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Len posted:I hope Shore Leave is still as fantastic as I remember and not cringy and awful of course that’s largely due to his exhaustive skin care regimen
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Jun 23, 2019 18:39
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Skratchez posted:You can other pedophiles and wish them away to superjail if you like, won't fix anything. Do the math, then go gently caress yourself.
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Jun 23, 2019 18:43
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Fatty Crabcakes posted:I knew one. When I was a child. You and me both. I still have the stamp collection. I'm not necessarily saying they're redeemable. Just that it might be nice. Not gonna quote Mister #metoo CK
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Jun 23, 2019 18:51
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Skratchez posted:A redemptive arc for a pedophile is pretty progressive. It really wasn't redemptive and a lot of the jokes were tone-deaf, like the very idea of a pedophile existing was supposed to be funny. Like it wasn't the worst thing in history but it definitely keeps the show from aging well. It's the kind-of topic where treating it with anything short of total seriousness is just too high an ask of the audience. Len posted:I hope Shore Leave is still as fantastic as I remember and not cringy and awful He is but there's some subtext to the joke which, while well-intentioned, definitely toes a line. The entire joke is that Shore Leave is the most flamboyant, stereotypically "out and proud" 24/7 Pride Parade type of guy circa 1994 but is also one of the most competent badasses in the entire show. That joke still works because of a really strong vocal performance and strong framing, but it still has the air of that Willem Dafoe gag from Boondock Saints where his lover tries to cuddle him and he says "don't be such a fag." It's still rooted in really deep-seated perceptions that masculine = good/worthy of respect and feminine/queer = bad/weak. Again it isn't the worst thing in the world, but it definitely dates the show.
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Jun 23, 2019 22:30
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Skratchez posted:A redemptive arc for a pedophile is pretty progressive. hatred's pedophilia was caused by the venture equivalent of supersoldier serum, so they were able to cure it also with a serum reversal or something. it was quietly dealt with once the pedophilia jokes got old mind the walrus posted:He is but there's some subtext to the joke which, while well-intentioned, definitely toes a line. The entire joke is that Shore Leave is the most flamboyant, stereotypically "out and proud" 24/7 Pride Parade type of guy circa 1994 but is also one of the most competent badasses in the entire show. That joke still works because of a really strong vocal performance and strong framing, but it still has the air of that Willem Dafoe gag from Boondock Saints where his lover tries to cuddle him and he says "don't be such a fag." It's still rooted in really deep-seated perceptions that masculine = good/worthy of respect and feminine/queer = bad/weak. Again it isn't the worst thing in the world, but it definitely dates the show. it's because when they introduced shore leave as a gag character it's when they were making comparison to how all the different costumed gi joe characters were a lot like the village people, when you think about it. and then continued because he was a very fun character and a good foil for brock samson, where they are both extremely masculine combat guys but shore leave is exactly as homosexual as brock is heterosexual Mr. Fall Down Terror has a new favorite as of 23:19 on Jun 23, 2019 |
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Jun 23, 2019 23:16
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luxury handset posted:hatred's pedophilia was caused by the venture equivalent of supersoldier serum, so they were able to cure it also with a serum reversal or something. it was quietly dealt with once the pedophilia jokes got old quote:it's because when they introduced shore leave as a gag character it's when they were making comparison to how all the different costumed gi joe characters were a lot like the village people, when you think about it. and then continued because he was a very fun character and a good foil for brock samson, where they are both extremely masculine combat guys but shore leave is exactly as homosexual as brock is heterosexual  "Dude I got the joke. I explained myself thoroughly.
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Jun 23, 2019 23:21
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i'm not intending this to come off as hostile as you seem to be reading it 
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Jun 23, 2019 23:23
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luxury handset posted:it's because when they introduced shore leave as a gag character it's when they were making comparison to how all the different costumed gi joe characters were a lot like the village people, when you think about it. and then continued because he was a very fun character and a good foil for brock samson, where they are both extremely masculine combat guys but shore leave is exactly as homosexual as brock is heterosexual You do realize there are people just as "heterosexual" as Brock who are gay.
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Jun 23, 2019 23:37
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Absurd Alhazred posted:You do realize there are people just as "heterosexual" as Brock who are gay. I have to say that the pride parades are extremely toned down from what they were in the 90s. I think this is progress just in the sense that you don't have to be all rippling and oily in light bondage gear to get the point across? Either way https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQKJhdhJvGg
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Jun 23, 2019 23:44
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Skratchez posted:A redemptive arc for a pedophile is pretty progressive. British sitcom 'Rev' had a storyline where a convicted paedophile wanted to work doing admin at the (Anglican) church. The vicar agonised over whether to allow it, considering he'd served his time and would have no contact at all with children, but in the end the congregation decided to openly revolt and he had to tell the guy he couldn't hire him. It was handled fairly well. Not like the plot point earlier where a creepy charismatic movement was chased away from the church by one of the regular parishioners touching a lady without her consent! That aged horribly the instant it was written. I like that show but yikes.
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Jun 23, 2019 23:51
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One thing to add is that the Sgt. Hatred jokes weren't particularly well liked when they were first airing. It was one of the few hard misses I remember. The episode where he gets stuck at the kid's movie had a goon comment saying that it was an okay episode, only if it was putting an end to the pedophile jokes. I think there were a few more, but that was the high water mark. It's kind of the yin and yang of Venture Brothers. They have a lot of fun callbacks and continuity, but that means that when they decide to bring Sgt. Hatred back they included the little background joke from season one of Hatred being the only villain who had gotten creepy with the boys. Except they didn't think about how hosed and unfunny it'd be.
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Jun 24, 2019 00:54
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Absurd Alhazred posted:You do realize there are people just as "heterosexual" as Brock who are gay. show me a gay dude with a mullet, i'll wait
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Jun 24, 2019 01:10
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luxury handset posted:show me a gay dude with a mullet, i'll wait 
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Jun 24, 2019 01:12
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drat
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Jun 24, 2019 01:19
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luxury handset posted:show me a gay dude with a mullet, i'll wait Perhaps you're familiar with Joe Exotic?  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc-_7RCFArM
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Jun 24, 2019 01:38
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Your first mistake was assuming mullets weren’t cool.
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Jun 24, 2019 20:51
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Skratchez posted:You can other pedophiles and wish them away to superjail if you like, won't fix anything Life on the outside ain't what it used to be
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Jun 24, 2019 22:13
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RBA Starblade posted:Life on the outside ain't what it used to be Reminds me of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. The old dude (Wonko the sane?) who ran the universe lived in a place he called Outside the Asylum. It was a very small place but he had his cat for consultations about important universe issues.
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Jun 24, 2019 22:20
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Skratchez posted:Reminds me of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. The old dude (Wonko the sane?) who ran the universe lived in a place he called Outside the Asylum. Wonko the Sane was a different dude. The Ruler of the Universe's whole thing was that he only believes what his senses directly observe so everything else is theoretical, which (supposedly) made him a perfectly objective arbitrator and decision-maker.
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Jun 24, 2019 22:56
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Skratchez posted:Reminds me of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. The old dude (Wonko the sane?) who ran the universe lived in a place he called Outside the Asylum. Vincent Van Goatse posted:The Ruler of the Universe's whole thing was that he only believes what his senses directly observe so everything else is theoretical, which (supposedly) made him a perfectly objective arbitrator and decision-maker. TV Episodes that did age well. Cause these days, those philosophies both look very attractive. (Zarquon, I need to relax in a beach house)
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Jun 25, 2019 08:33
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Wonko the Sane was a different dude. The Ruler of the Universe's whole thing was that he only believes what his senses directly observe so everything else is theoretical, which (supposedly) made him a perfectly objective arbitrator and decision-maker. Also he had no desire for power, or any material wealth beyond regular meals and simple comfort, so was completely unmotivated to abuse systems for personal gain. He only answered questions about ruling the universe to be polite.
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Jun 26, 2019 00:41
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Shut up Meg posted:TV Episodes that did age well. The Hitchhiker's series has aged remarkably well, especially the first two radio shows which are from the 1970s BBC, home of the world's greatest Jimmy Savile.
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Jun 26, 2019 00:52
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Skratchez posted:I have to say that the pride parades are extremely toned down from what they were in the 90s. Hmm, yeah, this is a bad take. That stuff went on at pride parades because that was always their point: to take the things that are widely-considered marks of shame and to fight against that perception with pride. The increasing "friendliness" of modern pride celebrations is a pretty big point of contention in the LGBT community. I mean, I pretty much never see anyone complaining about cheerleaders or oiled-up chicks doing a charity carwash. Maybe the sexism of that concept gets criticized, sure, but nobody's ever like "eww! A woman in a sexualized context! How gross, hide the children in a basement!" They sure as hell do that for gay dudes, though. Anyway I'm not a straight person and I don't think they were homophobic with Shore Leave or anything. The intention was to make a joke on the bigoted perception that gay dudes aren't masculine - and because they leaned entirely on that perception to make the joke, it comes off kind of poorly in retrospect, but it's not because they wanted to insult people. I'm certainly not offended by Shore Leave, he's funny and cool. I do disagree with the perception of Brock as "big tough hetero guy" and Shore Leave as "big tough gay guy," though. Brock is clearly just the standard "big tough guy" character, it's got nothing to do with his sexuality, it's just assumed that type of character is always straight. Brock is straight, of course, but it's not really a cornerstone of his character like being gay is for Shore Leave.
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Jun 28, 2019 19:50
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Casey Finnigan posted:I do disagree with the perception of Brock as "big tough hetero guy" and Shore Leave as "big tough gay guy," though. Brock is clearly just the standard "big tough guy" character, it's got nothing to do with his sexuality, it's just assumed that type of character is always straight. Brock is straight, of course, but it's not really a cornerstone of his character like being gay is for Shore Leave. he was rampagingly hetero in the early seasons when he was still portrayed as a hair trigger murder machine. in the first episode he gets bored and dismisses doc so he can go off with some mexican prostitutes. in the second episode he has howling fightsex with lt. baldovich almost immediately, because he is bored with the space mission. and part of the whole questionable joke at the heart of molotov cocktease's character is that he wants to kill her, but can't (because she is equally good in combat) and he wants to gently caress her, but can't (because she wears a chastity device). as the show matured they toned down brock's aggression in both sex and violence but imo early brock was just as flagrantly straight as shore leave is flagrantly gay. it's just that there's far more diversity in how straight men are allowed to be near camp levels of straight without it being deemed "in your face" like when gay men do it like of course gay men can like muscle cars, led zeppelin, and seedy strip clubs, but those are all coded as hetero macho guy activities e: i guess the better way to say it is that brock and shore leave are the same guy, the same extremely jacked special agent who relishes personal combat, except at different extremes of the kinsey scale and coded as such Mr. Fall Down Terror has a new favorite as of 20:51 on Jun 28, 2019 |
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Jun 28, 2019 20:38
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i always liked this scene https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NpsXS8bnHE
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Jun 28, 2019 20:44
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haha yeah early brock is way different from later brock his first scene in the first episode, extremely macho and kind of sexual https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwLA9ba5UqU and then there's this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UwDT7MDD0I
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Jun 28, 2019 21:15
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Casey Finnigan posted:
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Jun 28, 2019 21:54
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MrUnderbridge posted:You must not live near a lot of fundamentalists. They absolutely do that. They don't want little Hezekiah to get tickles in his dangus. It’s actually kind of cool that religious fundamentalists lost the culture war, although it’s obviously much worse for everyone that reactionary capitalists won.
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Jun 28, 2019 22:09
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MrUnderbridge posted:You must not live near a lot of fundamentalists. They absolutely do that. They don't want little Hezekiah to get tickles in his dangus. Well, hey, if they're gonna freak out unreasonably about everyone, at least it's consistent. Not bigoted against gay folks* if you just think every single person in the world should be a eunuch. * Yes I know fundamentalists are actually homophobic as hell  Anyway to talk about Venture Bros some more, I think it's way worse to have a villainous character that's ambiguously coded as gay, like in 90s Disney movies, than to have a character that embodies gay stereotypes but is portrayed positively and heroically, like Shore Leave. Yeah, he's like a total caricature, and it's overboard. Plus, if society ever gets to a point where most people don't associate a gay man with weakness, their attempt to buck the stereotype will fall flat - people are gonna be like "why did they make this military guy so campy for no reason?" But, I dunno, at the end of the day he's one of the cooler characters in the fictional universe, and far less weird and hosed up than most other people on the show, anyway. It's not the dream gay character representation from heaven but for a show that started in the mid-2000s where every other character has massive psychological issues, it's fine for what it is. The gay couple in Mission Hill was very well-written. That was a great show. Casey Finnigan has a new favorite as of 22:57 on Jun 28, 2019 |
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Jun 28, 2019 22:36
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in a world where there's all kinds of ridiculous concept-personalities running around in absurd costumes, a guy who is tom of finland's take on james bond is relatively toned down imo
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Jun 28, 2019 23:22
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Brock's characterisation is a bit interesting because it's actually acknowledged by the show as a recent change- flashbacks generally revert to his stoic disinterested murder machine characterisation, and imply that the Venture Bros have died several dozen times because he's too busy getting his fight/gently caress on, while the less hypercompetent but more rounded Sgt Hatred actually does a better job protecting the boys and gets a higher body count of the Monarch's henchman, because he actually uses guns and advanced tactics. (That said, Brock CAN be very intelligent and resourceful, he just usually doesn't bother) Shore Leave is also primarily a parody of Shipwreck from GI Joe and how campy that franchise was in general. Hell, the writers mentioned they have a hard time coming up with names for OSI members because it's very difficult to find horrible puns that haven't already been taken. (hence why most OSI codenames are more bad taste ones that wouldn't pass muster for a children's franchise) Antifa Turkeesian posted:It’s actually kind of cool that religious fundamentalists lost the culture war, although it’s obviously much worse for everyone that reactionary capitalists won. The fundamentalists aren't going down without a fight, usually doing so by teaming up with the reactionary capitalists and fascists and co-opting progressive language.
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Jun 29, 2019 05:03
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Never realized how many anti-climate change episodes of South Park there were.
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Jun 30, 2019 02:24
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Gaunab posted:Never realized how many anti-climate change episodes of South Park there were. It's not often that South Park feels the need to apologize for South Park, but they've actually written episodes walking back a lot of that of late. I believe the latest season had basically a 'ManBearPig is real' episode.
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Jun 30, 2019 02:43
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Parker and Stone can apologize by killing themselves if they’re feeling guilty.
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Jun 30, 2019 02:48
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:Parker and Stone can apologize by killing themselves if they’re feeling guilty. On the other hand the whole last season was basically "we were wrong about a lot stuff and we hosed up" and I think it's good for their audience to see that even if most people choose to ignore it 🤷🏿♀️
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Jun 30, 2019 03:07
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This is kind of a tangent, but I've been going through all the fifties and sixties-era TV on Amazon Prime the last couple weeks, and it's interesting to see how much society and personal interactions have changed, obviously, but also how much hasn't changed at all, and how many sixties sitcom scripts could be reused in modern sitcoms today without updating anything except the outfits. It's also interesting how you can see some society changing over the course of some of the longer running shows, like there's an episode in the first season of The Andy Griffith Show from 1960 where Andy's girlfriend threatens to run for city council and Andy and basically ever male character on the show (including Opie!) are shocked and appalled that a woman would run for city council. Then they do a somewhat similar premise (but not a direct sequel) seven seasons later in 1966 where Aunt Bee is going to run for city council and asks Andy something like "what, you don't think women should be involved in politics?" and Andy's reaction is "no, no, I get it." I definitely wouldn't watch most of these shows all the way through, but skipping around has been fun, and a few of them are still pretty entertaining (again, sitcoms in the style of How I Met Your Mother or Frasier have apparently not evolved much over the decades in their setups and jokes.)
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Jun 30, 2019 03:13
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Koalas March posted:On the other hand the whole last season was basically "we were wrong about a lot stuff and we hosed up" and I think it's good for their audience to see that even if most people choose to ignore it 🤷🏿♀️ Have they apologized for single-handedly melding antisemitism with “ironic” nihilism ready-made to metastasize across the internet? That’s probably their biggest crime, just above global warming denial and using a black character as their mouthpiece to decry hate crimes as a concept.
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Jun 30, 2019 03:27
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IIRC they eventually had Cartman completely stop having offensive opinions and just have him being lovely in other ways.
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Jun 30, 2019 03:48
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muscles like this! posted:IIRC they eventually had Cartman completely stop having offensive opinions and just have him being lovely in other ways. That is laudable, but I kind of feel that the damage is too great barring something like them donating all their assets to the SPLC.
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Jun 30, 2019 04:20
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Randallteal posted:This is kind of a tangent, but I've been going through all the fifties and sixties-era TV on Amazon Prime the last couple weeks, and it's interesting to see how much society and personal interactions have changed, obviously, but also how much hasn't changed at all, and how many sixties sitcom scripts could be reused in modern sitcoms today without updating anything except the outfits. It's also interesting how you can see some society changing over the course of some of the longer running shows, like there's an episode in the first season of The Andy Griffith Show from 1960 where Andy's girlfriend threatens to run for city council and Andy and basically ever male character on the show (including Opie!) are shocked and appalled that a woman would run for city council. Then they do a somewhat similar premise (but not a direct sequel) seven seasons later in 1966 where Aunt Bee is going to run for city council and asks Andy something like "what, you don't think women should be involved in politics?" and Andy's reaction is "no, no, I get it." I definitely wouldn't watch most of these shows all the way through, but skipping around has been fun, and a few of them are still pretty entertaining (again, sitcoms in the style of How I Met Your Mother or Frasier have apparently not evolved much over the decades in their setups and jokes.) Alas, the episode ended with Aunt Bee dropping from race upon realizing that Howard Sprague was much more qualified after he schooled her in a public debate. Some scripts of The Andy Griffith Show could carry over, mainly those dealing with Opie becoming a young adult, and those that are peak Barney Fife. Dig further and there are a lot of episodes that wouldn't look good if played now like they were then. Andy Taylor's relationships with women were pretty problematic.
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Jun 30, 2019 04:47
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