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Who do you wish to win the Democratic primaries? This poll is closed. |
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| Joe Biden, the Inappropriate Toucher |
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18 | 1.46% |
| Bernie Sanders, the Hand Flailer |
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665 | 54.11% |
| Elizabeth Warren, the Plan Maker |
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319 | 25.96% |
| Kamala Harris, the Cop Lord |
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26 | 2.12% |
| Cory Booker, the Super Hero Wannabe |
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5 | 0.41% |
| Julian Castro, the Twin |
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5 | 0.41% |
| Kirsten Gillibrand, the Franken Killer |
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5 | 0.41% |
| Pete Buttigieg, the Troop Sociopath |
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17 | 1.38% |
| Robert Francis O'Rourke, the Fake Latino |
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3 | 0.24% |
| Jay Inslee, the Climate Alarmist |
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8 | 0.65% |
| Marianne Williamson, the Crystal Queen |
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86 | 7.00% |
| Tulsi Gabbard, the Muslim Hater |
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23 | 1.87% |
| Andrew Yang, the $1000 Fool |
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32 | 2.60% |
| Eric Swalwell, the Insurance Wife Guy |
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2 | 0.16% |
| Amy Klobuchar, the Comb Enthusiast |
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1 | 0.08% |
| Bill de Blasio, the NYPD Most Hated |
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4 | 0.33% |
| Tim Ryan, the Dope Face |
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3 | 0.24% |
| John Hickenlooper, the Also Ran |
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7 | 0.57% |
| Total: | 1229 votes | ||
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Tibalt posted:I didn't say they're the same, I said they're on the same side - something their policies and votes reflect.
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Jun 29, 2019 21:32
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Tibalt posted:I didn't say they're the same, I said they're on the same side - something their policies and votes reflect. which side is that? Because they don't seem to be on the same side at all to me.
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Jun 29, 2019 21:33
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Tibalt posted:You realize that post was saying that Bernie posters in this thread aren't overbearing assholes who are trying to drive everyone out, right? Yea, real assholish to point out that you value your fuzzy idea of a "more effective president" over millions of people not having to live in constant misery interspersed with the occasional bout of mass murder. You got me there, how could any sane person find something like that objectionable? Tibalt posted:I didn't say they're the same, I said they're on the same side - something their policies and votes reflect. Tell me more about Bernie approving the bombing of schools and hospitals and waxing lyrical about the necessity of arming the people who bomb them.
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Jun 29, 2019 21:35
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Lmao at anyone who sees Marianne Williamson talking and doesn't immediately recognize that she's batshit insane with one exception: she knows EXACTLY how to signal boost her brand. I wish I could go back to a world when I did not know who this person was, and people I know did not unironically agree with her talking points.
Bogus Adventure fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Jun 29, 2019 |
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Jun 29, 2019 21:35
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Who would you say has the closest Israel stance to Bernie's among the candidates on stage Wednesday and Thursday? Preferably one not polling at 1%. That's what I mean, and you all know it. Edit: anyway back to my original point I don't think this thread feels dog pile-y at all.
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Jun 29, 2019 21:36
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Tibalt posted:Who would you say has the closest Israel stance to Bernie's among the candidates on stage Wednesday and Thursday? Preferably one not polling at 1%. Tell me more about the tiny insignificant difference of condoning Israeli war crimes or not.
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Jun 29, 2019 21:38
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Majorian posted:Be specific. If it's all over the place, it shouldn't be too hard to come up with an example. People arguing why Bernie is better than Warren or whatever is in no ways the same thing as "shouting people down." I’m not gonna call out specific posters, and there have been a few folks who posted that they feel the same way, so I don’t think it’s a question of whether or not that happens. It does, in this thread, and especially the protest voting thread. The thing that boggles my mind is, most part, this is a forum that’s highly supportive of Bernie as the first choice, and the major point of contention is whether or not they’re fine with Warren, or someone else, as the runner-up. The posters who say they’re fine with a runner-up are mostly met with responses like “Yeah, but that person’s lovely, here’s why you should back Sanders.” And it’s like, unless you’re a “Bernie-or-Bust” voter (which, like Ytalya suggested is limited to a handful), that doesn’t make any sense. For the most part, folks seem to have done their research on candidates. They know that Booker is a corporate shill, they know Warren was a Republican and made a lovely choice with her DNA test, they know Kamala’s a cop. And it’s fine if an argument is made against those choices, but there doesn’t need to be vitriol and condescension. That’s not gonna convince anyone on SA, in the cases where Bernie isn’t their first choice, of why they should even continue engaging with their fellow posters.
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Jun 29, 2019 21:40
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Tibalt posted:Who would you say has the closest Israel stance to Bernie's among the candidates on stage Wednesday and Thursday? Preferably one not polling at 1%. Tibalt posted:Warren and Bernie's policies on Israel are mostly on the same side, and I think she'll be a more effective president. twodot fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Jun 29, 2019 |
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Jun 29, 2019 21:42
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Tibalt posted:You realize that post was saying that Bernie posters in this thread aren't overbearing assholes who are trying to drive everyone out, right? No, they are not. Warren specifically defended the bombing of hospitals and schools and specifically said that the US should not get involved in preventing the expansion of settlements: https://www.capecodtimes.com/article/20140821/news/408210325 quote:“But when Hamas puts its rocket launchers next to hospitals, next to schools, they’re using their civilian population to protect their military assets. And I believe Israel has a right, at that point, to defend itself,” Warren said, drawing applause. More recently, when the Obama administration in 2016 signaled that it would not veto the resolution calling settlements illegal, a number of senators signed a letter sponsored by AIPAC asking Obama to veto the "one sided" resolution: https://www.aipac.org/-/media/publi...ADDA6B8D8CFA471 Try to spot which senators signed the AIPAC letter and which didn't (Warren signed, Bernie didn't). Hell, let me just put this here: https://forward.com/news/343539/elizabeth-warren-is-the-surprising-israel-hawk-on-hillary-clintons-vice-pre/ quote:Warren would be the natural pick to win over supporters of another progressive Democratic icon — Vermont senator Bernie Sanders. The Bernie or Bust crowd, who are still uncomfortable with Clinton, may find Warren’s positions on social and economic issues just as exciting as Sanders’s. And that is without getting into things like North Korea (where Bernie put out a statement praising de-escalation while Warren complained that Trump was being taken advantage of), Iran (where Bernie voted against additional sanctions, while Warren voted for), Trump's military budget increases and so on. It's not an accident that Warren hired Sasha Baker (former deputy chief of staff for the secretary of defense under Obama) and Bernie hired Matt Duss (the guy who got in trouble at CAP for being too critical of Israel). Yes, Warren has gotten better in recent months and joined several of Bernie's resolutions. But I don't particularly trust leftwing conversions on the even of announcing a bid for presidency. joepinetree fucked around with this message at 21:51 on Jun 29, 2019 |
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Jun 29, 2019 21:43
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joepinetree posted:Yes, Warren has gotten better in recent months and joined several of Bernie's resolutions. But I don't particularly trust leftwing conversions on the even of announcing a bid for presidency.
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Jun 29, 2019 21:47
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generic one posted:I’m not gonna call out specific posters, and there have been a few folks who posted that they feel the same way, so I don’t think it’s a question of whether or not that happens. It does, in this thread, and especially the protest voting thread. If somebody starts pulling obvious dishonest bullshit then they deserve to be called out for it. There's also an element of pattern recognition here, because a lot of the poo poo we see it the exact same poo poo that was pulled in 2016, such as the "well Bernie and X are basically the same" claim that we can see on this very page. Tibalt posted:Oh good, I was feeling a bit alone on this. Anyway, I understand where you're coming from, but politicians are always going to be different when placed in different contexts. I don't find it to be an uncross-able red line but more of something you need to take into account. Have you considered that you might be getting a hostile reaction because you don't see condoning literal war crimes as a dealbreaker?
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Jun 29, 2019 21:49
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Cerebral Bore posted:If somebody starts pulling obvious dishonest bullshit then they deserve to be called out for it. There's also an element of pattern recognition here, because a lot of the poo poo we see it the exact same poo poo that was pulled in 2016, such as the "well Bernie and X are basically the same" claim that we can see on this very page.
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Jun 29, 2019 21:52
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Things Bernie and Warren agree on wrt to Israel: -Israel has two official languages: Hebrew and Arabic -Israel is only 1/6 of 1% of the landmass of the Middle East (Israel is roughly half the size of Lake Michigan). -Golda Meir was the 3rd woman in history to serve as a country’s prime minister. -Israel’s population has reached 8 million as of Independence Day 2013! -Israel has won five bronze Olympic medals, one silver and one gold. -Developed by Major Uzi Gaf, more than 10 million Uzi machine guns have been build since 1948. -34 political parties participated in Israel’s 2013 elections. -Israel has more museums per capita than any other country in the world. -The Dead Sea in Israel is the lowest point on earth, at 1,315 feet below sea level at its lowest point. -Ever wondered if the glue on Israel’s stamps are kosher? It is. -There are also kosher McDonald’s. -In many Israeli bus stops, you can find a box for tzedakah (charitable giving). -With more than 3,000 high-tech companies and start-ups, Israel has the highest concentration of hi-tech companies in the world (apart from the Silicon Valley). -Most of the Windows NT operating system was developed by Microsoft-Israel -The Pentium MMX Chip technology was designed in Israel at Intel. -Voice mail technology was also developed in Israel. -Four young Israelis developed the technology for AOL Instant Messenger and ICQ. Things they disagree on: -Whether or not Israel is evil.
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Jun 29, 2019 21:53
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Tibalt posted:Oh good, I was feeling a bit alone on this. Anyway, I understand where you're coming from, but politicians are always going to be different when placed in different contexts. I don't find it to be an uncross-able red line but more of something you need to take into account. Note that while she has gotten better on supporting Bernie's actions, she has not actually walked back any of her previous support of Israel. And in some areas (Venezuela) she has actually gotten worse. And foreign policy seems a very strange area to just shrug your shoulders, since that is one area where presidents actually have a lot of unilateral power. I am pretty sure that it is impossible to rationalize treating foreign policy as a small detail without coming across as a monster. Which is why so many so called progressives would rather not talk about it at all.
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Jun 29, 2019 21:56
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Tibalt posted:Claiming that Warren is like Clinton and that the DNC in 2016 is the same DNC now comes across as a bit paranoid, though. Warren isn't Clinton. The DNC made a point of trying to be even-handed and fair, which is why you had 20 candidates on stage over two nights. Tell me more how it's paranoid to be suspicious of the organization that literally let itself be bought by one of the candidates last time around. Also the only way to keep those fuckers on the straight and narrow is to watch them like a goddamn hawk and raise hell the moment it looks like they could even consider starting some fuckery.
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Jun 29, 2019 21:57
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https://twitter.com/KFILE/status/1145041387315957760
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Jun 29, 2019 21:57
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I mean, okay, I don't feel like enough people are going to do that to matter... but even if they do, so what? She'll still be polling at low %s and I don't think 'kooky' candidates hurt the party as much as people seem to think they do.
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Jun 29, 2019 22:01
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look some republicans are just tired of strong daddy and have been aching for warm momma
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Jun 29, 2019 22:01
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How did Republicans manage to not only repeat the mistake they made in 08 but do it worse? Williamson is a person. They should be boosting one of the empty suits and pretending nevertrump is real.
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Jun 29, 2019 22:06
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Lol if Republicans being loving idiots actually gets Williamson to beat Trump And we are in the hell timeline, so it could happen
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Jun 29, 2019 22:10
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If 2016 repeats itself....
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Jun 29, 2019 22:11
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joepinetree posted:Warren's proposal isn't good because it says absolutely nothing about how to actually enforce it in a world where the us allows anonymous trusts and off shore accounts. yah, this. The current tax code is so loaded with ways for people to hide their money--family foundations, family trusts, LLCs, offshore accounts, holding companies--that there's no way for the government to accurately assess and tax people's net worth.
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Jun 29, 2019 22:17
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TulliusCicero posted:Lol if Republicans being loving idiots actually gets Williamson to beat Trump Just loving lmao 
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Jun 29, 2019 22:18
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Why though? She isn't actually proposing anything that will damage the Democratic party. At least the 2008 operation chaos idiocy had a logical through line of nobody would vote for a black man and it'll hurt Hillary. Unless they think she'll actually destroy Donny in the astral plane, live, and in the middle of a debate, giving them a shot at holding on to the White House.
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Jun 29, 2019 22:26
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joepinetree posted:Yes, Warren has gotten better in recent months and joined several of Bernie's resolutions. But I don't particularly trust leftwing conversions on the even of announcing a bid for presidency.  If she keeps up having not-terrible positions on Israel/Palestine from now until people actually start voting, I'll probably reconsider my assessment of her foreign policy. But for now, one can't fairly say that she and Bernie are the same on I/P or on foreign policy more broadly, because they're really not.
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Jun 29, 2019 22:26
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Z. Autobahn posted:I'm gonna chime in real quick and say that no, it is very much those 3-4 extremely obnoxious posters that make this thread basically unbearable and drove most of us away. Like, you're right that folks like you and Marjoran and even VS, while we disagree, are actually engaging and interesting to talk to and I feel like I often learn something or have a worthwhile conversation. But the "Warren is a fascist and if you back her you're worse than Trump" moron brigade is *really* loving annoying and they post constantly and make this thread unbearable. Nice straw man, but Warren support has to be addressed head on because it has the potential to actually derail Sanders - someone with actual solutions to structural problems. If the echo chamber can be confronted in here and social media, then great. It should be done in everywhere.
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Jun 29, 2019 22:27
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Groovelord Neato posted:other than "he's gonna die in office" i can't imagine why you'd vote warren over sanders. Pick one or more of the following: - American political media is largely garbage run by rich assholes which has the effect of giving the average person strange ideas like "Obama is smuggling isis bomb vests over the mexican border!!" or "Pelosi isn't right wing as poo poo" - "Financially Comfortable" posters* who lack any material conception of politics and solely identify with politics in terms of what will make them seem like a "smart, good liberal" at parties and on Facebook. - They're in their early 20s/late teens and this is potentially their first election that they've paid any attention to *rich idiots I'm mostly playing this for a joke, but that first line is one that I think Internet Nerds, who are Very Online, tend to forget about when discussing politics. The vast, vast majority of people don't have the time, money, or very broad education/life experience required to really get into this stuff without being conned by mainstream media outlets into believing Objectively Stupid poo poo like "Iran is an existential threat to the United States and must be bombed to hell" or "Universal Healthcare and Taxing Rich Assholes are radical ideas". And god help you if you have a rightwing family or something, because then your only exposure to politics is going to be guys on Lou Dobbs talking about how ~the mexicans brought smallpox back~ and breathless and completely not at all made up facebook posts about how AOC just legalized selling baby parts to communist China. Marxalot fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Jun 29, 2019 |
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Jun 29, 2019 22:27
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Cerebral Bore posted:If somebody starts pulling obvious dishonest bullshit then they deserve to be called out for it. There's also an element of pattern recognition here, because a lot of the poo poo we see it the exact same poo poo that was pulled in 2016, such as the "well Bernie and X are basically the same" claim that we can see on this very page. I didn’t say they shouldn’t be called out, I just said the reply shouldn’t be full of vitriol and condescension. Maybe I’m slipping into the decorum category here, but if one insults the other person, instead of providing a helpful push in the right direction, one will probably lose access to changing their opinion through normal conversation. Some people, you just can’t reach. Failure to communicate, and all that, but I have a genuine feeling that most of the folks that participate in the D&D forum are willing to listen, at least more so than some of my family that are die-hard Republicans with glacial immobility on certain conservative issues. That make more sense?
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Jun 29, 2019 22:28
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Marxalot posted:Pick one or more of the following: This panic over traditional media is hilarious considering how horribly it has failed to control the narrative since 2016. The rest of "political media" is pretty evenly divided between left and right. Leftists have made a lot of progress in controlling the narrative online.
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Jun 29, 2019 22:29
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Guys Marianne Williamson is not going to be the democratic nominee.  If Marianne Williamson is the democratic nominee, I will get a tattoo of VitalSign’s choice on a part of my body ordinarily covered by clothing.
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Jun 29, 2019 22:30
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She's summoned bipartisan support from the Astral Realm and it is taking the form of donations
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Jun 29, 2019 22:32
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Very brave toxx, Ogmius.Judakel posted:This panic over traditional media is hilarious considering how horribly it has failed to control the narrative since 2016. The rest of "political media" is pretty evenly divided between left and right. Leftists have made a lot of progress in controlling the narrative online. It still has a disproportionate level of influence over Democratic primary voters and especially Democratic party elites, unfortunately.
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Jun 29, 2019 22:32
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Ogmius815 posted:Guys Marianne Williamson is not going to be the democratic nominee. Coolio Dunno who that is though. E; Damnt you edited it fast enough to avoid the mark.
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Jun 29, 2019 22:32
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Majorian posted:Very brave toxx, Ogmius. Maybe. Remember, boomers have been collectively overtaken by other generations as a portion of the electorate. We will see how successful we are at engaging them.
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Jun 29, 2019 22:33
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boomers are the reason biden has the lead he does.
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Jun 29, 2019 22:34
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Judakel posted:Maybe. Remember, boomers have been collectively overtaken by other generations as a portion of the electorate. We will see how successful we are at engaging them. I'm optimistic, but the mainstream media still has a lot of clout to gently caress with these primaries, which is lovely. Launch Chuck Todd into space.
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Jun 29, 2019 22:35
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Judakel posted:This panic over traditional media is hilarious considering how horribly it has failed to control the narrative since 2016. The rest of "political media" is pretty evenly divided between left and right. Leftists have made a lot of progress in controlling the narrative online. Considering that the majority of people in this country who aren't just (mercifully) completely disconnected from politics seem to think that Trump brought the jobs back/hispanic immigrants are literally slaughtering good whites in the streets and/or that the only thing wrong with america is Trump with a side of mild and very rural non-systemic racism  e: also the literal point of that line was that not everyone is Online As poo poo like the esteemed posters of this thread
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Jun 29, 2019 22:36
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there isn’t one candidate with good views on Israel , Israel should be treated and regarded like apartheid South Africa . It’s a shame, really , that people are so afraid to stand up for what is right .
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Jun 29, 2019 22:37
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Marxalot posted:Considering that the majority of people in this country who aren't just (mercifully) completely disconnected from politics seem to think that Trump brought the jobs back/hispanic immigrants are literally slaughtering good whites in the streets and/or that the only thing wrong with america is Trump with a side of mild and very rural non-systemic racism Citation needed. "We are doing fine in this country jobs wise" *takes 20th job*
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Jun 29, 2019 22:39
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Punk da Bundo posted:there isn’t one candidate with good views on Israel , Israel should be treated and regarded like apartheid South Africa . It’s a shame, really , that people are so afraid to stand up for what is right . I actually 100% agree with you on this. Israel is a fascist apartheid state, and it should be called out for exactly what it is
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Jun 29, 2019 22:41
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