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Slung Blade
Jul 11, 2002

IN STEEL WE TRUST

Kenshin posted:

I feel like this should be the thread title in some way

I agree but I think it's a little too long.

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armorer
Aug 6, 2012

I like metal.

Ambrose Burnside posted:

pathologically overengineering solutions just because

Kaiser Schnitzel
Mar 29, 2006

Schnitzel mit uns


mekilljoydammit posted:

So funny musing today. Is there any good way to figure out what things would, approximately, cost to make? I have a bunch of pretty hashed out designs for various car parts but most of them would take better equipment than I have to do safely.

I don't really want to be a machine shop in the "selling services to keep the lights on" sense, I'm looking more in terms of retrofitting some machines at a price level where I can treat it all as a hobby, then sell parts as extras. But I'm basically just completely mystified as to where the break-even point is or if the very concept is dumb.
Well, this turned into :words: in a hurry, but...

I run a woodshop, not a metal shop, but the idea is the same. As other have said, figure up your hourly rate. I basically added up all my projected yearly expenses (insurance, utilities, rent, advertising, my own pay, profit, depreciation and wear and tear on machines, setting something aside for maintenance costs, new machines, consumables, etc) and that gives you the number you need to gross/produce every year, month, week, day etc. and that helps a ton to figure out how much you need to be selling (REMEMBER: PRODUCTION WITHOUT SALES= SCRAP). I divided that yearly by 2,000 hours/yr and came up with a shop rate of $48/hr, and that has worked out fairly well for me so far. $48/hr x estimated hours + materials = bid for customer. Easy enough. Materials are easy to estimate-the hard hard hard hard hard hard hard part is accurately predicting how long something is going to take, especially when you haven't done exactly that thing before.

My uncle is an estimator for shipyards-he figures out how many miles of weld are in a ship and how many hours it is going to take to weld them. When I first started doing this and thinking I would want to run my own shop someday, he gave me the best advice I've ever gotten, which is to record how long it takes to do everything. That's a big part of good estimating, and good estimating is a huge key to small scale manufacturing. I know it takes me 2 hours to build a hand dovetailed drawer from scratch, and so I can look at a drawing and know each drawer costs $125 w/ materials. Presumably you're going to make prototypes for whatever you are making-record how long every part of it takes, and then make some educated guesses about how much faster you can get when you set up for production.

All that is how to price stuff as basically a job shop. Time and materials sure works, especially when you are doing lots of different things. The other way to try and price your work is based not on your costs, but on what people are willing to pay for your product. Something might only cost you $400 in time and materials to make, but if the going rate for that widget is $600 (or better yet, nobody is making the thing you are making, but people want it), you can probably sell a bunch of them for $500 and make a $100 extra. The flip side of this is when it costs you $400 to make a widget and :china: can make them for $40, you are SOL. I price most of my beds this way-I can make them for $X,000 time and materials, but people seem willing to pay $X,000+$500 for them, and so that's what I charge.

It sounds like you are in a good position to dip your toe in the water and see how you like doing this, and that's what I would do. It also doesn't hurt to call around local machine shops and see if you can get a feel for their hourly rates. It's also worth getting quotes from local shops on your parts-it would both give you an idea what someone with some expertise thinks it would cost to make profitably, but also you might find a shop that could make them better, faster, cheaper than you could yourself and let you focus on the design/prototyping work.

I would very strongly recommend this book-it breaks down a lot of the 'running a business' side of things, and working through a business plan is a great exercise and functions as both a good reality check, as well as a great 'well, maybe this isn't such a crackpot scheme after all.' Think too about who your potential customers are-does anyone even want this awesome widget I'm making? Who are those people? How are they going to learn about my awesome widget? REMEMBER: PRODUCTION WITHOUT SALES= SCRAP
https://www.amazon.com/Write-Busine...ps%2C168&sr=8-5

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012


mekilljoydammit posted:

So funny musing today. Is there any good way to figure out what things would, approximately, cost to make? I have a bunch of pretty hashed out designs for various car parts but most of them would take better equipment than I have to do safely.

I don't really want to be a machine shop in the "selling services to keep the lights on" sense, I'm looking more in terms of retrofitting some machines at a price level where I can treat it all as a hobby, then sell parts as extras. But I'm basically just completely mystified as to where the break-even point is or if the very concept is dumb.

I worked for one shop that did design-assembly work and farmed out all of the machining and fabricating. Their rational was a dedicated machine shop could give a better price than we could internally. In almost all cases they were correct and for added benefit they had zero risk invested in tooling, machines, or personnel. This only works if you have a decently large manufacturing base nearby. For proof of concept I'd farm out the first run or two, gauge demand, communicate well with your supplier and analyze everything after you've sold batch #1. Then you can make an educated calculation if you really need to do it yourself or if someone else can do it cheaper.

Throw all this out if you really want to do the machining as a hobby and make some extra goonbucks on the side.

mekilljoydammit
Jan 28, 2016

Me have motors that scream to 10,000rpm. Me have more cars than Pick and Pull
I'm going to have to get that business plan book; I am 100% not used to thinking like that. I automatically think of everything in hobby terms where my time has no value because it's "fun"; if I'm ever selling anything I need to stop that.

Yooper posted:

I worked for one shop that did design-assembly work and farmed out all of the machining and fabricating. Their rational was a dedicated machine shop could give a better price than we could internally. In almost all cases they were correct and for added benefit they had zero risk invested in tooling, machines, or personnel. This only works if you have a decently large manufacturing base nearby. For proof of concept I'd farm out the first run or two, gauge demand, communicate well with your supplier and analyze everything after you've sold batch #1. Then you can make an educated calculation if you really need to do it yourself or if someone else can do it cheaper.

Throw all this out if you really want to do the machining as a hobby and make some extra goonbucks on the side.

This is the other side from the previous posters and where I'm sitting, though all of it's been good advice to get me started thinking correctly. I guess the big thing is from hobby stuff I automatically go in the "one man band" direction. I like machining stuff and learning new skills to run new machines, and then I look on auction sites and think hey, with a little stretch I could have a VMC and cylindrical grinder and so on ad absurdam ... but I also like designing stuff, and testing stuff after it's made, and using the stuff in actual practice (this is all about car parts for club racing, really) and even if I'm not also holding down a day job and raising a kid, there's not enough hours in the day.

Line I think I'm going... I know how to run a lathe and want to get a bigger one anyway (even if it feels irrationally disloyal to not rebuilding my little South Bend) and a lot of the stuff I want to make is going to be composed almost solely of lathe cuts with a few indexed holes/milling. Other stuff such as eccentric shafts (rotary engine crankshaft equivalent) I can definitely get roughed out but... I have no business buying the machines and skilling up to do, say, grinding of journals. So if I stay in onesie-twosie quantities I do the stuff in-house that I can to order and contract out finishing operations that are needed, if I sell enough that it makes sense, I start contracting out more.


Example of one of the mostly-lathed pieces (not finished) ... the black and inner grey parts are new, everything else in the assembly is purchased.

armorer
Aug 6, 2012

I like metal.
I need to make about 50 holes in a sheet of 18g sterling silver, but the holes need to be very small, just large enough to fit a 22g wire through. I have some tiny drills, but this would be a nightmare to drill I think, because they'd be constantly snapping or dulling. Anyone have any bright ideas? Are there tiny punches that could do this?

Edit: riogrande has something but it only goes down to 18g, which is still too big for this.

Double Edit: I'll just try some better bits first I think.

armorer fucked around with this message at 16:00 on Jun 30, 2019

shame on an IGA
Apr 8, 2005

are you using a drill press or doing this by hand?

armorer
Aug 6, 2012

I like metal.

shame on an IGA posted:

are you using a drill press or doing this by hand?

A pin vise. It's actually going better than expected

His Divine Shadow
Aug 7, 2000

I'm not a fascist. I'm a priest. Fascists dress up in black and tell people what to do.
Okay lifted off the headstock, I went with M10 bolts that I attached to the T-slots on the sides. I modified the bolts a little on the lathe, turned the top of the bolt heads flat by removing the lettering to make them fit the slot, a bit too thick otherwise. I also went in with a parting tool on the underside of the bolt heads because there was a ridge there, turned that down to increase the surface area of the bolt head acting against the inside of the T-slot. Then 4 bolts, some big washers and some nuts and it was easy to remove. This shop crane is soo useful. Especially after the modifications and the shorter support legs



Hmmm I mentioned a long time ago that I noted some strange sounds from inside the headstock when I moved it back and forth. Think this is a cause... No idea what it is yet, gonna see if the spare parts diagrams have anything to say.



Continuing...





Hmmm


I believe the piece of sheet metal stuck under the headstock has some relation to this. Been looking through my parts list docs but have not been able to identify the part that is broken, it's probably a part of an assembly but the docs don't go into that level of detail. I think it's just a cover though and somehow it got trapped in the head stock behind the gear and got pulled off.

Not sure where these are from, aluminum bits, can't find a source for these.


Full of junk everywhere, I removed this whole part and dunk it in kerosene.


Cleaned up a little bit, wear can be seen on the front of the sliding surfaces.


I got a picture of a deckel fp2 with the intact sheet metal part and it looks simple enough to manufacture myself. Then I will start on the headstock. Inside there are two reservoirs that you fill with oil and there are wicks that suck up this oil and move it to the oil channels in the sliding surfaces. This is only accessible by removing the long reach head that is otherwise mounted on the headstock so it's a PITA to inspect, I guess that is why the manual specifies that the oil change is yearly.

And I note he manual specifies gear oil, not way oil, despite lubricating the ways with this oil. I believe that is because the oil eventually drains down into the gear box so hence the reason for using the same kind of oil.

Ambrose Burnside
Aug 30, 2007

pensive
Crossposting this from woodworking thread-
bought the contents of a former handyman's workshop junk drawer + organizers at an estate sale for pocket change and have been sorting the contents. some excellent stuff in here given the "just get it out of here" price, like a lifetime supply of small, well-machined little knobs, knurled finger nuts, depth stops, i think even cast-in-place nuts etc of the sort you can't get made to this quality any more, all brass/nonferrous as far as i can tell:



aside from that, here's two puzzlers for you good people:


what is a spherical-head slotted screw used for, or from what era? the rust ring says it was countersunk, and also that it was salvaged from something else by this dude, so it was already old when he got to it, and the jar it was stored in is 60-70 years old (cant date anything else in it specifically beyond "p dang old")



I've never seen this drive style before and google is giving me zip. any ideas on what it's called or used for, beyond small brass screws? Maybe it's an early anti-stripping/camout slot-drive modification for soft metals?

His Divine Shadow
Aug 7, 2000

I'm not a fascist. I'm a priest. Fascists dress up in black and tell people what to do.
Don't remember if it was here people talked about tiny splinters and poo poo, but my "pro-tip" is to buy a loupe, or several. I bought several cheap 10x ones and leave them around the shop and house. Last night it came in handy to dig out a small metallic sliver that was too small to see but that I definitely felt every time my knuckles touched something. Also came in handy digging out splinters on others.

Also good for checking the cutting edges on your tools.

CopperHound
Feb 14, 2012

Ambrose Burnside posted:


I've never seen this drive style before and google is giving me zip. any ideas on what it's called or used for, beyond small brass screws? Maybe it's an early anti-stripping/camout slot-drive modification for soft metals?
I did some searching because I have a bit for that but have never seen the matching bolt. It is called a clutch head.
As for why? I would guess it is so you could use both standard slotted blades or the matching bit that will stay centered.
I found this:


Most searches for clutch screws now bring up one way security screws.

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012


Ambrose Burnside posted:

Crossposting this from woodworking thread-
bought the contents of a former handyman's workshop junk drawer + organizers at an estate sale for pocket change and have been sorting the contents. some excellent stuff in here given the "just get it out of here" price, like a lifetime supply of small, well-machined little knobs, knurled finger nuts, depth stops, i think even cast-in-place nuts etc of the sort you can't get made to this quality any more, all brass/nonferrous as far as i can tell:



aside from that, here's two puzzlers for you good people:


what is a spherical-head slotted screw used for, or from what era? the rust ring says it was countersunk, and also that it was salvaged from something else by this dude, so it was already old when he got to it, and the jar it was stored in is 60-70 years old (cant date anything else in it specifically beyond "p dang old")



I've never seen this drive style before and google is giving me zip. any ideas on what it's called or used for, beyond small brass screws? Maybe it's an early anti-stripping/camout slot-drive modification for soft metals?

Brass screws look like those anti-tamper screws you see in sketchy rest rooms to keep crackheads from stealing the doors off the shitters. Copperhound is probably right and it's a version of clutch screws.

I too have a few of the miscellaneous ball head screws and I'm no wiser to the use. I can recall them as a kid in old houses for some sort of door or window hardware.

Motronic
Nov 6, 2009
Probation
Can't post for 6 hours!

Yooper posted:

I too have a few of the miscellaneous ball head screws and I'm no wiser to the use. I can recall them as a kid in old houses for some sort of door or window hardware.

I've seen them used for spring clips on swing-open windows, shutters, doors, etc. Basically the spring clip is mounted to the thing you want to keep open and you screw one of those into the wall/jamb that it opens to and pop the clip over the ball to keep it held open. Or reverse that and put the spring clip on the wall. I've seen it done both ways.

Jaded Burnout
Jul 10, 2004


I've asked this in here before I'm sure but things change in life and industry and whatever.

At some point in the near-ish future I'm going to need to do some welding. I have read the overviews in the first page of this thread and they're helpful, but I'm not quite there in knowing what's best for me.

The main use is going to be medium-sized, medium-precision, medium-load structural stuff, like legs and frames for tables, or balustrades on stair landings. Mostly steel and iron. I'd likely need to grind or otherwise clean up welds for aesthetics.

Here's where the wrinkles are.

I'm never going to have a full metalworking shop, lathes and mills are outside the world I want to operate in, and as such the places I can weld are either in the house (not ideal for reasons discussed last time), outside (which raises issues around protective gases), or in a primarily woodworking workshop with all the attendant flammability of materials therein.

As a stretch goal I'd also like to weld aluminium since I have a modest amount of e.g. ladders and towers that I'd like to be able to modify and maintain, and I'm not sure which types of welding can do that and whether extra features (like AC/DC options) are required.

A thing putting me off oxy/acetylene is that I'm somewhat scared of having large tanks of highly compressed fuel around the place, plus large flame + wood everywhere. For some of the other types, I'm not a superfan of the huge mess they make and the extra cleanup required afterwards, plus sparks in some cases which could be a danger in a woodshop.

Opinions?

sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

Ba

By

Sharkytm doot doo do doot do doo


Fallen Rib
Budget? There's a huge difference between $200 and $2000. Is this for hobby use, or are you trying to make a living using these welded parts? Material thickness? Available voltage/amperage? Country of residence?

Without more info, I'm gonna say forget aluminum. You'll need AC TIG to do it well, and that's not cheap. I'm going to say either get a MIG and run flux core outside if needed, or get one of the newer multiprocess machines that can do MIG, stick, and DC TIG. This is, of course, assuming you know how to weld (or are willing to spend the time and money to learn), are sure you're going to do it regularly enough to warrant owning a machine, and have reasonable expectations.

And forget oxy/fuel. No one welds with it anymore except specialty applications, and it's time consuming and expensive to run. It's GREAT for heating though.

Jaded Burnout
Jul 10, 2004


sharkytm posted:

Budget? There's a huge difference between $200 and $2000. Is this for hobby use, or are you trying to make a living using these welded parts?

Somewhere in between and somewhere in between. I'm trying not to spend more than £500 on a given tool but doesn't have to be bargain basement either.

I'm definitely not selling the stuff (or my services) but this is more of adding another arrow to my "making stuff for myself" quiver. So it's more pragmatic than a true hobby, but I won't be making a career of it.

sharkytm posted:

Material thickness?

Most likely square and circular tubing in the 2-4" range, thickness depends on application but a few mm I would imagine. Possibly some solid iron rods of an inch or two thickness.

sharkytm posted:

Available voltage/amperage?

100A@230VAC at the street, but that's covering the whole house and garden/shop so probably the whole shop would be on a 230V/52A breaker or something.

sharkytm posted:

Country of residence?

United Kingdom.

sharkytm posted:

Without more info, I'm gonna say forget aluminum. You'll need AC TIG to do it well, and that's not cheap. I'm going to say either get a MIG and run flux core outside if needed, or get one of the newer multiprocess machines that can do MIG, stick, and DC TIG.

Sounds reasonable.

sharkytm posted:

This is, of course, assuming you know how to weld (or are willing to spend the time and money to learn),

I am, yes. My philosophy on my house reno has been to try things myself and learn where I need to.

sharkytm posted:

are sure you're going to do it regularly enough to warrant owning a machine

This is something I've been mulling over too, in that if the sort of machine I'd need to get to do both the work I'd want in the way I want is top-end, then farming the work out would be more likely. I do like having the skills and tools to do things myself, plus not having to deal with other people's schedules and transport of large fabricated things, but I'm also being pragmatic about it.

sharkytm posted:

and have reasonable expectations.

What would an unreasonable expectation be in this context?

sharkytm posted:

And forget oxy/fuel. No one welds with it anymore except specialty applications, and it's time consuming and expensive to run. It's GREAT for heating though.

Gotcha.

His Divine Shadow
Aug 7, 2000

I'm not a fascist. I'm a priest. Fascists dress up in black and tell people what to do.
You can weld alu with DC MIG, though not as thin stock and not as nice looking as TIG, though it takes training to get nice looking TIG welds too so it will probably look like turds for a while, does for me and I've had a welder for years now.

shovelbum
Oct 21, 2010

Fun Shoe
You can stick weld aluminum if you want

Sagebrush
Feb 26, 2012

Did y'all catch where he said he wants to weld aluminum to fix ladders and scaffolds and stuff? I would strongly discourage you from attempting to repair safety-critical equipment like that if you have zero welding experience. At least wait until you understand concepts like HAZ and how to get consistent penetration.

DC TIG/stick is your best bet for a cheap, effective system for repairs and fabrication in ferrous metals. You can get the whole kit you need (the machine, the gas bottle, the filler, the safety gear) for your $630 budget. The stick welding capability will let you fix heavy stuff like farm equipment, while the TIG system will let you do precision work. MIG is easy to learn and great if you need to work fast, but as a hobbyist I suggest spending the time learning to run a TIG because it's a lot more flexible in the end and speed is not your concern.

As noted, you can also do rough repairs to aluminum with the proper sticks, but if you want to do aluminum TIG you'll need an AC model. Raise your budget to $1000 and you can get a nice entry-level AC TIG like an Everlast PowerTIG 185; yeah it's not red or blue but I have used mine for the last 6 years on everything from 3/8" steel plate to thin aluminum castings and have had zero problems.

e: oh, and regarding working outside. Stick welding works in a rainstorm, under the ocean, etc so you won't have an issue there. If you're trying to TIG something in a hurricane then yes you'll need to set up some shields so your gas doesn't get blown away, but if it's just out in the back yard you don't need to worry about it. The proper nozzle/gas lens and good technique are all you need.

e2: don't even consider welding in your wood shop

Sagebrush fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Jul 4, 2019

Jaded Burnout
Jul 10, 2004


Sagebrush posted:

Did y'all catch where he said he wants to weld aluminum to fix ladders and scaffolds and stuff? I would strongly discourage you from attempting to repair safety-critical equipment like that if you have zero welding experience. At least wait until you understand concepts like HAZ and how to get consistent penetration.

There's a difference between repairing safety-critical equipment and repairing safety-critical parts of safety critical equipment. I'm not an idiot. I'm talking about things like adding a ring of alu to the top of a tower section so it'll more easily accept the next section before being secured with the factory fittings. But point taken.

Sagebrush posted:

DC TIG/stick is your best bet for a cheap, effective system for repairs and fabrication in ferrous metals. You can get the whole kit you need (the machine, the gas bottle, the filler, the safety gear) for your $630 budget. The stick welding capability will let you fix heavy stuff like farm equipment, while the TIG system will let you do precision work. MIG is easy to learn and great if you need to work fast, but as a hobbyist I suggest spending the time learning to run a TIG because it's a lot more flexible in the end and speed is not your concern.

As noted, you can also do rough repairs to aluminum with the proper sticks, but if you want to do aluminum TIG you'll need an AC model. Raise your budget to $1000 and you can get a nice entry-level AC TIG like an Everlast PowerTIG 185; yeah it's not red or blue but I have used mine for the last 6 years on everything from 3/8" steel plate to thin aluminum castings and have had zero problems.

Cheers

Sagebrush posted:

e: oh, and regarding working outside. Stick welding works in a rainstorm, under the ocean, etc so you won't have an issue there. If you're trying to TIG something in a hurricane then yes you'll need to set up some shields so your gas doesn't get blown away, but if it's just out in the back yard you don't need to worry about it. The proper nozzle/gas lens and good technique are all you need.

Good to know, thanks.

cakesmith handyman
Jul 22, 2007

Pip-Pip old chap! Last one in is a rotten egg what what.

Maybe a cheap fluxcore mig for your steel needs and brazing the aluminium instead?

honda whisperer
Mar 29, 2009

Either mig or tig would work. +1 to not oxy.

Tig takes 2 hands and a foot to use. Bench with vise or fixturing recommend. Visegrips count as a fixture. Harder to use in any position that isn't like sitting or standing at a desk. No sparks. Changing material is as easy as picking up a different filler rod.

Mig could be run wearing mittens by an amputee. If not one hand can hold part of what your welding and the other the mig gun. Easier to use on your back or upside down. Throws sparks. Sparks suck when under the weld. Changing material requires changing the wire spool in the machine. Not hard but not sub 10 seconds.

Personally I have a tig and only that. I love it. I'll probably buy a mig when auto body work needs doing.

Based on your requests I'd recommend an inexpensive mig and if you like it but constantly want more go for a nicer tig later. You'll still use your mig all the time.

honda whisperer
Mar 29, 2009

Also you might be able to weld in a wood shop. Is it clean or covered in sawdust and small bits of wood? Have you got enough room to make a large clean area around where you're welding? If so I might switch to recommending tig for no sparks.

Jaded Burnout
Jul 10, 2004


honda whisperer posted:

Based on your requests I'd recommend an inexpensive mig and if you like it but constantly want more go for a nicer tig later. You'll still use your mig all the time.

After everyone's advice (and about five minutes staring at brands I've never heard of on welding supply websites) I've decided to try outsourcing first and only buy if that doesn't work out, but if/when that happens this suggestion is probably what I'm going to do, thanks :)

While poking around I also found an import 200A TIG/MIG/Stick AC/DC machine for 350 quid delivered which I'm sure is just chef kiss quality and definitely won't self-ignite.

A Proper Uppercut
Sep 30, 2008

Not exactly related, but we bought a Millermatic MIG for the shop, just for mainly welding stacks of thin material together, and the thing is amazing, it's so drat easy to use, it's just like a metal glue gun. I've never welded in my life (and I still cant pretty much) buy you almost don't need to be able to with this thing.

echomadman
Aug 24, 2004

Nap Ghost

Jaded Burnout posted:

After everyone's advice (and about five minutes staring at brands I've never heard of on welding supply websites) I've decided to try outsourcing first and only buy if that doesn't work out, but if/when that happens this suggestion is probably what I'm going to do, thanks :)

While poking around I also found an import 200A TIG/MIG/Stick AC/DC machine for 350 quid delivered which I'm sure is just chef kiss quality and definitely won't self-ignite.

As you're in the UK, R-tech do decent welders for home gamers. I have their 180A mig and it's been a joy to use on steel. It has a spoolgun plug so you can weld aluminium if you really want to, although as sagebrush said I wouldn't want to use it for anything my life depended on.
It's also a decent stick welder.
https://www.r-techwelding.co.uk/mig-welder-r-tech-i-mig180/

Ambrose Burnside
Aug 30, 2007

pensive
mig definitely -is- the easiest to learn, ultimately, but i'm always leery of encouraging people to self-teach themselves using one if they want to do anything involving the word "structural" (liability or no) because it's deceptively easy to produce great-looking welds with only a fraction of a properly-executed weld's strength. a nice-looking bead off a stick welder, for example, is a far better indicator of a solid weld, and if you're not doing something right there will be a reliable diagnostic 'tell' for you that generally isn't subtle or likely to be missed.

my thinking is that almost everybody should start with stick unless they have a very specific predetermined application. it's the cheapest to get going with, fairly flexible irt suitable materials and applications, tolerant of poor weld prep and challenging environmental conditions, and has a general combination of characteristics that make it ideal as a first process to learn. even if you plan on running mig afterwards i would give stick a shot and try to make it work. trade up if it doesn't, or start a collection, you can never have too many welders [extremely cursed sentence]

Ambrose Burnside fucked around with this message at 21:58 on Jul 4, 2019

echomadman
Aug 24, 2004

Nap Ghost
Also if you just want to learn stick welding Lidl and Aldi also have pretty good small inverter based welders every few months for 90 quid. Just don't use their rods, buy decent ones from a welding supplies.

Rapulum_Dei
Sep 7, 2009

Jaded Burnout posted:

After everyone's advice (and about five minutes staring at brands I've never heard of on welding supply websites) I've decided to try outsourcing first and only buy if that doesn't work out, but if/when that happens this suggestion is probably what I'm going to do, thanks :)

While poking around I also found an import 200A TIG/MIG/Stick AC/DC machine for 350 quid delivered which I'm sure is just chef kiss quality and definitely won't self-ignite.

Not sure about a 350 one but I know you can get a really decent Italian import AC TIG for about 800 that is fine for non-industrial use. TIG is slower and more deliberate that MIG, tbh I regret not going for it myself.

How heavy is the mains cable in your workshop? 180-220 MIG is about your limit on single phase and you’d want to have more than a single 2.5mm twin and earth cable.

Check if your local tech does welding evening classes. Not sure if they will now after the HSE updated the risk assessment on welding fumes to “we’re all going to die”

Ambrose Burnside
Aug 30, 2007

pensive
my personal experience, take it for what you will:
i learned on mig in an on-the-job sort of way with v limited practice of the "padding out plates by the electrode-pound" sort, and had to unlearn a ton of bad habits and minor lazinesses i picked up running wire out of a gun when i learned stick, it turns out i also didnt have much of a diagnostic sense for how to correct my own work before that (tho i thought i did).

i actually used to opt for oxy-acet wherever possible, i got frustrated with how arbitrary/unpredictable my mig welds sometimes turned out even when i was confident in my settings and prep. it was because oxyfuel welds absolutely do not present as cosmetically-great with the ease that MIG beads do, so even though the process was slower and more challenging, i had more confidence in my work. i wouldn't opt for oxyfuel nowadays outside heating/bending or artsy work w v light stock

Jaded Burnout
Jul 10, 2004


Rapulum_Dei posted:

How heavy is the mains cable in your workshop? 180-220 MIG is about your limit on single phase and you’d want to have more than a single 2.5mm twin and earth cable.

Not spec'd at this point, hence for now it would be done in the yard and then moved to a shop later on. But seeing as it's going to have machines in there no matter what it'll be on a decent breaker for sure. But single phase though.

shame on an IGA
Apr 8, 2005

My instructor's view was "Yeah MIG is way too easy and you won't learn anything, so I'll start you all out with 7018 on the stick machine, but that's only after you can pass a bend test lap welding 1/16th sheet with an oxy torch and no filler rod. You're never going to use a torch again after this BTW, have fun!"

Ambrose Burnside
Aug 30, 2007

pensive

shame on an IGA posted:

My instructor's view was "Yeah MIG is way too easy and you won't learn anything, so I'll start you all out with 7018 on the stick machine, but that's only after you can pass a bend test lap welding 1/16th sheet with an oxy torch and no filler rod. You're never going to use a torch again after this BTW, have fun!"

yeah ok this dude knows whats up, this is on reflection ACTUALLY exactly how i learned as well, lol. altho to be fair we were being taught by an old-school blacksmith teacher so you were going to practice until you could lay down an A+ tested-to-failure weld to his satisfaction even if it took a week, because OA is legitimately extremely useful to smiths for all sorts of things, if not usually conventional welding tasks

you cant really fairly recommend starting w OA to people who just want a means to stick metal together b/c, principles or no, it usually involves wasting a bunch of money on tank rentals you wont make good use of ever again and getting stuck with the worst possible process thatll technically work. but if you have the time and equipment and really want to *learn* *welding*, yes, you absolutely learn the OG process because it communicates the fundamentals clearly using semi-familiar means, and everything is slowed down for your convenience to boot. nothing better for learning the *real* core skills of hotwork in general, stuff like an intuitive feel for how heat travels through steel and changes its working and welding properties, aside from actual blacksmithing anyways. and then when you get to tig you'll hit the ground running, and tig is usually a v tricky process to pick up so this is a big asset

Ambrose Burnside fucked around with this message at 00:52 on Jul 5, 2019

mekilljoydammit
Jan 28, 2016

Me have motors that scream to 10,000rpm. Me have more cars than Pick and Pull
Unrelated to business talk stuff... thinking I'm going to rebuild my South Bend 10K but not sure what I'll find when I start digging in. What's red flags for "yeah, move on with your life"?

His Divine Shadow
Aug 7, 2000

I'm not a fascist. I'm a priest. Fascists dress up in black and tell people what to do.

Jaded Burnout posted:

While poking around I also found an import 200A TIG/MIG/Stick AC/DC machine for 350 quid delivered which I'm sure is just chef kiss quality and definitely won't self-ignite.

Yeah only good machine you will get for 350 is a used one...

Try this forum, it's UK based and can give the best UK localized help for welders IMO.

https://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/threads/which-welder.92380

His Divine Shadow
Aug 7, 2000

I'm not a fascist. I'm a priest. Fascists dress up in black and tell people what to do.
I have begun disassembling the vertical head on the deckel to service the spindle. This is about as far as I will go for now. I will work on the spindle later, based on my read through of other people doing this, it's best to have the head solidly mounted when you test the play (needs to be done to .001 mm) and the best place for that IMO is back in the machine.... I will probably paint the vertical head and other parts while I have them all apart.



cakesmith handyman
Jul 22, 2007

Pip-Pip old chap! Last one in is a rotten egg what what.

It's been fascinating watch you take this to pieces, please keep us updated.

honda whisperer
Mar 29, 2009

cakesmith handyman posted:

It's been fascinating watch you take this to pieces, please keep us updated.

Seconded

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Motronic
Nov 6, 2009
Probation
Can't post for 6 hours!

mekilljoydammit posted:

Unrelated to business talk stuff... thinking I'm going to rebuild my South Bend 10K but not sure what I'll find when I start digging in. What's red flags for "yeah, move on with your life"?

As I recall, headstock bearings are difficult to source and pretty expensive, and the half nut on the rod is the same. If both of those are bad I'd immediately stop and figure out replacements before I got into a rebuild. Same thing with any gears that are bad. They add up quick and some seems to be difficult to find (it depend on who's parting out what at the time you're looking).

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