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bewbies posted:That makes sense - does that imply that the Germans put more effort towards this stuff before the war turned against them, or did they never really figure it out? Soooort of, but in typical Nazi fashion, too little, too late. For example, earlier up-thread I mentioned that they didn't start putting photos into Soldbuchs until 1944. They started doing this because they found out that they were having big problems with enemy infiltrators using captured Soldbuchs and uniforms to infiltrate behind their lines. Consider, all that vital piece of ID had was a basic description. Height, weight, hair color, eye color, shape of face (in typical Nazi style there was a list of approved adjectives to describe faces like "long," "oval," "rectangular," etc) and that's about it. If you're the USSR and you're capturing hundreds of thousands of German soldiers from 1942 on it would be easy to come up with uniforms and ID papers for any infiltrator or spy that matches to this level of detail. ("Find a loyal guy who speaks German and is 5'10" for a dangerous mission.) They did put some anti-counterfeiting measures into making it hard to fake the photos, lest the enemy just take a black and white photo of their spy and stick that into the Soldbuch. For example, some of the photos in the Soldbuchs I've seen are cropped with a very specific edge and stapled in with oddly bent staples, then stamped to make sure they weren't replaced. (And just as many had photos that weren't cropped, just cut out with scissors and stapled in with a regular stapler.) But doing that well enough to preclude forgery requires very specific equipment, policies, procedures, etc., that they just didn't have. Recruiting for the Wehrmacht was handled at the "Wehrkreis" (military district) level. There were 21 of these. A soldier could be issued his Soldbuch at that level or, later in the war, even lower levels. So, consider - does this mean you are going to make 20 or 30 (or more) exactly identical sets of photo croppers and rivet staplers, then ship them to the Wehrkreis? And what happens if a soldier loses his Soldbuch or that Soldbuch is destroyed in combat - do you send him back to his home town to get a new one? No? Okay, then you're going to make a lot more photo croppers and weird staplers and start issuing them down to lower level units. And then what happens when the Soviets start capturing those when they start surrounding and destroying units en masse during Bagration? There really wasn't a good system to administer and run this sort of thing with any sort of precision or uniformity - they just weren't set up to do it and, given the shattered state of the place in the later years of the war, they didn't have the time or resources to start. Cessna fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Jun 21, 2019 |
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Jun 21, 2019 22:43
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Cessna posted:Right, exactly. I just googled it, and it wasn't until 1968 that California started to put photos on Driver's Licenses. In 1998 I got a learners permit from the state of Maine that was a piece of yellow paper with my name written it it by hand. In 2009, two thousand and loving nine, during the presidential term of our first black president, I got a concealed carry permit in North Carolina. It gave me permission to carry a loaded gun pretty much wherever the gently caress I wanted to with restrictions like “not in a courthouse.” That carry permit was a sheet of paper that I signed and embossed with a deal like a notary uses. TONS of documents in the US today could be forged with a scanner, a printer, and maybe a chisel for embossing if you’re really ambitious. The main defense against that poo poo today is easily searchable computer databases.
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Jun 21, 2019 22:50
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HEY GUNS posted:it's the 1940s, american drivers licenses were pieces of typed paper tied to your steering column. matching a fingerprint meant MAILING it to a GIANT ROOM full of REAL PEOPLE who'd look at it for you and get back to you in WEEKS poo poo, I remember my parents had driver's licenses that were just text on cardstock into the early 2000s. Getting the paper card laminated was merely an option. Basically they looked exactly like these cards still used for vehicle registration, except with information about the driver instead of about a car, and I don't think the barcodes were there yet:  Getting a license with the photo on it was an option still, and they just hadn't bothered to do so. Though by the time I was old enough to get a driver's permit they were on plastic cards with photos mandatory and all that.
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Jun 21, 2019 22:59
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Here are a few examples of Soldbuch photos:    See how they aren't really uniform enough to make counterfeiting impossible, just difficult? Fake the stamps and staples and it's good enough. Edit: And look at all of the differences. Different color paper, different sized photos, etc. Cessna fucked around with this message at 23:58 on Jun 21, 2019 |
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Jun 21, 2019 23:00
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I think this is a much broader principle, not just unique to the Nazis. In every society there's a ton of illegal poo poo that's trivially easy to get away with. People generally follow the law because there's an illusion of government enforcement far greater than there actually is, and even for people who know better, the 1% chance they get caught is enough to make them reconsider. It's the misconception that makes civilization possible.
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Jun 21, 2019 23:00
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FYI that tech of “stamp the stamp so it overlaps the photo and do it twice” was still state of the state of the art for German long term visas as of 2003-2010
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Jun 21, 2019 23:06
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I've got a blank East German one (army pass thing). It looks like it'd be pretty trivial to fake now but I wonder how hard it would have been back in the day
ContinuityNewTimes fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Jun 21, 2019 |
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Jun 21, 2019 23:08
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ponzicar posted:I think this is a much broader principle, not just unique to the Nazis. In every society there's a ton of illegal poo poo that's trivially easy to get away with. People generally follow the law because there's an illusion of government enforcement far greater than there actually is, and even for people who know better, the 1% chance they get caught is enough to make them reconsider. It's the misconception that makes civilization possible. Right, yes. The ID card I had in the USMC in the 90's was very simple. It was a piece of green paper - a form - folded in half. It was filled out (name, rank, SSN, etc) with a typewriter. It had a small (about 3 cm x 2 cm) black and white photo on it. After it was filled out it was folded to give it a front and back and laminated. And that's it. It would be utterly trivial to fake one with a trimmed photo, a typewriter, a color printer and a laminator. You could make one that would pass a bored MP's scrutiny in a print shop in a matter of minutes even with late 90's technology if you had an example to work from. And that would be enough to get you through the gate and onto all but the most secure military bases. (Today's IDs are better, but mostly because they have a code that gives a quick connection to a database.) But - so what? If you're a pro spy sneaking onto Camp Pendleton would be an exercise in "why?" What are you going to do, count the number of trucks in the Las Flores motor pool? Buy energy drinks and gym shorts from the PX? The more secure stuff is going to require a lot more checks, like "look up the name on the list and compare with the photos we already have on file" type of things. And the REALLY secure stuff? I don't even know how it is protected. Guards giving eyeball scans? Who knows. That said, a few minutes of questioning, tops, is enough to tell if someone is the real thing or not. Give me ten minutes and I can tell you if someone was a Marine or not, just from asking questions about trivial stuff that only someone who had been in the Corps would know. (What was the name of the strip club near the Del Mar gate? The answer will give an idea of the dates you were in, etc.) Cessna fucked around with this message at 00:04 on Jun 22, 2019 |
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Jun 21, 2019 23:56
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Well there was that one guy who snuck into a camp and stole a tank.
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Jun 22, 2019 00:06
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from what I understand of Eastern bloc armies they would absolutely buy subsidised gym shorts under false pretenses. You can still buy nva shorts on eBay and they look a lot like hot pants
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Jun 22, 2019 00:13
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SlothfulCobra posted:Well there was that one guy who snuck into a camp and stole a tank. Bill Dauterive would have had a legit ID, though?
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Jun 22, 2019 00:16
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Marxist-Jezzinist posted:from what I understand of Eastern bloc armies they would absolutely buy subsidised gym shorts under false pretenses. edit: "Hot pants. Jesus Christ."
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Jun 22, 2019 00:17
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HEY GUNS posted:i am imagining the east-german hot pants shadow economy One pair buys a shitload of bad watches or surprisingly nice silverware
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Jun 22, 2019 00:19
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Cessna posted:Right, yes. Sneaking onto an American military bases is as easy as driving up to the front gate and saying "ah poo poo guys, forgot my pass. Can you cut me a break today?" Also works at the base gym. edit: helps if you stick a magnet to the side of your truck that says "CONTRACTOR"
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Jun 22, 2019 00:45
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According to A Burglar’s Guide to the City, the easiest way to sneak onto a military base—or into anywhere you aren’t supposed to be—is to disguise yourself as a pizza delivery person.
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Jun 22, 2019 01:08
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Cessna posted:Recruiting for the Wehrmacht was handled at the "Wehrkreis" (military district) level. There were 21 of these. what was the purpose of these Kreise and who was in them? Because if Nazi administration turns out to have run on something from the Empire i'm gonna loving murder myself
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Jun 22, 2019 02:05
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HEY GUNS posted:wait Kreis was been used as a generic administrate teem for a while. Ca. the 19th century you see Landkreise, for example, as well as Statkreise and kreisefrei Staedte. I have no doubt the origins are loving old, probably dating to your people and before, but it's no more a specifically Nazi thing than any other tidbit of German language or culture that they appropriated is.
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Jun 22, 2019 02:16
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Cyrano4747 posted:it's no more a specifically Nazi thing than any other tidbit of German language or culture that they appropriated is. i mean some of the problems with Europe in the last half of the 19th century and first half of the 20th is that that loving thing isn't really a state. It's an agglutination, and it's very big, and once someone manages to hammer its northern bits into something state-like, it's so big it becomes an issue for everyone else
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Jun 22, 2019 02:19
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HEY GUNS posted:the other way around, i am terrified and awed that the administrative structures of The Empire may have once again raised their heads Eh, if by those northern bits you mean Prussia you really have ot go back before the 19th century. By even the early 19th C. Prussia controlled enough of northern Germany that it was really a major power in its own right. I get what you're saying but really you're talking more about the 18th than the 19th C.
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Jun 22, 2019 02:24
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HEY GUNS posted:wait I think it dates from the Prussian military reforms in the 19th century. The Wehrkreis themselves were first created during Weimar for the Reichsweir, but they were pretty much just the Army Corps districts from Wilhelmine Germany, and I'm pretty sure that dates from the Prussian General Staff.
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Jun 22, 2019 02:31
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Pulling my notes back up, German territory as of 1939 was divided into 15 military districts, the Wehrkreisen. 4 of them had no particular region assigned to them, but the other 11 were geographic (like District I was East Prussia while District X as Schleswig-Holstein and District XXI was Western Poland). Soldiers would often describe their units by their geographic location, so presumably there was an intent to foster some kind of nationalistic pride by being associated with your home region of Germany or Austria. You did get sent to other districts if you showed such an aptitude for something that your district had no need for, like if you were capable of expert mountain climbing but your district was flatlands.
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Jun 22, 2019 03:04
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I think part of the idea was that soldiers who came from the same area would have more camaraderie because they'd already have relationships and social ties.
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Jun 22, 2019 03:41
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Back when I was drafted I went to the Kreiswehrersatzamt. Just looked that up and this is probably predictable: quote:(…) Kreis als Einteilung der Republik durch die Bundeswehr in Kreise. Diese entsprechen nicht den Landkreisen. Bundeswehr came up with their own homebrew Kreise that were not identical to the Landkreise because of course they did.
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Jun 22, 2019 04:49
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aphid_licker posted:Back when I was drafted I went to the Kreiswehrersatzamt. Just looked that up and this is probably predictable: no offence aphid_licker but why do the us and uk think you guys are efficient again
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Jun 22, 2019 06:12
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Cyrano4747 posted:Eh, if by those northern bits you mean Prussia you really have ot go back before the 19th century. By even the early 19th C. Prussia controlled enough of northern Germany that it was really a major power in its own right. I get what you're saying but really you're talking more about the 18th than the 19th C. edit: small pastries
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Jun 22, 2019 06:16
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HEY GUNS posted:no offence aphid_licker but why do the us and uk think you guys are efficient again I've wondered about this for ages. In as much as there is any basis in any of the silly national/cultural stereotypes (which yeah lol), it's blatantly untrue that Germans are particularly efficient. If it's anything it's that Germans are dogmatic and that kind of looks like efficiency if you never see how the sausage is made and just notice that they make the sausage ever so precisely. (National/cultural stereotypes being anecdotal/dumb/generic/etc. taken as a given and this being more of a study in why the perception exists than actually thinking it's a real thing. We will ignore my love of beer, keeping a rote and highly specific procedure in all life and considering being 15 minutes early to be "on time". That's totally unrelated.)
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Jun 22, 2019 06:29
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Cyrano4747 posted:Not what you're asking for at all, but if you want chill linguistics time with a dash of history try the History of English podcast. I guess there's some philosophy and politics in it if you're into how languages evolve over time and why various groups adopt different words etc. There's some politics involved with why we have some French in our Germanic language. Double post and a day late. I've been diving into this for a bit and I'm not really buying this, academically. Like it seems okay but their resources are kind of meh. Not gonna judge a whole podcast on scrawling through a bit and looking at their bibliography, but I'm not impressed. Especially their weird fixation with making it some kind of cultural thing rather than normal historical linguistics. To give a lovely analogy, that's like someone really being a stan for Great Man and not talking about historical trends, but like for language. Obviously language and culture mix, no poo poo, but this is being pretty pop-sci with the research. I also don't know anyone involved and trivial googling isn't making them seem super informed? I'm gonna listen more to give them a full day in court but this is not a very accurate model of how English evolved, and could also lead you to some really wrong assumptions about other languages (it's Euro-centric as gently caress, which is way worse in linguistics : like not morally, I mean factually, Indo-European bias is a plague on the field.) I wish there was a good linguistics podcast, but there isn't and I'm not charismatic enough to make one.
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Jun 22, 2019 07:34
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Anecdotally, in my experience the Swiss are friendly, organized, and find joy in the finer points of complicated procedures. Then again I work for a major biotech firm owned by a Swiss holding company, so the Swiss we get to meet are very well self-selected for type and pole arms of any description don't enter into it at all.
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Jun 22, 2019 07:42
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mllaneza posted:Anecdotally, in my experience the Swiss are friendly, organized, and find joy in the finer points of complicated procedures.
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Jun 22, 2019 07:58
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I figure the myth of German efficiency comes from how they fought in two world wars with much of the world is arranged against them. If you hyperfocus on certain parts like America's industrial output, then it's crazy how Germany last so long. But there's a ton of factors and real life is full of too many details that matter. Also, mistakes were made.
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Jun 22, 2019 08:21
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Loezi posted:I just realized I have a fairly big gaps in my understanding of the Falklands, Korea and both Gulf Wars on the higher level. I know bits and pieces but haven't got a good grasp of the overall thing. To that end, I'd appreciate any recommendations on documentaries or documentary series. I have plenty of reading to do for work so preferably not, at least heavy, books. I watched this one from 1987 on the Falklands a few months back: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V887sYcmIAc I liked this bit from one of the Argentine soldiers involved in the opening stages of the war: quote:The Royal Marines lacked our motivation. I think the reason for our motivation was the cause we were defending. I want you to understand, we were defending something that was ours, they were simply following orders as professional soldiers. GotLag fucked around with this message at 10:28 on Jun 22, 2019 |
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Jun 22, 2019 10:21
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A lot of the POW escapes relied upon guards not being familiar enough with the documents to really question them; one of my favourites is the RN officer who made an escape attempt as a Bulgarian officer. While nobody in the camp knew what a Bulgarian naval uniform or documentation looked like, they reasoned that none of the Germans would be either, so they just made versions of the RN uniform, ID cards and so on in poorly-translated Bulgarian. It worked well enough that he was able to spend a night in a German military canteen without arousing any suspicion.
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Jun 22, 2019 10:23
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Xiahou Dun posted:I've wondered about this for ages. In as much as there is any basis in any of the silly national/cultural stereotypes (which yeah lol), it's blatantly untrue that Germans are particularly efficient. If it's anything it's that Germans are dogmatic and that kind of looks like efficiency if you never see how the sausage is made and just notice that they make the sausage ever so precisely. quote:(National/cultural stereotypes being anecdotal/dumb/generic/etc. taken as a given and this being more of a study in why the perception exists than actually thinking it's a real thing. We will ignore my love of beer, keeping a rote and highly specific procedure in all life and considering being 15 minutes early to be "on time". That's totally unrelated.) 
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Jun 22, 2019 10:32
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Cessna posted:Right, exactly. I just googled it, and it wasn't until 1968 that California started to put photos on Driver's Licenses. I don't think France got rid of their photo less, untraceable driving licences until 2013 or so.
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Jun 22, 2019 10:45
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GotLag posted:I liked this bit from one of the Argentine soldiers involved in the opening stages of the war: I mean, it's interesting to see the guy's viewpoint, but I'm pretty sure the marine thought the Falklands and its inhabitants were British, too. That was kind of the point.
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Jun 22, 2019 11:29
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"Our soldiers will fight better than theirs because we know we are right" is one of those recurring ideas that keep coming up.
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Jun 22, 2019 11:34
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feedmegin posted:I mean, it's interesting to see the guy's viewpoint, but I'm pretty sure the marine thought the Falklands and its inhabitants were British, too. That was kind of the point. Thank you, it had not occurred to me that the British may have felt the same way, with significantly more justification. GotLag fucked around with this message at 11:52 on Jun 22, 2019 |
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Jun 22, 2019 11:49
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HEY GUNS posted:no offence aphid_licker but why do the us and uk think you guys are efficient again Our one propaganda success :cryingG11:
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Jun 22, 2019 11:55
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HEY GUNS posted:it's the 1940s, american drivers licenses were pieces of typed paper tied to your steering column. matching a fingerprint meant MAILING it to a GIANT ROOM full of REAL PEOPLE who'd look at it for you and get back to you in WEEKS This is legitimately still the case with the Canadian Armed Forces.
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Jun 22, 2019 12:38
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This is a bit apropos of nothing, but I've been wondering for a while. In medieval Japanese helmets, what's the deal with those winged sections bending outward at the sides? They seem to be fairly common, though not universal. Did they have a practical purpose, or were they more ornamental in nature?
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Jun 22, 2019 14:02
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