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Why must they keep flying so close to the sun? 
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Jun 21, 2019 16:15
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Uh gently caress I'm not confident about this.
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Jun 21, 2019 16:16
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Doctor Who is mostly pretty progressive but it's ultimately floofy entertainment and is emphatically not the medium in which to discuss one of the worst crimes against humanity in history
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Jun 21, 2019 16:18
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Jun 21, 2019 16:18
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Lol, I watched that episode last night.
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Jun 21, 2019 16:19
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Is... is that confirmed by a reliable source? Screenshot seems to just be of a random Reddit post?
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Jun 21, 2019 16:21
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I would've been reflexively 'oh gently caress no' before this last season, but Demons of the Punjab did show that they do have it in them to do this intelligently and respectfully. I'm still not okay with it, if that's even what they're doing, but I'm not terrified of the result.
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Jun 21, 2019 16:22
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Even money on the Doctor visiting the Crucifixion by series 14.
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Jun 21, 2019 17:00
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Edward Mass posted:Even money on the Doctor visiting the Crucifixion by series 14. Could've sworn I read somewhere that the Eleventh Doctor was the one to take the last available room in Bethlehem at some point...
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Jun 21, 2019 18:06
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Cleretic posted:I would've been reflexively 'oh gently caress no' before this last season, but Demons of the Punjab did show that they do have it in them to do this intelligently and respectfully. Yeah. After the Rosa Parks and Partition episodes last year I'm less apprehensive about the show touching on this subject
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Jun 21, 2019 21:39
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Where the hell did this come from? People know how many scenes there's gonna be in an episode now?
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Jun 21, 2019 22:58
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Box of Bunnies posted:Yeah. After the Rosa Parks and Partition episodes last year I'm less apprehensive about the show touching on this subject Demons of the Punjab bodes well for this, the Rosa Parks episode definitely does not. If it's more along the lines of the latter, expect to have a great scene where the Doctor explains to an angry companion why they must not change anything or help anyone because it would damage The Web of Time (tm), but later mollifies them by taking them to a star named after Anne Frank. The Holocaust specifically is a difficult theme to work with in time travel because, of course, the moral choice is to do whatever you can to prevent it. But since even DW at its most revolutionary isn't going to undo the Holocaust (and that would be a terrible move for many reasons, though I'd love to see it explored in a non-serial story), you're going to have to broach the subject of why the Doctor isn't doing anything, and there isn't a satisfactory answer to that question. Like, this is a theme that would make me nervous in the hands of the best DW writer. But when done by the writer of The Battle of After last season I figured I was done with Chibnall's Doctor Who, but this seems like it'll be too horrible to look away.
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Jun 22, 2019 22:42
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Rochallor posted:Demons of the Punjab bodes well for this, the Rosa Parks episode definitely does not. If it's more along the lines of the latter, expect to have a great scene where the Doctor explains to an angry companion why they must not change anything or help anyone because it would damage The Web of Time (tm), but later mollifies them by taking them to a star named after Anne Frank. it's been this long and my first thought about that episode name is still "Orms by gore".
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Jun 22, 2019 22:48
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Barry Foster posted:Doctor Who is mostly pretty progressive but it's ultimately floofy entertainment and is emphatically not the medium in which to discuss one of the worst crimes against humanity in history I mean, they did an episode on American segregation last season. And the Partition of India - as mentioned, Demons of the Punjab was a great episode, for me it was one of the standouts of the season, and it was discussing a horrific period in history in which the British Empire had direct, and awful, culpability, which still has great geopolitical resonance today. So many died as a result of Mountbatten's line-drawing, and Doctor Who actually did a great job of educating viewers about that atrocity while treating it with respect. Honestly I think it's probably good to talk about the Holocaust in all sorts of media. It happened, we should remember it, and while it should always be treated with sensitivity and respect (and I hope this episode will do that), I also don't think we should remand mention of it to serious, highbrow media. A lot of people don't consume serious, highbrow media - they need to be reminded of it too.
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Jun 22, 2019 23:50
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Android Blues posted:Honestly I think it's probably good to talk about the Holocaust in all sorts of media. It happened, we should remember it, and while it should always be treated with sensitivity and respect (and I hope this episode will do that), I also don't think we should remand mention of it to serious, highbrow media. A lot of people don't consume serious, highbrow media - they need to be reminded of it too. I can't say I disagree, you make very good points. I guess I'm just concerned because I have sympathy with Adorno's 'no poetry after Auschwitz', while also recognising that treating it as a once-in-history unique occurrence lets things like Republicans attacking AOC for daring to make reference to it w/regard to current events anathema. It's just not a needle I trust the current DW team to thread (and frankly neither of the previous admins either)
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Jun 22, 2019 23:57
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I didn't know anything about Noor Inayat Khan so have just been reading up on her. Basically, she was a British agent assisting the Resistance in occupied France until she was captured and executed by the Nazis. Also note that Dachau was a concentration camp rather than an extermination camp like Auschwitz-Birkenau. Inayat Khan's death there was a summary execution, not being marched en-masse into a gas chamber. If the rumour turns out to be true, I expect the episode would be a personal biography of Noor Inayat Khan and/or generally about the Special Operations Executive and the French Resistance instead of being focused on the Holocaust. It's still incredibly risky and I'd rather Doctor Who keep well clear of the subject, but if they do go there I'm cautiously optimistic they can pull it off.
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Jun 23, 2019 00:02
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Bit late on this, but I'm sad to see Paul Darrow go - I've never seen Blake's 7, but I did see him play Vimes in a production of Guards! Guards! one time and he was great.
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Jun 23, 2019 07:15
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Paul.Power posted:Bit late on this, but I'm sad to see Paul Darrow go - I've never seen Blake's 7, but I did see him play Vimes in a production of Guards! Guards! one time and he was great. The entire series of Blake's 7 is uploaded to YouTube if you want to check it out. A lot of it holds up surprisingly well, although the no-budget SFX are either something you can deal with, or not.
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Jun 23, 2019 13:36
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evenworse username posted:The entire series of Blake's 7 is uploaded to YouTube if you want to check it out. Well if anyone is posting in this thread...  I tell people to look on stuff like B7 and old Doctor Who, hell even TOS, as like a stage play. It's not going to be entirely realistic with amazing lifelike SFX and expensive sets that take you there. It's about the acting.
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Jun 23, 2019 15:56
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Paul.Power posted:Bit late on this, but I'm sad to see Paul Darrow go - I've never seen Blake's 7, but I did see him play Vimes in a production of Guards! Guards! one time and he was great. Always glad for an opportunity to post this again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWHLU8fwi80
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Jun 23, 2019 21:28
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Astroman posted:Well if anyone is posting in this thread... The story for Blake's 7 is that the BBC gave the ok for the show to replace a contemporary (set in the 70s) police drama, but told Terry Nation that the budget wasn't going to change.
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Jun 23, 2019 23:44
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i feel like if you get into old bbc sci-fi for the acting you're not going to get much out of it either
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Jun 24, 2019 00:11
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I feel like in general "high budget" for the BBC in the 70s was the shocking extravagance of popping open a can of actual filmstock.
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Jun 24, 2019 02:05
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Wait a second... you mean somebody from the union popping open the can of filmstock, right? 
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Jun 24, 2019 02:13
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Jerusalem posted:Wait a second... you mean somebody from the union popping open the can of filmstock, right? Why do you think we lost Shada?
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Jun 24, 2019 03:44
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Barry Foster posted:Doctor Who is mostly pretty progressive but it's ultimately floofy entertainment and is emphatically not the medium in which to discuss one of the worst crimes against humanity in history On the other hand the Daleks were basically Nazis. edit: Since we're talking about union stuff, I love that the TOS Enterprise bridge apparently could have had a lot more animated screens, but the union rules apparently meant they couldn't automate a bunch of them.
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Jun 24, 2019 04:30
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Senor Tron posted:On the other hand the Daleks were basically Nazis. Plus, Rory already punched out Hitler. I mean, where do you go from there?
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Jun 24, 2019 04:51
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Rochallor posted:Demons of the Punjab bodes well for this, the Rosa Parks episode definitely does not. If it's more along the lines of the latter, expect to have a great scene where the Doctor explains to an angry companion why they must not change anything or help anyone because it would damage The Web of Time (tm), but later mollifies them by taking them to a star named after Anne Frank. I mean, the Rosa Parks episode is absolutely heavy handed in how it depicts American racism of the time and then tells the audience "things aren't as overtly bad as that anymore, but people like our companions still experience racism in modern Britain in this and that way which they discuss" (which, looking at the reaction to the episode by certain segments of the audience, was a necessary way to do things), but I don't really think "the Doctor insists that her companions observe and preserve human history rather than completely upend it then demonstrates that, while things aren't where we need them to be yet, progress has been made in the time since by taking them to see an asteroid that was named after the historical figure of the episode that actually exists in real life" is really a bad way for a pop sci-fi show with a vague "teach kids about history sometimes" remit to handle such material. They didn't shy away from what things were like at the time (flippin' Emmett Till was acknowledged in Doctor Who in 2018), they didn't shy away from how things are bad in similar ways in our current time, they didn't have the Doctor and her friends as white saviours turning up to make things better for the black people of the time, they basically handled it as well as they could have. Certainly better than I think any of us expected when the set photos of Montgomery busses first leaked out. And like, "the Doctor explains to an angry companion why they must not change anything or help anyone because it would damage The Web of Time (tm), but later mollifies them by taking them to [see that things slowly get better]" has been part of the show since 1966 with The Massacre, so I understand doubting it being handled well with events that occured within living memory, but that's part of what the show has been for fifty years Box of Bunnies fucked around with this message at 05:08 on Jun 24, 2019 |
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Jun 24, 2019 04:58
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Box of Bunnies posted:(flippin' Emmett Till was acknowledged in Doctor Who in 2018) This still blows me away every time I think about it (I mean, as does the loving horrible crime itself).
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Jun 24, 2019 06:15
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Box of Bunnies posted:I mean, the Rosa Parks episode is absolutely heavy handed in how it depicts American racism of the time and then tells the audience "things aren't as overtly bad as that anymore, but people like our companions still experience racism in modern Britain in this and that way which they discuss" (which, looking at the reaction to the episode by certain segments of the audience, was a necessary way to do things) The episode does do a good job of portraying American racism, and there is a tiny bit about how everything still isn't hunky-dory today, but that just begs the question of why there isn't an episode about modern-day bigotry. Regardless, the bigger problem with the episode is that is has the same structure that the latter half of the episode is under the impression that the most interesting story to tell about Rosa Parks is managing the number of people who are going to get on a bus. I can't even articulate how bizarre of a decision this is. Not only does it cut completely against the story of Rosa Parks, even if she was just a woman who got fed up with standing on a bus, that's still not a good story to tell! Box of Bunnies posted:, but I don't really think "the Doctor insists that her companions observe and preserve human history rather than completely upend it then demonstrates that, while things aren't where we need them to be yet, progress has been made in the time since by taking them to see an asteroid that was named after the historical figure of the episode that actually exists in real life" is really a bad way for a pop sci-fi show with a vague "teach kids about history sometimes" remit to handle such material. This I totally disagree with. "Rosa Parks got an asteroid named after her" is such a baffling ending to an episode it's almost funny. The only worse thing in the episode is "but America had a black President," which, given that Obama made half the country so mad that they elected Donald Trump, is not quite the clincher to an argument it should be. I don't dislike Rosa. It's about as good as a Rosa Parks episode you could make in the Chibnall era, which is an indictment of the Chibnall era. Box of Bunnies posted:And like, "the Doctor explains to an angry companion why they must not change anything or help anyone because it would damage The Web of Time (tm), but later mollifies them by taking them to [see that things slowly get better]" has been part of the show since 1966 with The Massacre, so I understand doubting it being handled well with events that occured within living memory, but that's part of what the show has been for fifty years This I get, it's just the specific circumstances of the Holocaust that would make a scene like this totally unpalatable. Voting Floater pointed out above that if the episode is about Khan it would be set in a concentration camp, not a death camp, which would probably work by the Chibnall era's definition of "work." It's not that you can't do Nazi stories; there have been several good DW stories set in Nazi Germany. It's the Holocaust itself that is too difficult for most writers to navigate, and Chibnall wrote The Ghost Monument.
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Jun 24, 2019 06:20
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Rochallor posted:I don't dislike Rosa. It's about as good as a Rosa Parks episode you could make in the Chibnall era, which is an indictment of the Chibnall era. And yet I still think I'd trust a Chibnall era Rosa Parks episode more than I would have Davies or Moffat era. I can only picture a Davies-era Rosa Parks episode involve Parks personally fighting against some absurd alien. And I can't picture Moffat doing an episode about Rosa parks at all. Chibnall's run so far seems to have a genuine respect for the people involved in historical events, and that counts for a lot.
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Jun 24, 2019 06:36
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Senor Tron posted:edit: Since we're talking about union stuff, I love that the TOS Enterprise bridge apparently could have had a lot more animated screens, but the union rules apparently meant they couldn't automate a bunch of them. Barry Norman (yes, that Barry Norman) wrote a comedy novel based on his experiences in Hollywood, and it included the revelation that (at the time) whenever a British film crew was shooting interviews on set in an LA studio, union rules meant they had to pay for an equivalent union "ghost crew" to sit around doing nothing while they worked.
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Jun 24, 2019 07:52
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My favorite story is by Tom on one of the DVD extras. They did a week's worth of filming on a beach, and every morning Tom would arrive and a guy would be sitting on a deckchair and would greet him. Every evening when Tom left, that same guy was still there and he'd wave goodnight as Tom left. Finally Tom asked the director who this guy was since he only ever saw him hanging around on the deckchair, never doing anything, and he said,"Oh that's the Union guy, he's the only one who is allowed to turn on the equipment in the morning and the only one who is allowed to turn it off at night."
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Jun 24, 2019 08:23
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Rochallor posted:The episode does do a good job of portraying American racism, and there is a tiny bit about how everything still isn't hunky-dory today, but that just begs the question of why there isn't an episode about modern-day bigotry. Regardless, the bigger problem with the episode is that is has the same structure that the latter half of the episode is under the impression that the most interesting story to tell about Rosa Parks is managing the number of people who are going to get on a bus. I can't even articulate how bizarre of a decision this is. Not only does it cut completely against the story of Rosa Parks, even if she was just a woman who got fed up with standing on a bus, that's still not a good story to tell! I guess where we're just fundamentally disagreeing is that I feel like as long as Doctor Who can properly demonstrate the horrors of the period it's visiting, and ideally tie that into modern issues in some way, while allowing the actual historical events to play out mostly as-was with any sci-fi elements being tangential to the true history rather than directly "causing" or interacting with it in any way, then that's the best you could hope for from Dr. Who. Like, I understand that the holocaust is singly horrific in living history, and that if you try to approach it wrong you wind up with the infamous Jerry Lewis Clown movie, but I think that it has been long enough, and that the fascist resurgence in modern times as seen in the use of concentration camps on the American border and in Australian refugee "detention centers" makes it relevant enough that something as straightforward as Rosa's "Dr. Who and her friends see the atrocity play out and compare it to modern times" is not only harmless but honestly kind of necessary. We're beyond the point where punching Hitler and shoving him in the cupboard to make a mockery of him and his ideology works. Box of Bunnies fucked around with this message at 10:12 on Jun 24, 2019 |
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Jun 24, 2019 10:09
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Edward Mass posted:Plus, Rory already punched out Hitler. I mean, where do you go from there? I swear to god, if Thirteen walks past a cupboard and hears banging and angry German coming out of it...
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Jun 24, 2019 15:13
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I think doing an episode in that setting was a good idea and they did handle the issues mostly well, but making it a TARDIS gang meet a historical figure episode all about getting on the bus was a mistake and undercut a lot of the good stuff they did.
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Jun 24, 2019 15:27
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I realize that I'm comparing apples and oranges here, but: if goddamn Stanley Kubrick didn't feel he could do justice to the horrors of the Holocaust in a feature-length film, I honestly don't have high hopes for Chris Chibnall doing so during the running time of a Doctor Who episode.
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Jun 24, 2019 17:33
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https://twitter.com/DWMtweets/status/1143206827963891713 If I'm not mistaken, I think this is first time Sean's given an interview to DWM.
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Jun 24, 2019 18:46
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The best comparison I can think of for using the Holocaust in floofy sci-fi is the cold open in the original X-Men movie, where young Magneto rips the gates off Auschwitz. IMO that's possibly the best scene in any superhero movie and did a perfect job of depicting the Holocaust as a narrative element without either making a mockery of it or having it overwhelm the rest of the movie. And again, if the episode is about Noor Inayat Khan then the story would really just be Holocaust-adjacent. It would most likely just be one scene at the end which would play out exactly like the denoument of Demons of the Punjab. Heck, if anything it might draw criticism for not having enough Holocaust in it.
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Jun 24, 2019 19:49
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I keep thinking about J.R.R. Tolkin and C.S. Lewis. J.R.R. claimed that LotR wasn't a direct parallel to the political climate of his times but obviously it seeped its way into his work. C.S. Lewis' work, however, was much more on the nose, obviously, with its heavy-handed metaphors. I feel like last season was much more Lewis-y.
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Jun 24, 2019 21:49
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