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and, most importantly, the new character will never feel equal if there is always a group of older players they can never hope to crack into, and that will discourage people from playing. hell, someone i tried (and failed) to get into eve asked me when they started playing if eve let them ever catch up to the people who had been playing forever. he didn't mean "can i fly that specific ship as well" he meant it in a more general sense - and because this was before skillpoint injectors, the answer was no. i'm pretty sure that was not a positive answer for him. remove skill injectors, a new player in goonswarm could hope one day with hard work to be as rich as me. they could hope to be as space-important as me. many people have hit either of those bars. they could never hope to ever have as many skillpoints as my main, and that will be offputting to people who will feel like a permanent underclass even if you tell them that in practice, three months of actually flying in fleets will make them better at flying any of the ships that my main can theoretically fly "perfectly" that i could not tell you how to fit if my life depended on it
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Jun 20, 2019 17:48
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evilweasel posted:in a game like eve, flexibility is a tremendously valuable character trait, not least because if you want to pvp you must also have some ability to make money (requiring you to spec into a seperate role) and what pvp ships are "good" changes routinely. if we are both equally good at the FOTM because you spent your first six months training into it, we are not equal when that FOTM changes and you have to train an entirely new set of skills that i trained six years ago to have a decent ship Of course it's valuable. But to claim that a newbie will never catch up to usefulness for actual 2 years+ is wrong. In 2 years a player could pretty easily be in a ratting setup, logi, BC doctrine, and an inty with the same skillpoint level I have. That isn't useless.
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Jun 20, 2019 17:49
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evilweasel posted:in a game like eve, flexibility is a tremendously valuable character trait, not least because if you want to pvp you must also have some ability to make money (requiring you to spec into a seperate role) and what pvp ships are "good" changes routinely. if we are both equally good at the FOTM because you spent your first six months training into it, we are not equal when that FOTM changes and you have to train an entirely new set of skills that i trained six years ago to have a decent ship no ship is as useful as massed supercaps, because the only real counter is N+1 unless someone isnt as strong and is dreadbombable rorqs+supercaps allow high value pve to go rather smoothly, allowing the generation of more rorqs+supercaps
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Jun 20, 2019 17:49
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evilweasel posted:and, most importantly, the new character will never feel equal if there is always a group of older players they can never hope to crack into i remember your 2010-12 exasperation with alphafleet vs tracking titans each titan cost as much in srp as a single tracking titan, but tracking titans didn't die, ever
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Jun 20, 2019 17:51
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CainFortea posted:Of course it's valuable. But to claim that a newbie will never catch up to usefulness for actual 2 years+ is wrong. In 2 years a player could pretty easily be in a ratting setup, logi, BC doctrine, and an inty with the same skillpoint level I have. That isn't useless. yes, but you will be two years ahead of them at that point. they can catch where you are now. they can never overtake you, and that's off-putting to people on a fundamental level.
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Jun 20, 2019 17:51
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CainFortea posted:Of course it's valuable. But to claim that a newbie will never catch up to usefulness for actual 2 years+ is wrong. In 2 years a player could pretty easily be in a ratting setup, logi, BC doctrine, and an inty with the same skillpoint level I have. That isn't useless. on a baser level, imagine the suspension of disbelief required to believe someone would join EVE now and play for two years  which circles back to the points people are making about what is wrong with the entire way EVE attracts [and fails] to retain new players.
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Jun 20, 2019 17:54
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Kimsemus posted:this is a propaganda piece for the most part though -- and again, only facilitated by the NPE which is organized by the largest groups, which, as weasel said, pipes the diminutive supply of new players into existing orgs instead of encouraging them to start new ones, try new corps, or do other activities. Very well "said" and I completely agree with this. The whole newbie tackle is like at work when someone tell you they do the job because it makes a difference.
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Jun 20, 2019 17:55
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Skill injectors are good and most people who complaining about them are cobweb laden old fucks who are terrified by the idea that a new player may one day challenge them on the only thing left in the world that gives them a sense of superiority. Their skill points. Yeah injectors are expensive but a newbie gets their VNI ratting on and get one here and one there and eventually they catch up. Not all 5's but like a couple of different ships with T2 equipment.
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Jun 20, 2019 17:59
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Landsknecht posted:i remember your 2010-12 exasperation with alphafleet vs tracking titans i assume you mean each fleet, and yeah tracking titans were loving infuriating. the whole aspect of "you don't have any supercaps unless you have the most supercaps" has always been what sucks so badly about them. back in MY DAY when massed dreads were the thing, your dreads still mattered if you didn't have the mostest, and if you had the most dreads but not anything else, well suddenly you didn't have any (live) dreads either. part of how we eventually caught up in supercaps was, and I'm not joking at all here, trying to raise awareness of the viability of supercap ratting so that people would build lots of supercaps without the need to convince people we'd be able to use them in pvp so that we'd eventually get the critical mass we needed. trying to figure out good ways to rat in titans got lots of attention from The Finest Minds In Goonfleet (we never really solved the stront logistics problem, though had we been farther from parity we might have tried to use alliance resources to seed it everywhere) because supercarriers being as good for ratting as titans meant we were too supercarrier heavy and not titan-heavy enough. that delve was safe enough to rat in supercarriers and titans, and that ratting in supercarriers was an actually not-idiotic idea, did more for our supercarrier numbers than any amount of rorquals
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Jun 20, 2019 17:59
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evilweasel posted:yes, but you will be two years ahead of them at that point. they can catch where you are now. they can never overtake you, and that's off-putting to people on a fundamental level. Well, I'd imagine one thing to help make that less offputting would be for people like Kimsemus to stop spreading the idea that no one will ever be as useful as a bitter vet at literally everything so don't even bother trying. Looking at eve solely as overall mutability of a single character is rear end backwards. It's all about what roles you can fly and bring to fleets.
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Jun 20, 2019 18:00
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Katt posted:Skill injectors are good and most people who complaining about them are cobweb laden old fucks who are terrified by the idea that a new player may one day challenge them on the only thing left in the world that gives them a sense of superiority. Their skill points. yeah, fixing access to skillpoints alone is the problem definitely not anything else how are they going to pay for the ships? the skills? The injector, for that matter? Then circle back to what has been said before about the NPE and realize the problem. CainFortea posted:Well, I'd imagine one thing to help make that less offputting would be for people like Kimsemus to stop spreading the idea that no one will ever be as useful as a bitter vet at literally everything so don't even bother trying. imagine being so loving stupid that you truly believe that having access to skill injectors fixes the fundamental problems with the NPE, see above -- good luck being a new guy being able to afford injectors without knowing someone or spending more RL money to play. good luck even understanding the concept of injectors and what role they play and how and what skillpoint relativity even means as a new player. gently caress you're dumb. Kimsemus fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Jun 20, 2019 |
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Jun 20, 2019 18:00
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CainFortea posted:Well, I'd imagine one thing to help make that less offputting would be for people like Kimsemus to stop spreading the idea that no one will ever be as useful as a bitter vet at literally everything so don't even bother trying. a new player will instinctively understand that more skillpoints == better than, and it requires a substantial amount of explaining to understand the ways in which it is not true, explaining that a new player who is iffy about eve will not get from the game and probably will never really believe even if they understand the game principles behind where it is not true
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Jun 20, 2019 18:01
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evilweasel posted:a new player will instinctively understand that more skillpoints == better than, and it requires a substantial amount of explaining to understand the ways in which it is not true, explaining that a new player who is iffy about eve will not get from the game and probably will never really believe even if they understand the game principles behind where it is not true Yea, we have to supply it. Which is a conversation i've had a bajillion times on mumble with people. Like, I know very well about explaining the oddities of eve to newbies.
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Jun 20, 2019 18:03
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evilweasel posted:yes, but you will be two years ahead of them at that point. they can catch where you are now. they can never overtake you, and that's off-putting to people on a fundamental level. Nobody should expect to overtake older players. It's a stupid expectation to have.
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Jun 20, 2019 18:04
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Was seeing earlier people talking about T1 tackle being a thing. T1 tackle is utter trash when you have things like a garmur with faction points and implants. It's way better than any newbie can afford. T1 tackle also doesn't matter when they get shot to poo poo by most ships now. You can get lucky and get that one in a million lucky tackle on something. Its all a marketing/propaganda thing. Like I said before Most things seem to gravitate to long range anyways, where tackle doesn't matter or very fast ships that can't be held down by one tackle. The whole FW thing is 1/4 way there into actually having some decent content but like most things ccp releases it is half-assed and players abuse it.
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Jun 20, 2019 18:05
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CainFortea posted:Yea, we have to supply it. Which is a conversation i've had a bajillion times on mumble with people. Like, I know very well about explaining the oddities of eve to newbies. yeah but that circles back to the fundamental problem with eve: it is designed in a way to make it as off-putting as possible to someone who hears about it and gives it a try without being hand-held by an existing powerbloc. it will continue to stagnate and eventually die if the only real way to join eve and have fun is to be recruited by waffe/test/horde
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Jun 20, 2019 18:05
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Dalael posted:Nobody should expect to overtake older players. It's a stupid expectation to have. expecting to overtake older players, and believing it is possible, are two different things people will happily play a game where they know existing players know the game better than they do, or have even accumulated advantages that will help them, as long as they believe there's a path to being one of those players themselves. they probably won't - but they won't play the game if they definitely won't.
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Jun 20, 2019 18:07
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evilweasel posted:expecting to overtake older players, and believing it is possible, are two different things it's classic carrot/stick theory: the carrot: "one day I will be as good as this other person." the stick: "that person is currently beating the poo poo out of me." break that illusion or expose it as impossible -- people will not play. EVE is still a voluntary activity for most. And it's not impossible to get there: but the road is narrow, the path is long, and it is winding indeed.
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Jun 20, 2019 18:09
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evilweasel posted:expecting to overtake older players, and believing it is possible, are two different things In principle I agree with your explanation and what you say make sense. But the idea that player joins a 15 year old game and thinking they'll catch up or even overtake others, is laughable. But I do get what you're saying.
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Jun 20, 2019 18:09
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Dalael posted:In principle I agree with your explanation and what you say make sense. But the idea that player joins a 15 year old game and thinking they'll catch up or even overtake others, is laughable. But I do get what you're saying. fair -- now imagine telling a new player that how many do you think will even bother installing the client then? Now -- if the path to doing so is EXTREMELY HARD, but they see a way to do it, that changes things.
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Jun 20, 2019 18:10
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evilweasel posted:i assume you mean each fleet, and yeah tracking titans were loving infuriating. the whole aspect of "you don't have any supercaps unless you have the most supercaps" has always been what sucks so badly about them. back in MY DAY when massed dreads were the thing, your dreads still mattered if you didn't have the mostest, and if you had the most dreads but not anything else, well suddenly you didn't have any (live) dreads either. supercap ratting is a good thing, since it gets people using them I remember when I jebaited a few people into PL; everyone was itching to use their toys and didn't have many options so they were chomping at the bit
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Jun 20, 2019 18:11
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evilweasel posted:yeah but that circles back to the fundamental problem with eve: it is designed in a way to make it as off-putting as possible to someone who hears about it and gives it a try without being hand-held by an existing powerbloc. it will continue to stagnate and eventually die if the only real way to join eve and have fun is to be recruited by waffe/test/horde Yea. I don't know what the fix is. It's skill system and the FYGM and massive collaboration is pretty unique to Eve, which I think at this point is the only thing keeping people interested. If you make it "wow but like, in space" it loses it's flavor. Maybe it could be done in such a way by some really good talent, I dunno. But if it could I doubt CCP could do it with the people they have now.
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Jun 20, 2019 18:11
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Kimsemus posted:fair -- now imagine telling a new player that *nods* I tried to get a few people to join. I brought up this point. Not sure if they got it or not but in the end, none of the people I brought to the game stayed because let's face it.. it sucks. What makes the game fun, is the people you play with and they just weren't interested in joining a large group.
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Jun 20, 2019 18:15
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Wow, a mostly civil discussion about how Eve Is Dying. I have been spending too much time on bad forums; I had begun to think it was impossible. So many horrible ideas, spoken by so many people with no clue as to the actual problem.
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Jun 20, 2019 18:20
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Katt posted:Speaking as someone playing another Pearl Abyss game (Black Desert Online) The Pay 2 win is less than pre-PA Eve Dunno what game you're playing but you can sell like 30 costumes (that's 6b or 1/3 of a pen gear piece, most of a tet accessory, or 3 tet gear pieces) a week if you're a hyperwhale, and loot scrolls, melting costumes for crons, and artisans memory exist and are just as powerful if not more powerful than they've ever been. BDO gave up the illusion of p2w a long time ago, it's just expensive enough that only hyperwhales can do it to the extreme.
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Jun 20, 2019 18:21
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evilweasel posted:a new player will instinctively understand that more skillpoints == better than, and it requires a substantial amount of explaining to understand the ways in which it is not true, explaining that a new player who is iffy about eve will not get from the game and probably will never really believe even if they understand the game principles behind where it is not true All they have to do is actually do the thing. Luckily, eve is more tilted to actual experience. Money allows you to go learn faster and CCP knows this. This is why they are making a killing on plex and skill injectors. EvE is a social game and without the "people" portion of it then people tend to get bored and leave quick. Comes back to the fact there is no decent pve content at the start of the game. There are a few games out there that embrace the whole thing "bigger isn't better" so, it is not a new concept. A big issue that was stated before was there is very little pve or even pvp content to support the new bro in his growth from little ship to big ship.
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Jun 20, 2019 18:24
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CainFortea posted:Yea. I don't know what the fix is. It's skill system and the FYGM and massive collaboration is pretty unique to Eve, which I think at this point is the only thing keeping people interested. If you make it "wow but like, in space" it loses it's flavor. well that circles back to "have some pve that isn't atrocious" - the game as a new player just trying to tool around in the universe and explore it a bit is horrifically unfun. it's uninteresting, incredibly repetitive, and requires no thought whatsoever, has virtually no interesting rewards, and never gets more interesting. you've got to have something to do that gets you hooked on the game and playing long enough to discover and get involved in the more complex elements.
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Jun 20, 2019 18:26
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I honestly think that goonswarm is better positioned because someone whom has never played EVE can click on the thread here, hopefully never scroll past the first post, and get involved in the game and have a chance at staying because of the crafted new player experience being provided. But that doesn't apply to 99% of new players whom might look at the game, and I think dissecting why the NPE doesn't work for almost all people, and why efforts at playing by even those with a path to staying are constantly frustrated by bad/outdated mechanics is the first step to understanding the problem. I doubt very much CCP grasps this, because as has been well documented, they don't have people that play their game and most of their talent is gone. But a good analysis of what is wrong with EVE at this stage, I guess, is still valid as an autopsy after the fact. With my full knowledge of the game that a new player doesn't have, the most impossible hurdle for me is the economy at this point -- all PVE accessible to a new player is so diminutive in ISK return for time spent, and so much is out of reach, I don't understand how to overcome it. If skill injectors are a partial solution -- they are totally out of reach for a new player. If PLEX drives account retention -- again, totally out of reach. You can spend RL money on top of everything to solve this, but I don't know how attractive that is for a new player. Kimsemus fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Jun 20, 2019 |
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Jun 20, 2019 18:27
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Gwyneth Palpate posted:Wow, a mostly civil discussion about how Eve Is Dying. I have been spending too much time on bad forums; I had begun to think it was impossible. So many horrible ideas, spoken by so many people with no clue as to the actual problem. Eve is dying cuz grrr goons in titans. duh
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Jun 20, 2019 18:29
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gwrtheyrn posted:Dunno what game you're playing but you can sell like 30 costumes (that's 6b or 1/3 of a pen gear piece, most of a tet accessory, or 3 tet gear pieces) a week if you're a hyperwhale, and loot scrolls, melting costumes for crons, and artisans memory exist and are just as powerful if not more powerful than they've ever been. BDO gave up the illusion of p2w a long time ago, it's just expensive enough that only hyperwhales can do it to the extreme. So in 3 weeks if I invest something like $3000 I can get one top quality item for one of my 13 gear slots? That's not even close to the power that money > plex > isk gets you in Eve. If anything the real problem with BDO is the arbitrary hindrances that you have to buy yourself out of with money. like the lack of AOE loot yo get you to buy pets, the weight limit, inventory size etc. If PA had Eve from the start they would probably have added something like a jump clone cap that was increased by spending plex, Ship insurances would have the higher ones locked out by alpha/omega status and ship skins would have bonuses.
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Jun 20, 2019 18:36
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Katt posted:So in 3 weeks if I invest something like $3000 I can get one top quality item for one of my 13 gear slots? yeah, the real horror of free-to-play games is the deliberate design to make them engaging, but irritating, so that you want to keep playing but need to pay to have the developer stop annoying you fortunately eve's irritations are all completely unintentional and ones that ccp can't figure out how to remove in the first place, let alone charge you to remove
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Jun 20, 2019 18:38
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CainFortea posted:Of course it's valuable. But to claim that a newbie will never catch up to usefulness for actual 2 years+ is wrong. In 2 years a player could pretty easily be in a ratting setup, logi, BC doctrine, and an inty with the same skillpoint level I have. That isn't useless. I played a bit back in the day, but its only been about a year since I have resubbed. I only really had a slight head start over a true newbie being able to fly a Vexor Navy Issue. In that year time I'm now able to fly: Dreadnoughts, Carriers, Freighters, Rorquals, T3 Cruisers, Black Ops Battleships, and every T1 ship with appropriate fittings. I also went from 7b net worth to 150b+ net worth in that year. Its not that hard to catch up in EVE at all.
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Jun 20, 2019 18:40
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evilweasel posted:yeah, the real horror of free-to-play games is the deliberate design to make them engaging, but irritating, so that you want to keep playing but need to pay to have the developer stop annoying you How many plex to get me out of the session change timer while docked in a station?
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Jun 20, 2019 18:42
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Katt posted:So in 3 weeks if I invest something like $3000 I can get one top quality item for one of my 13 gear slots? yea, but..gently caress BDO. It's a mobile game mentality on pc. I bet you the mobile version of eve is going to be utter poo poo now that they are in the same bed with pearl
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Jun 20, 2019 18:56
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Katt posted:That's not even close to the power that money > plex > isk gets you in Eve. So you buy your shiny alliance tournament ship, gate it into amamake then explode, rinse repeat? Cool.
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Jun 20, 2019 19:01
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Speaking as someone who's occasionally been tempted to install EVE because reading about it and watching the game from afar makes it look enticing, let me tell you guys why I never do. See this? This set of basic skills called the magic 14. It takes two and a half goddamn months to get through the absolute mother loving basics. That's without going into anything more interesting. That's without getting into the waits to get into anything that might even vaguely be exciting. Want to try out bombers? Interdiction? Bigger guns? Well either I wait or I'm an active drain on whatever I participate in. Come back in six months to try this out, then find out if you'll actually have fun with it. The only way to change that is to pay. I can't do anything to speed that up in game. Take a ship out, do some stuff that might or might not be fun? Does nothing. My character can put as much time into a ship as I want and they learn nothing while flying it. Or using anything in it. Or for killing stuff. Or mining stuff. Or just tooling around and seeing what there is and providing a target for everybody else. gently caress you newbie, pay us and wait or pay us twice and don't. Other MMOs make you wait, sure, but while you're waiting to get into the parts that are interesting you're working through story or missions or wahtever and otherwise feeling like you have an effect on the progress you make. EVE employs actively hostile game design at the lowest level, how a player progresses, and with the proliferation of mobile games awareness of that kind of thing has penetrated even the mass consciousness. People start it, notice what's up, and then walk away. Goons do a lot to make the game look fun, and I imagine have fun, but it's despite the game.
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Jun 20, 2019 19:15
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Yeah they should just get rid of SP. It's a really simple fix to a lot of problems but also I assume will also never happen since it is a source of income for CCP.
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Jun 20, 2019 19:28
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back in The Day the SP system was sort of attractive as a way to convince people they didn't need to grind in order to play the game, but at that point it also didn't take oodles of SP to be minimally relevant at least they killed the loving learning skills though, those were an abomination for new players
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Jun 20, 2019 19:30
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evilweasel posted:well that circles back to "have some pve that isn't atrocious" - the game as a new player just trying to tool around in the universe and explore it a bit is horrifically unfun. it's uninteresting, incredibly repetitive, and requires no thought whatsoever, has virtually no interesting rewards, and never gets more interesting. you've got to have something to do that gets you hooked on the game and playing long enough to discover and get involved in the more complex elements. That could be a thing. Naturally since you've been saying it a while if CCP ever does unfuck PVE so it's fun and rewarding, we're going to make it even MORE rewarding for us because that's just what we do every time and people gonna whine about goons killing the game by making newbies stay and play the game more.
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Jun 20, 2019 19:30
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GOOD TIMES ON METH posted:Yeah they should just get rid of SP. It's a really simple fix to a lot of problems but also I assume will also never happen since it is a source of income for CCP. If they really wanted to do fix the SP thing, they wouldn't half alphas train at half the speed. If they really did want more newer players to stay, they would speed up the training for the little stuff. Do that and you start to lose revenue fast due to having a lack of content that new players would have access to on a level that is easy to understand and do and be rewarding enough. so they leave to play with fairies and elves and silly poo poo like farming mobile games
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Jun 20, 2019 19:31
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