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Shear Modulus posted:thats been the line for ages, the iraq and libyan invasions were sold as humanitarian interventions I remember a bunch of recruiting TV ads were like, "tacticool people loading a plane and getting ready for an IMPORTANT MISSION, footage of stuff falling from planes like bombs, camera zooms in and you see that it's boxes labeled GOOD STUFF FOR SAD POOR PEOPLE, DEFINITELY NOT BOMBS" I guess I kinda hoped most people didn't buy that but I guess not 
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Jun 27, 2019 22:36
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a line i remember the isolationist republican faction saying for a while that teump tapped into in 2016 was that we need to stop spending so much money on iraq and afghanistan (usually referring to the "nation building" projects) and take care of our own problems first
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Jun 27, 2019 23:08
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Shear Modulus posted:a line i remember the isolationist republican faction saying for a while that teump tapped into in 2016 was that we need to stop spending so much money on iraq and afghanistan (usually referring to the "nation building" projects) and take care of our own problems first I have been pleasantly surprised by the number of conservative family/friends who are extremely pissed about the wars we're in, and the wars the politicians are wanting to get us in.
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Jun 27, 2019 23:28
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while I was talking about how absolutely terrible an idea a war with Iran would be, my dad looked at me confused and stated that we’d easily crush them in a conventional war. neocons are gonna neocon
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Jun 27, 2019 23:33
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Senor Dog posted:while I was talking about how absolutely terrible an idea a war with Iran would be, my dad looked at me confused and stated that we’d easily crush them in a conventional war. Well, that's an objective fact though. The real question would be does your dad want the war, or think it's ok to go to war? Does he think syria/libya/etc are cool?
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Jun 27, 2019 23:42
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spacetoaster posted:Well, that's an objective fact though. reminder that the us lost to vietnam
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Jun 27, 2019 23:48
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Shame Boy posted:Oh that's much better, turns out Americans aren't dumb and ignorant, they just think our military is a loving charity sent in to help poor countries, nothing to be worried about there!!!  spacetoaster posted:Well, that's an objective fact though. It's likely the US would win but Iran has an actual real military and afaik the last time the US did war game simulations the red team (Iran) kicked blue team (USA) in the jaw immediately and killed like a whole carrier group by just overwhelming it with missiles and lovely boats that don't show up on US radar. ~20,000 sailors simulated dead iirc. Even if we "win," wow what a loving bloodbath it is going to be. e: quote:Red received an ultimatum from Blue, essentially a surrender document, demanding a response within 24 hours. Thus warned of Blue's approach, Red used a fleet of small boats to determine the position of Blue's fleet by the second day of the exercise. In a preemptive strike, Red launched a massive salvo of cruise missiles that overwhelmed the Blue forces' electronic sensors and destroyed sixteen warships. This included one aircraft carrier, ten cruisers and five of six amphibious ships. An equivalent success in a real conflict would have resulted in the deaths of over 20,000 service personnel. Soon after the cruise missile offensive, another significant portion of Blue's navy was "sunk" by an armada of small Red boats, which carried out both conventional and suicide attacks that capitalized on Blue's inability to detect them as well as expected. lmfao ee: quote:Meanwhile, Kernan received an urgent phone call from Luck: “Sir, Van Riper just slimed all of the ships.” Kernan recognized that this was bad news because it placed at risk JFCOM’s ability to fulfill the remaining live-fire, forced-entry component of the exercise — a central component of MC ’02. The actual forces were awaiting orders at Fort Bragg, off the coast of San Diego, and at the Fort Irwin National Training Center. Kernan recalled, “I didn’t have a lot of choice. I had to do the forcible entry piece.” He directed the white cell to simply refloat the virtual ships to the surface. just lmfao Moridin920 has issued a correction as of 00:06 on Jun 28, 2019 |
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Jun 27, 2019 23:59
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slippery doc posted:subway: we turn little boys into men  I thought it was an army ad
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Jun 27, 2019 23:59
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The modern US military actually winning a war? I'll believe it when I see it. It'll just end in a quagmire, and generals will do the usual finger-pointing about not enough support at the home front.
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Jun 28, 2019 00:02
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Peanut President posted:reminder that the us lost to vietnam Would you say it was a military loss, or a political loss? A guy asked me the other day if I felt we had "won" in Iraq. The answer if obviously a resounding NO. I think it was a stupid war for stupid reasons. But I can't really say that the actual military part was much of a failure. The only reason we didn't take Baghdad faster was because we had to keep waiting on fuel and bullets to catch up to us. It was pretty much a one sided slaughter, and even during the occupation any battle was pretty much a one sided slaughter as well. And I wonder if it was a loss to the people who got us into the war? It seems they achieved the real objective, which consisted of enriching themselves. Moridin920 posted:
They said the exact kind of thing in 91 and 03. We were told to expect 30% casulties, minimum. Literally had some idiot tell us to look left, look right, while in formation and were told that one, or both, of the people we just looked at would not be coming home. Then, when the fighting actually started, it wasn't anything like that. spacetoaster has issued a correction as of 00:09 on Jun 28, 2019 |
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Jun 28, 2019 00:06
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spacetoaster posted:Would you say it was a military loss, or a political loss? Both, although to be fair to the US military they had their hands tied quite a bit. quote:And I wonder if it was a loss to the people who got us into the war? It seems they achieved the real objective, which consisted of enriching themselves. Yeah true but at the same time Vietnam is a ML country so not all the objectives.
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Jun 28, 2019 00:06
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Moridin920 posted:
Oh yeah I remember reading about a Navy project or study or something that was doing a bunch of simulations about the whole Eve Online Goonswarm strategy of "lots of people attack a capital ship in small cheap boats" and came to the conclusion that "oh gently caress that would actually work really good and we don't know how to defend against it" so then they shut down the project to save face.
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Jun 28, 2019 00:08
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A war is when two armies are fighting. Iraq was not a war.
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Jun 28, 2019 00:12
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spacetoaster posted:Would you say it was a military loss, or a political loss? One thing I just realized is we got way better at killing people since Vietnam. Like during Vietnam we killed 400,000 VC's and 600,000 civilians, but lost 50,000+ Americans and over 250,000+ South Vietnamese, and ultimately had to give up. Meanwhile in Iraq we killed like 400,000 to 600,000 people total but only lost ~3,700 soldiers
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Jun 28, 2019 00:14
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spacetoaster posted:Would you say it was a military loss, or a political loss? Absolutely both. The US Army got its rear end kicked and we had to retreat in defeat.
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Jun 28, 2019 00:14
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Taintrunner posted:A war is when two armies are fighting. To be fair they did have an actual army for like, 5 minutes, right at the beginning.
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Jun 28, 2019 00:15
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Shame Boy posted:One thing I just realized is we got way better at killing people since Vietnam. Like during Vietnam we killed 400,000 VC's and 600,000 civilians, but lost 50,000+ Americans and over 250,000+ South Vietnamese, and ultimately had to give up. Meanwhile in Iraq we killed like 400,000 to 600,000 people total but only lost ~3,700 soldiers Should include PMC numbers, nice way to reduce official casualty numbers.
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Jun 28, 2019 00:17
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How long will it take to capture Baghdad? 2 days Will Saddam be killed? Yes Total Iraqi civillian casualties: 500 dead Total military casualties Iraq: 3000 dead Total military casualties U.S.: 15 dead Will the Iraqi army regulars hold the lines? No Will the Republican Guard fight to the end? No Will chem/bio weapons be used on invading troops?: Yes Will Saddam launch attacks on the Kurds? Yes Will Saddam launch attacks on Israel? No -If yes; will Isreal retaliate harshly? Yes Will Saddam sacrifice Baghdad (gas/nuke it)? No Will the Kurds make a grab for independence? Yes Will Iran do anything silly like try for land? Yes Will Saddam burn the oil fields? Yes How long will the US be occupying Iraq? ~15 years Will the Iraq war catalyze increased terrorism in America?No In the long run, will this war be good or bad for the world? Good
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Jun 28, 2019 00:18
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Shame Boy posted:One thing I just realized is we got way better at killing people since Vietnam. Like during Vietnam we killed 400,000 VC's and 600,000 civilians, but lost 50,000+ Americans and over 250,000+ South Vietnamese, and ultimately had to give up. Meanwhile in Iraq we killed like 400,000 to 600,000 people total but only lost ~3,700 soldiers The new body armor. A guy in my unit got shot right in the chest on 3 separate occasions and didn't even get a purple heart (because he didn't get hurt, at all). Also, our medics are pretty freaking good these days. Shame Boy posted:To be fair they did have an actual army for like, 5 minutes, right at the beginning. lol
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Jun 28, 2019 00:18
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Armor and medicine have improved dramatically. Many people survived things that would have been fatal in Vietnam. The flip side is more people losing limbs and other permanent damage poo poo like that.
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Jun 28, 2019 00:32
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Lambert posted:Should include PMC numbers, nice way to reduce official casualty numbers. They don't count  spacetoaster posted:The new body armor. A guy in my unit got shot right in the chest on 3 separate occasions and didn't even get a purple heart (because he didn't get hurt, at all). I bet he did get hurt, but it's in the form of TBI or something from the full force of a bullet to the chest multiple times hydraulically squishing his brain over and over, but that doesn't count either because it'll show up long after he's out of the service so it's fine.
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Jun 28, 2019 00:32
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if the us didnt win iraq then W wouldnt have put out the big mission accomplished banner you dumb libs
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Jun 28, 2019 00:34
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EX250 Type R posted:Armor and medicine have improved dramatically. Many people survived things that would have been fatal in Vietnam. The flip side is more people losing limbs and other permanent damage poo poo like that. I'm sure that's the bulk of it, but also we didn't have death robots or tomahawk cruise missiles or precision GPS-guided bombs back then so I'm thinking a lot more stuff had to be done "manually" too
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Jun 28, 2019 00:35
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Shame Boy posted:I'm sure that's the bulk of it, but also we didn't have death robots or tomahawk cruise missiles or precision GPS-guided bombs back then so I'm thinking a lot more stuff had to be done "manually" too they had napalm
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Jun 28, 2019 00:36
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Shame Boy posted:I'm sure that's the bulk of it, but also we didn't have death robots or tomahawk cruise missiles or precision GPS-guided bombs back then so I'm thinking a lot more stuff had to be done "manually" too Shear Modulus posted:they had napalm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44b1J4iBWkc So did we. spacetoaster has issued a correction as of 00:42 on Jun 28, 2019 |
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Jun 28, 2019 00:37
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spacetoaster posted:The new body armor. Didn't this very forum have to crowdfund body armour for U.S. troops at one point?
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Jun 28, 2019 00:39
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Peanut President posted:Will Saddam burn the oil fields? Yes One of the big mistakes the US made was that they captured the oil fields and ministry of oil buildings only. No hospitals were protected, no museums, not other points of importance. The main thing to get first was the oil and oil records. Then the looting and such started, and the local populace saw the US wasn't going to help them other wave guns at them at checkpoints, some turned to help the insurgents.
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Jun 28, 2019 00:41
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SplitSoul posted:Didn't this very forum have to crowdfund body armour for U.S. troops at one point? You go to war with the army you have, not the army you want.
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Jun 28, 2019 00:43
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happyhippy posted:One of the big mistakes the US made was that they captured the oil fields and ministry of oil buildings only. That and we disbanded the army/police/government. We honestly did not think that everything was going to be looted/stolen immediately. And I mean everything.
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Jun 28, 2019 00:44
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Iraq was a 2 minute march to the capital then an occupation it's not really comparable.
Moridin920 has issued a correction as of 00:49 on Jun 28, 2019 |
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Jun 28, 2019 00:46
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Shame Boy posted:Oh yeah I remember reading about a Navy project or study or something that was doing a bunch of simulations about the whole Eve Online Goonswarm strategy of "lots of people attack a capital ship in small cheap boats" and came to the conclusion that "oh gently caress that would actually work really good and we don't know how to defend against it" so then they shut down the project to save face. The Navy does training exercises constantly. The reason those wargames were reset wasnt because the navy needed to save face, it was because there were hundreds of people involved in the excercise and if it continued that way then it would be worthless from a training standpoint. The Navy is very much aware of small boat swarm tactics and has ways to mitigate them. Regardless a war in the Persian gulf would be disastrous for the US Navy.
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Jun 28, 2019 00:49
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The missile boats were like the same size as the simulated missiles let me sell you on my new shoulder mounted 57mm cannon idea
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Jun 28, 2019 00:52
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happyhippy posted:One of the big mistakes the US made was that they captured the oil fields and ministry of oil buildings only. Like the UN WMD containment sites, the only sites in Iraq with actual presence of WMD. 
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Jun 28, 2019 00:52
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spacetoaster posted:That and we disbanded the army/police/government. the plan was for the iraqis to greet us as liberators and instantly assimilate themselves into being the 51st state, and questioning the logic or feasibility of that plan was not tolerated
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Jun 28, 2019 00:55
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spacetoaster posted:Well, that's an objective fact though. The point is that that "objective fact" is not at all relevant. it doesn't matter if we win every battle
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Jun 28, 2019 00:56
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regardless, the point should be that iran likely has the capacity and the will to actually fight back against a US invasion, making that whole prospect absurdly costly in every sense of the term and hopefully meaning that it's not going to happen
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Jun 28, 2019 00:59
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lol your president is an alzheimer's riddled cspam mod you're definitely going to war and somehow losing
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Jun 28, 2019 01:00
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spacetoaster posted:Well, that's an objective fact though. Bullshit. You guys are still crying and whining about 9/11. A war with Iran would mean a 9/11 every day for a year, your entire country would dissolve into a swamp of warring states a month in.
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Jun 28, 2019 01:02
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please knock Mom! posted:Bullshit. You guys are still crying and whining about 9/11. A war with Iran would mean a 9/11 every day for a year, your entire country would dissolve into a swamp of warring states a month in. huh, so THIS is what it feels like to be erect over war
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Jun 28, 2019 01:37
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US wouldn't handle 91100
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