured small politics that made early eve interesting. but that's long dead as is the willingness to essentially code an entirely new eve. eve's in maintenance mode and the only changes that have realistic possibilities of being done in reasonable time frames are attribute tweaks. the idea that goons should not have crushed nc/pl because it's ~bad for the game~ is hilarious idioticy of course, and is mostly overblown because nc/pl hangers-on are trying to win a reddit war. once we're done its not like we can go control the drone regions, or that all of the people who are, well, "tolerant" of us right now because they hate ncpl more will stay that way. but as long as ccp isn't willing to spend the money to revitalize eve, it's going to continue having stories that sound pretty similar to those from last year and the year before until people get bored of them.
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Jun 20, 2019 14:53
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A few MMOs have a catch up by paying mechanic. In WoW you can just buy a level boost straight to max level or 10 below it. It doesn't mean you are any good with what you have boosted. EvE also HAS to have a catch up mechanic. I have a buddy who joined and if he wasn't able to actually get into a some what decent combat ship, with me feeding him skill injectors, I do not believe he would still be playing. Skill injectors may be lovely but they are helping the game with adding more alts or new players that could be undocking more ships. You don't need a million subs to have a successful game. You just need to have a dedicated player base that you are willing to work with.
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Jun 20, 2019 14:54
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Other MMOs you generally catch up by just playing and leveling (ie: the point of the game). In Eve you have to sit around for actual years (and never actually catch up assuming there are new skills/ships) or grind a tedious in game activity to earn like $2 an hour to convert to skill points or just directly pay CCP like hundreds of dollars. The only way to competently understand the game mechanics and actually engage in PvP content is to find and join a player run corporation, some of which (GSF and I assume others) require you to install like four different out of game apps just to play the game. Any new player who actually sticks with Eve is either incredibly resilient or just a huge idiot with infinite time. It is absolutely a dying game until there is a massive fundamental change that can get people like under the age of 25 to play. And any massive change is unlikely to happen since you have the mother of all sunk cost people who have been spending 20+ hours a week running space guilds for a literal decade who don't really want anything to change versus a company that needs their whales to stay onboard in order to exist.
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Jun 20, 2019 15:42
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Honestly, my opinion is that they need to make New Eden bigger than it is, make many more null sec systems that incentives people to spread out, bring back the region specific poo poo they removed for industry, and do something—I have not figured out what yet—to incentivize, but not force, smaller alliances and coalitions. Basically they need to make the game big enough that one alliance or coalition painting all of the null sec map a single color is such a logistical nightmare that nobody wants to do it. All of that would incentivize more localized conflict in null sec, and fundamentally alter the meta.
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Jun 20, 2019 15:45
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GOOD TIMES ON METH posted:Other MMOs you generally catch up by just playing and leveling (ie: the point of the game). In Eve you have to sit around for actual years (and never actually catch up assuming there are new skills/ships) or grind a tedious in game activity to earn like $2 an hour to convert to skill points or just directly pay CCP like hundreds of dollars. Except that isn't true. There's literal memes about 2 day old newbies getting tackle on a dread that got popped. There are plateaus along the skill progression where you can be 99% as useful as a 10 year vet, since each skill caps out at 5.
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Jun 20, 2019 16:04
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yeah, to be *very* effective at rifter took me like a week back in the day. from there to perfect skills takes like 2 years, but you can still be very effective while training that poo poo.
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Jun 20, 2019 16:10
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CainFortea posted:Except that isn't true. There's literal memes about 2 day old newbies getting tackle on a dread that got popped. There are plateaus along the skill progression where you can be 99% as useful as a 10 year vet, since each skill caps out at 5. that hasn't happened in a decade
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Jun 20, 2019 16:24
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CainFortea posted:Except that isn't true. There's literal memes about 2 day old newbies getting tackle on a dread that got popped. There are plateaus along the skill progression where you can be 99% as useful as a 10 year vet, since each skill caps out at 5. this is a propaganda piece for the most part though -- and again, only facilitated by the NPE which is organized by the largest groups, which, as weasel said, pipes the diminutive supply of new players into existing orgs instead of encouraging them to start new ones, try new corps, or do other activities. it's a meme that represents a "best case scenario" for those alliances but does virtually nothing to diversify or enhance the health of the game. That 2 day old newbie is 100% dependent on the umbilical of his host alliance to do literally everything in the game and is unable to do meaningful things on his own anyway. I've messed around on brand new characters just to tool around with the current CCP-designed NPE, and it's absolutely awful. The absolute minimal amount of ISK you can make on your own doesn't even come close to being able to keep up with the exploding PLEX inflation or buying anything in the game, the PVE content is boring, and the meme were you get tackle on a dread or something is just that: a terrible, impossible meme for almost all new players. The average person who stumbles into EVE will experience boring, unrewarding PVE, where even affording a T2 ship without incredible luck or knowledge is impossible, and where PVP is incomprehensible and completely lop-sided. Their only hope is to either be self-starting enough to do tons of research to figure out what to do next, have someone already established to guide them, or get lucky and fall into a decent, organized group on their own. None of those prospects are particularly conducive to retaining any appreciable number of players. To say that the grind/barrier to entry isn't true because a newbro can tackle a dread is equivalent to huffing your own farts, falling for your own propaganda, and isn't the experience that is common to the vast majority of new players at all. Kimsemus fucked around with this message at 16:31 on Jun 20, 2019 |
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Jun 20, 2019 16:25
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trying to catch poo poo in lowsec in a frig when i only just started playing was some of the more fun experiences i had in this game, but i'll admit i also haven't played in a decade lol
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Jun 20, 2019 16:29
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GOOD TIMES ON METH posted:Other MMOs you generally catch up by just playing and leveling (ie: the point of the game). In Eve you have to sit around for actual years (and never actually catch up assuming there are new skills/ships) or grind a tedious in game activity to earn like $2 an hour to convert to skill points or just directly pay CCP like hundreds of dollars. The only way to competently understand the game mechanics and actually engage in PvP content is to find and join a player run corporation, some of which (GSF and I assume others) require you to install like four different out of game apps just to play the game. Eve-Online would need to go further into PvE with no consequences for dying in order to bring in new players. Everyone left is a long time hardcore player with 20+ alt accounts. I doubt the game is bringing in new people and it probably never will, at least not in any meaningful numbers. People don't want PvP MMOs where they lose stuff. CainFortea posted:Except that isn't true. There's literal memes about 2 day old newbies getting tackle on a dread that got popped. There are plateaus along the skill progression where you can be 99% as useful as a 10 year vet, since each skill caps out at 5. This sort of thing happens maybe once in a blue moon though. The stories of massive epic PvP encounters are incredibly rare and not something you should ever expect to happen during your time in the game.
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Jun 20, 2019 16:39
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I said come in! posted:Eve-Online would need to go further into PvE with no consequences for dying in order to bring in new players. Everyone left is a long time hardcore player with 20+ alt accounts. I doubt the game is bringing in new people and it probably never will, at least not in any meaningful numbers. People don't want PvP MMOs where they lose stuff. I don't think people mind full-loot PVP games or full-loot MMOs, so long as the grind to recover the loss isn't so punishing. At this point in EVE's existence I can't imagine being a new person trying to replace PVP losses of reasonably fit ships. Ratting for anything less than 100m/hour (which a newbro will never see) at this point is almost abhorrent to me, and doing PVE at all in EVE is generally awful. I don't even want to think of 12+ hours of straight grinding to PLEX just one account, and if I didn't have a pile of ISK I'd probably hate EVE even more.
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Jun 20, 2019 16:43
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I said come in! posted:Eve-Online would need to go further into PvE with no consequences for dying in order to bring in new players. Everyone left is a long time hardcore player with 20+ alt accounts. I doubt the game is bringing in new people and it probably never will, at least not in any meaningful numbers. People don't want PvP MMOs where they lose stuff. this just isn't true. people like the idea of eve when they read about it, try it, and find that it's loving terrible for anyone who isn't already an established player. that's why there's big spikes every time eve makes the news that deliver basically zero net new players. it's not that the PvE has consequences or lack thereof, it's that the PvE is a minimum viable product someone hacked together fifteen years ago as part of a desperate effort to ship before they ran out of money that has never been iterated on and is aggressively unfun, and a new player will naturally gravitate to try out the PvE stuff while they learn the game because diving into PvP without a huge support structure is guaranteed to be unfun frustration as you get pasted repeatedly without any real idea how to play
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Jun 20, 2019 16:45
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Kimsemus posted:I don't think people mind full-loot PVP games or full-loot MMOs, so long as the grind to recover the loss isn't so punishing. At this point in EVE's existence I can't imagine being a new person trying to replace PVP losses of reasonably fit ships. Ratting for anything less than 100m/hour (which a newbro will never see) at this point is almost abhorrent to me, and doing PVE at all in EVE is generally awful. I don't even want to think of 12+ hours of straight grinding to PLEX just one account, and if I didn't have a pile of ISK I'd probably hate EVE even more. I mean, not only that, but replacing your poo poo is a pain in the rear end—at least they allow saving fits and auto fitting from them now—which, in addition to the cost of grinding to replace poo poo, usually means (for new players not living in 1DQ) flying a bunch of jumps to Jita, or god forbid one of the other trade hubs, and then hauling that poo poo back to wherever. And god forbid you are a newer player with a sec status that does not allow you to make it to Jita and back. You pretty much have to have an alt that can fly the same poo poo you can if you are in anything bigger than a cruiser.
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Jun 20, 2019 16:51
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evilweasel posted:this just isn't true. people like the idea of eve when they read about it, try it, and find that it's loving terrible for anyone who isn't already an established player. that's why there's big spikes every time eve makes the news that deliver basically zero net new players. I think some hisec people buy into the "try pvp with frigs" line or whatever in lowsec and then they spend an evening getting blown up by nerds in deadspace daredevils or whatever else and have 0 fun 10 years ago (or earlier) they shouldve made some single player hisec/lowsec pve that was an approximation of pvp, instead of a lovely bot-able grindfest people have figured out how to scale nullsec pve massively over the past decade (as hardware has gotten good enough to run 5+ game instances), and it just becomes an autismo contest
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Jun 20, 2019 16:55
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I said come in! posted:Eve-Online would need to go further into PvE with no consequences for dying in order to bring in new players. Everyone left is a long time hardcore player with 20+ alt accounts. I doubt the game is bringing in new people and it probably never will, at least not in any meaningful numbers. People don't want PvP MMOs where they lose stuff. Ya'all missing the point. I've played since 2006. You could make a new character, and in a week you could be at the very least 90% as effective as flying a t1 tackle as me.
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Jun 20, 2019 16:59
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CainFortea posted:Ya'all missing the point. I've played since 2006. You could make a new character, and in a week you could be at the very least 90% as effective as flying a t1 tackle as me. if flying a t1 tackle frigate existed in a content void where the rest of the game didn't exist, yeah, I guess the literal skillpoint math makes you 90% effective in turning on your scrambler module. too bad you're missing the entire point and problem though
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Jun 20, 2019 17:00
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CainFortea posted:Ya'all missing the point. I've played since 2006. You could make a new character, and in a week you could be at the very least 90% as effective as flying a t1 tackle as me. 100% as effective, because t1 tackle might as well not exist. everyone talking about it was playing this game at least a decade ago because that's the last time it mattered.
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Jun 20, 2019 17:02
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CainFortea posted:Ya'all missing the point. I've played since 2006. You could make a new character, and in a week you could be at the very least 90% as effective as flying a t1 tackle as me. Doesn't matter, you won't be doing anything with that role. MAYBE you will, but probably not. Besides that, no one wants to fly a T1 frigate, certainly not anyone brand new to the game who isn't a goon, and those are the kinda players CCP needs to attract right now. Players want to take part in PvP in gigantic gently caress off ships and shoot each other until someone explodes, and they want to replace those ships effortlessly and quickly so they can get back into fighting one another. Until this happens, Eve-Online is going to continue to decline and will only be sustained by whales buying stuff off the cash shop. You'll see a massive change in PvP once this is no longer happening.
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Jun 20, 2019 17:04
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You're right. Obviously being as effective in a specific role literally only applies to t1 tackle. It in NO WAY can be extrapolated to any other roles. For all other roles, you'd have to wait 13 years to catch up to my skills in any other role.
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Jun 20, 2019 17:08
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I said come in! posted:Doesn't matter, you won't be doing anything with that role. MAYBE you will, but probably not. Besides that, no one wants to fly a T1 frigate, certainly not anyone brand new to the game who isn't a goon, and those are the kinda players CCP needs to attract right now. Players want to take part in PvP in gigantic gently caress off ships and shoot each other until someone explodes, and they want to replace those ships effortlessly and quickly so they can get back into fighting one another. Until this happens, Eve-Online is going to continue to decline and will only be sustained by whales buying stuff off the cash shop. You'll see a massive change in PvP once this is no longer happening. This is already happening. You can't even roam most of null anymore with your friends, titans are numerous and fungible enough to just sit on gates now and boson a subcap fleet jumping in, nuking all of them. A t1 frigate, or really anything a new person could fly is such a meaningless, inconsequential joke that they might as well not even be there. They might feel like they're doing something -- right up until they get 1-2 volleyed by someone and podded back into hisec or whatever. Goonswarm may have some kind of NPE pipe that gives some glimmer of hope for a new person to matter (they probably won't) but for the entire rest of the game, and most of those new goons, the game is a joyless, outdated PVE grind, a logistical nightmare making you dependent on alts you can't fathom as a new player or wholly dependent on others for the bare basic function of getting ships fitted and in position, PVP in doctrine ships for most new people is months out of reach, and in that time they will quit anyway. There was always a huge disparity in time of doing un-fun things in EVE in order to facilitate the doing of fun things, and that margin is every widening, when it needs to get narrower. CainFortea posted:You're right. Obviously being as effective in a specific role literally only applies to t1 tackle. It in NO WAY can be extrapolated to any other roles. Literally no one is talking about skillpoints you dense shitbird. Kimsemus fucked around with this message at 17:12 on Jun 20, 2019 |
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Jun 20, 2019 17:10
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#Frigatelivesmatter
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Jun 20, 2019 17:22
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ZombieLenin posted:Honestly, my opinion is that they need to make New Eden bigger than it is, make many more null sec systems that incentives people to spread out, bring back the region specific poo poo they removed for industry, and do something—I have not figured out what yet—to incentivize, but not force, smaller alliances and coalitions. Wouldn't that just make eve feel more empty (and more dead)?
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Jun 20, 2019 17:26
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Kimsemus posted:Literally no one is talking about skillpoints you dense shitbird. GOOD TIMES ON METH posted:Other MMOs you generally catch up by just playing and leveling (ie: the point of the game). In Eve you have to sit around for actual years (and never actually catch up assuming there are new skills/ships) or grind a tedious in game activity to earn like $2 an hour to convert to skill points or just directly pay CCP like hundreds of dollars. It's almost like you didn't read before drooling on the keyboard.
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Jun 20, 2019 17:26
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that eventually a newbie can match your skillpoints with one specific ship is not as much of a gotcha! as you seem to think it is, considering that there are tons of ships, the meta shifts quickly, and that flexibility to switch between ships is important that caps and supercaps take a year+ to train for on a dedicated alt is also rather relevant and the basic point - that there is no way to "grind" your way to parity without skill injectors - is 100% accurate because the only other way you get SP is just by sitting around with your thumb up your rear end
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Jun 20, 2019 17:30
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CainFortea posted:It's almost like you didn't read before drooling on the keyboard.  evilweasel posted:that eventually a newbie can match your skillpoints with one specific ship is not as much of a gotcha! as you seem to think it is, considering that there are tons of ships, the meta shifts quickly, and that flexibility to switch between ships is important
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Jun 20, 2019 17:32
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evilweasel posted:that eventually a newbie can match your skillpoints with one specific ship is not as much of a gotcha! as you seem to think it is, considering that there are tons of ships, the meta shifts quickly, and that flexibility to switch between ships is important I'm not trying to make any gotchas. I simply pointed out that, outside fitting skills, there's not some kind of overall thing that progressively gets better. Once you cap a skill it's done. Be it someone who finally got AWU V after 6 months, or someone who got it 10 years ago.
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Jun 20, 2019 17:33
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CainFortea posted:I'm not trying to make any gotchas. I simply pointed out that, outside fitting skills, there's not some kind of overall thing that progressively gets better. Once you cap a skill it's done. Be it someone who finally got AWU V after 6 months, or someone who got it 10 years ago. if you got awu v ten years ago you probably have 100-200m more sp than the guy who got it 6 months ago, a gap he will never close without skill injectors or you quitting permanently
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Jun 20, 2019 17:35
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Overall, sure. But eve play isn't about some overall thing. What having 100+ SP does for me is give me many more roles to choose from. It doesn't make me better at those roles than someone who has the same skill levels in those roles. Edit: Considering the discussion was specifically about skillpoints, that's sort of what i'm talking about. VVVVV CainFortea fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Jun 20, 2019 |
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Jun 20, 2019 17:36
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CainFortea posted:I'm not trying to make any gotchas. I simply pointed out that, outside fitting skills, there's not some kind of overall thing that progressively gets better. Once you cap a skill it's done. Be it someone who finally got AWU V after 6 months, or someone who got it 10 years ago. I mean if you ignore the multitude of factors that make up the game, many of which have been brought up here that cripple the gameplay experience and treat "ability to fit and turn on a module" as the bar by which gameplay is measured then yeah you're right 
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Jun 20, 2019 17:36
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CainFortea posted:Overall, sure. But eve play isn't about some overall thing. What having 100+ SP does for me is give me many more roles to choose from. It doesn't make me better at those roles than someone who has the same skill levels in those roles. in a game like eve, flexibility is a tremendously valuable character trait, not least because if you want to pvp you must also have some ability to make money (requiring you to spec into a seperate role) and what pvp ships are "good" changes routinely. if we are both equally good at the FOTM because you spent your first six months training into it, we are not equal when that FOTM changes and you have to train an entirely new set of skills that i trained six years ago to have a decent ship we are also not equal if, say, the current war ends and the ship you trained that is good in massive wars is no good in low-level skirmishing that happens in between wars (or vice versa) evilweasel fucked around with this message at 17:45 on Jun 20, 2019 |
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Jun 20, 2019 17:43
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