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fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012
Yeah I haven't done 'this is an evil race' for any mortal creatures in a fantasy campaign in a decade cause it's boring and played out and has awful undertones.

Demons and undead and similar can still be inherently evil imo.

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Antivehicular
Dec 30, 2011


I wanna sing one for the cars
That are right now headed silent down the highway
And it's dark and there is nobody driving And something has got to give

Illithids actually require chemicals and "energies/essences" from sapient brains to survive, if I recall my crappy 3.x D&D lore correctly. I mean, they're not really great otherwise, but it never quite sat right with me to make their core evil act a biological necessity of a natural species (as opposed to undead where their entire existence is unnatural), and I feel like "species with an abhorrent need trying to do as little harm as they can" is way more interesting.

fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012

Antivehicular posted:

Illithids actually require chemicals and "energies/essences" from sapient brains to survive, if I recall my crappy 3.x D&D lore correctly. I mean, they're not really great otherwise, but it never quite sat right with me to make their core evil act a biological necessity of a natural species (as opposed to undead where their entire existence is unnatural), and I feel like "species with an abhorrent need trying to do as little harm as they can" is way more interesting.

Mindflayers aren't natural creatures. They're invaders from the Far Realm.

juggalo baby coffin
Dec 2, 2007

How would the dog wear goggles and even more than that, who makes the goggles?


fool_of_sound posted:

Yeah I haven't done 'this is an evil race' for any mortal creatures in a fantasy campaign in a decade cause it's boring and played out and has awful undertones.

Demons and undead and similar can still be inherently evil imo.

for me with undead it depends on the type of undead pretty heavily

like the types of undead where you have to be evil to become them, like how a mohrg only rises from the bodies of serial killers, then yeah they're gonna be evil. or stuff like Bodaks, who are created by exposure to raw, cosmic evil, and are evil in the same way that someone who danced around in the chernobyl core would be radioactive.

mindless undead i guess don't really have an alignment, but probably show up as evil on your alignment detector cause they're animated by dark magic.

liches are probably mostly evil, especially depending on what the ritual to become one entails. if you gotta sacrifice other people to become a lich, then yeah you're almost always gonna be a bad guy. but there are non-evil reasons for wanting to extend your life, like a wizard who needs more time to figure out how to avert some kind of planar-scale catastrophe or something. Or those elf liches who watch over the community, i forget the name of them.

mummies seem more neutral than anything. they are mostly interested in defending their home, which is fair enough. I guess stopping adventurers from taking loot makes them evil from an adventurer's perspective.

i think the type of undead most likely to not be evil is any type of sentient undead someone can be turned into against their will. Ghouls, vampires, wights, etc. They've got some feeding habits that predispose them towards doing bad things, and are ostracised by society, and might have some type of evil mentor/creator exerting control over them, but i think they should be 'mostly evil' rather than 'always evil'.

like at this point the redeemed vampire is such a trope that its almost a subversion of expectations to have vampires actually be evil. i'm more interested in the less photogenic undead as characters.



look how fun these guys from the Libris Mortis are. I think in that edition there was a way to become a mohrg through a curse or something, so not all of them were axiomatically evil.

one thing i always find odd is they talk a lot about negative energy with relation to the undead, and how that's what turns them evil. But as far as I'm aware, the negative and positive energy planes are elemental planes, unrelated to the morality-based outer planes. you can have evil positive energy beings, so it seems odd that some authors insist negative energy is always villainous.

i'm not saying i expect a lot of undead paladins, but maybe some undead guys who could Be In Society

Antivehicular posted:

Illithids actually require chemicals and "energies/essences" from sapient brains to survive, if I recall my crappy 3.x D&D lore correctly. I mean, they're not really great otherwise, but it never quite sat right with me to make their core evil act a biological necessity of a natural species (as opposed to undead where their entire existence is unnatural), and I feel like "species with an abhorrent need trying to do as little harm as they can" is way more interesting.

yeah, in the uuuh lords of madness book, there was a bunch of stuff about illithid biology. in that edition I think they were a species who did some weird time loop poo poo to come back in time before they were created, so their origins were unclear. But there was also the possibility of good illithids, in situations where either some part of the person who got taken over managed to survive the process, or an illithid had some type of experience while outside of the control of the elder brain that made them reconsider their life. There's a couple of good aligned illithids in canon, unless they've changed that.

juggalo baby coffin fucked around with this message at 02:56 on Jun 29, 2019

fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012
Yeah I'm running my next game in Ravnica and expect my players to be cordially interacting with demons and undead and stuff that are just Regular People With 9-5 Jobs. It depends a lot on the setting though.

Also negative energy is 'evil' in D&D because it leaks out of your undead and poisons the area around it. If a lich hangs out in a place long enough it becomes and evil swamp or a cursed desert or whatever. Also mindless undead powered by negative energy are driven to extinguish positive energy ie kill people.

juggalo baby coffin
Dec 2, 2007

How would the dog wear goggles and even more than that, who makes the goggles?


fool_of_sound posted:

Yeah I'm running my next game in Ravnica and expect my players to be cordially interacting with demons and undead and stuff that are just Regular People With 9-5 Jobs. It depends a lot on the setting though.

Also negative energy is 'evil' in D&D because it leaks out of your undead and poisons the area around it. If a lich hangs out in a place long enough it becomes and evil swamp or a cursed desert or whatever. Also mindless undead powered by negative energy are driven to extinguish positive energy ie kill people.

then i guess again it's a case of how you wind up undead. if you choose to become undead and gently caress up an environment by hanging around, then i guess thats evil in the same way as being a polluter is. but if you were made undead against your will, its like saying someone with a disease is evil for potentially being contagious.

i guess a larger problem is that fantasy nerds and fantasy writers are not all phd ethics professors or something.

Elfgames
Sep 11, 2011

Fun Shoe

Gort posted:

I do wish 4e (and D&D in general) didn't have the concepts of attrition and the "adventuring day" baked in as a default assumption. Occasionally in a campaign you might want to have a grinding slog where the heroes are down to the last dregs of their power, but D&D (through the use of mechanics like spell slots, daily powers, healing surges etc) assumes you want it all the time - the assumption is that you'll want several encounters before the heroes take a long rest and get everything back. If you do the opposite and just have a single encounter in which the heroes can blow through their full complement of resources, you end up with weird balance because that's not how the game was designed to be played.

This "several encounters before you rest" assumption, coupled with the generally long duration of 4e combats (which games like Strike have improved upon in a number of ways like combining the hit and damage rolls into a single d6 roll, removing small modifiers and changing "opportunity attacks" into a set amount of damage you just take automatically for doing something dangerous) means that it can feel like you spend a lot of the game in combat before non-combat stuff occurs. The official pre-written adventures like Keep On the Shadowfell were particularly guilty of this, with tons of combat encounters in adjacent rooms, with the plot only moving forward once lots of them are completed.

So, I'd like to see more tactical games built around the encounter as a balancing unit - you can rage once per encounter, you can cast this spell once per encounter, you heal back to full HP at the end of the fight, and so on.. That way I can run a murder mystery where the only combat is against the killer at the end, or I can run a twenty-room dungeon of traps and goblins, and the game remains balanced. Longer-duration stuff can still exist (it's nice to have something to fall back on if a fight's going wrong, after all) but it should exist as items like healing potions and scrolls that are used and then gone, or as effects like poisons, injuries and diseases on the negative side, rather than being baked into classes as daily powers or spells you only get back after a rest.

tl;dr: D&D 4e tactical combat is best when used in fewer, more interesting and climactic fights, but elements of its writing and design push it towards multiple less-interesting encounters, and that's a shame.

I mean running a mystery game in any edition of D&D sounds like a bad time? just sittin around for two or the sessions looking at all the cool powers i can't use. and a twenty room dungeon of traps and kobolds sounds like loving hell to me. but whatever 4e's traps as monster rules might actually be the only way to make that fun.

But the actual solution to both problems is to turn the resources 4e gives you into appropriate resources, so like a martial daily power instead lets you preform a feat of athleticism without a dice roll or spend a wizard daily for a burst of insight characters can spend healing surges for a safe haven to come up or to get some extra help from allies. then they're mechanically worn down for the big fight

Kaysette
Jan 5, 2009

~*Boston makes me*~
~*feel good*~

:wrongcity:

juggalo baby coffin posted:

yeah, in the uuuh lords of madness book, there was a bunch of stuff about illithid biology. in that edition I think they were a species who did some weird time loop poo poo to come back in time before they were created, so their origins were unclear. But there was also the possibility of good illithids, in situations where either some part of the person who got taken over managed to survive the process, or an illithid had some type of experience while outside of the control of the elder brain that made them reconsider their life. There's a couple of good aligned illithids in canon, unless they've changed that.

That is a great book and I’ve pulled a bunch of stuff from it for my fifth edition campaign. I like the idea that they don’t know how it happens due to the time fuckery but they feel they’re destined to rule the multiverse.

juggalo baby coffin
Dec 2, 2007

How would the dog wear goggles and even more than that, who makes the goggles?


Kaysette posted:

That is a great book and I’ve pulled a bunch of stuff from it for my fifth edition campaign. I like the idea that they don’t know how it happens due to the time fuckery but they feel they’re destined to rule the multiverse.

the end of 3.5 had a bunch of great books like that and the libris mortis, they really went hog wild on player character choices. there was a book called Sandstorm or something that was fairly unremarkable but had a great class that was like an inverse druid who turned the land into desert and could dehydrate people to death and eventually turned into a Dry Lich, which was like a desert type lich crusted in salt. it was super badass they let you become a lich, and the class seemed like it was a kind of druid pale master but not poo poo and disappointing like pale master.

edit: i think mummy was the word i was looking for, its like a mummy but you come back from your canopic jars if killed.

there was another class that let you become a lich, dread necromancer i think, but there was some weird rules clarification thing where you didnt actually get the lich template from it which made the whole class worthless because it wasnt good at all without the lich template

juggalo baby coffin fucked around with this message at 05:14 on Jun 29, 2019

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 5, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!




Covok
May 27, 2013

Yet where is that woman now? Tell me, in what heave does she reside? None of them. Because no God bothered to listen or care. If that is what you think it means to be a God, then you and all your teachings are welcome to do as that poor women did. And vanish from these realms forever.
I just ran the first game I've run into over a year. It was a Legend of the Elements game with two forum users. We were going to use the Genesys Hack "Avatar: The Second Age." But, the two people who joined because of the session never showed. And one our players didn't like the engine. The other optimized for it and he was interested. But they both agreed it was clunky. So, we opted for LoE since we used it once for a game over two years ago.

This game was a sequel and it branched out of an off-the-cuff idea from the old game. In the old game, one of the players became the superhero, Tigerhawk, to hide their identity after they were outed as an airbender. This happened in Yu Dao 50 years before the start of the A:TLA. They became a local legend overnight. Yu Dao became Republic city, the site of this game. So, there has been two tigerhawks since them. The newest one is being played by the same player as the original one, and the other player is playing the previous Tigerhawk who is now too old to be Tigerhawk and being blackmailed by the new one to teach them. They are both cops, but the new tigerhawk is an airbender and the old one is an earthbender. The whole thing is supposed to be like Batman: Beyond with Terry Migniss and Bruce Wayne.

I didn't have any plan for this session, but I worked out a plot really well. I had them start off with the old Tigerhawk, An Gang, getting a tip that the Creeping Crystals and the Triads were making a deal. After harassing Mako, they met there. An Gang tried to get Liu Jiang, the new Tigerhawk, to get the weight of the responsibility, but they didn't get it. They then got pseudo discovered because they meet in the tower of a church. So, since Liu Jiang landed with a thud, a sage came in. Liu Jiang faked being drunk and got the guy to leave him alone. Since Liu Jiang said his mother was religious in a bad way, we used this chance to establish some religion. The sage revealed that some people believe the four elements of a person (fire: ambition, water: flexibility, earth: fortitude, air: freedom) have to be in balance. Not relevant, but it will matter for Liu Jiang's mother later. Sinners are called "the imbalanced" and instead of "you need Jesus" people say "you need the avatar." With it being established a common sarcastic remark to that is "and when I needed him most, he vanished."

Back to the plot, they try to stop the meeting, but a bad roll lead Liu Jiang to literally fall in. Watching from a safe distance, An Gang realized this was a weapons deal. And, knowing the Creeping Crystals were coming, An Gang went all batman and brought a Racoon-Bear to eat the crystal. Which is what saved Liu Jiang's life. But, they got beaten up hard and had to blow up the warehouse. Liu Jiang got beat up because he was inexperienced and made mistakes and took bad risks. Like, going back for the money briefcase when he could have left with the more important weapon briefcase (he did get both in the end, but it lead to him breaking his shoulder). An Gaang got beat up because he had to get involved and was too old and physically broken from his years of Tigerhawk and kept being hindered by his body. Liu Jiang had to blow up the warehouse to escape, though An Gang got out on his own.

Liu Jiang chose not to land on a woman and instead lost his time to escape the cops. He was found by Li Bae, a crooked cop who he agreed to turn a blind eye to for some reason (there was a reason but I forgot), and tried to explain the situation. Li Bae took the money -- thinking Tigerhawk was bribing him -- and basically said "so you stopped a drug deal where they were selling drugs for 1,000 Yuan. Good work." There was 50,000 Yuan. Li Bae took 48,000. And then Tigerhawk snagged 1,000 for himself. An Gang saw the whole thing.

An Gang took the weapon briefcase and examined it. He found a bomb tied to the creeping crystal. He discovered it reacted to inanimate materials, when normal creeping crystal only responds to organic material. He then scolded Liu Jiang when he showed up for showing the cops that Tigerhawk could be bribed, thus making it easier for cops to be corrupt in the city. An Gang had already deduced the Equalists made the bomb, but neither him nor Liu Jiang could find out why. Since they had spent so much chi already, a bomb went off nearby.

They rushed off and saw a building covered in creeping crystal, with it attack two surrounding buildings. They helped the republic city fire department -- a mixture of firebenders and watebenders -- and the police deal with things. An Gang told Liu Jiang to consider where he was needed. Liu Jiang realized that he should figure out what buildings were also being affected, not the one blown up. The blown up one was just a cabbage corp small office. The one to the left was a library. And the right one was the Department of Immigrant Affairs. We had already established in the opening narration the city was going through the refudgee crisis due to the death of the Earth Queen. Liu Jiang went to help there. An Gang then went off to announce that Tigerhawk was back to the cops wondering who the masked figure was.

Tigerhawk deduced the target were the applications and used his air-bending to get them all out. Bei Fong ordered everyone to get out. So the fire department got all the records off the floor and out of the desks. And, due to the roll, we said noting was missed. Then the entire Earthbending police force lifted the buildings together (they were only 1 to 2 stories each) and drop them in the canal. Since creeping crystal is canonically rock candy, the water dissolved it. The weakened Lin Bei Fong was annoyed to see another Tigerhawk. She used her mother's technique of seismic sense (because the player, IRL, accidentally refereed to her as her boss because she forgot her character was still dressed as tigerhawk for reals) to discern this was a new Tigerhawk. Too weak to fight him, she threatened Tigerhawk by saying he needed to understand she doesn't allow for vigilantes. To which Tigerhawk -- half-scared, half-respectful -- fled without saying a word. Ending the session with Lin, unknowingly, telling An Gang that his favorite citizen was back -- not knowing An Gang was the old Tigerhawk -- and saying she hopes this one wasn't nearly annoying as the last one. To which, An Gang said he'd bet the new one was twice as annoying.

It was fun, it went well, and its the first session I ran in a year. I was nervous I'd be rusty, but things went great. And I now got a plot for the entire current adventure. I also just posted all this because I was excited and because I know I'll forget so this serves as a note for myself later.

Baron Snow
Feb 8, 2007



Bespoke rules for your small, jewel-like objects of magic and wonder.

Kaysette
Jan 5, 2009

~*Boston makes me*~
~*feel good*~

:wrongcity:
I saw a four hour long apocalypse game make it through two whole rounds. That solidified my decision to never play much above 1500-1750 pts (this was in 5th-6th Ed 40k so idk what points are like now.)

That Old Tree
Jun 24, 2012

nah


Okay, so, back in the 90's (I think) there was an "Apocalypse" WH40k game that I got into really heavy for like a year or two. It seems like this new game's rules are based on that one.

Except the old one I was into had completely different models, where a squad of Marines was a little plastic strip with five teeny-tiny plastic mans on it, and tanks were the size of silver dollars, and your movement was measured in centimeters, because no one in their right mind should want to gently caress around setting up and playing literally hundreds of individually-based inch tall models. (He said, having played ImpGuard in the late 00's.)

I really liked it. All the order phase stuff was kind of overcomplicated, but it really felt like a much more squad-based tactical game than 2nd Edition (which I started with), where apart from squad coherency every individual model was basically doing its own thing. That's also why I liked 5th edition (I think), because it was much more about whole squads doing things. (Maybe 3rd and 4th did this too, but I wasn't into the game then.)

I also was much more willing to paint a thimble-sized dreadnought without a lot of fine detail than trying to wrangle the full-sized normal models.

But this version of the game…uses existing, regular-play models? The one YT batrep I could find seemed fairly small scale, but the GW video presentation seemed to indicate they expect you to be fielding hundreds of models. As a core gameplay experience

Utter madness.

The Deleter
May 22, 2010
You're thinking of Epic: Armageddon. Apocalypse has always been about shoving as many 40k models onto a table as possible, except in this version you might actually finish a game.

That Old Tree
Jun 24, 2012

nah


The Deleter posted:

You're thinking of Epic: Armageddon. Apocalypse has always been about shoving as many 40k models onto a table as possible, except in this version you might actually finish a game.

Ah, yes, it was Epic!

This is still utterly insane.

When I was looking for batreps I found some absolutely bonkers 600k point game.

Len
Jan 21, 2008

Pouches, bandages, shoulderpad, cyber-eye...

Bitchin'!


I played a couple apocalypse games in 2010 or so and jfc was it a shitshow. Roll 200 dice. Pick them up and roll again. Now they get to roll them.

The Deleter
May 22, 2010

That Old Tree posted:

Ah, yes, it was Epic!

This is still utterly insane.

When I was looking for batreps I found some absolutely bonkers 600k point game.

I'm sort of curious as to how this new ruleset would play out since it's basically epic and there are a much saner amount of dice being rolled but a) I already have a big 28mm game in my life and b) just do Epic again please GW.

Antivehicular
Dec 30, 2011


I wanna sing one for the cars
That are right now headed silent down the highway
And it's dark and there is nobody driving And something has got to give

Len posted:

I played a couple apocalypse games in 2010 or so and jfc was it a shitshow. Roll 200 dice. Pick them up and roll again. Now they get to roll them.

I'm having flashbacks to the two-year Exalted 1E campaign I played in where the PCs were around Essence 5 in the endgame, and the Abyssal player wrote a graphing calculator program for his default combat turn because the dice were getting unwieldy. I think he had like five attacks with a 30-die pool each?

juggalo baby coffin
Dec 2, 2007

How would the dog wear goggles and even more than that, who makes the goggles?


do people actually run games with poo poo like the torture rules in the book of vile darkness? do those rules get used by people? are there weirdo roleplaying groups who sit around roleplaying their characters torturing people in detail?

god knows i like playing villainous characters, but torture or sex crimes has never been somewhere i want to take that.

That Old Tree
Jun 24, 2012

nah


juggalo baby coffin posted:

do people actually run games with poo poo like the torture rules in the book of vile darkness? do those rules get used by people? are there weirdo roleplaying groups who sit around roleplaying their characters torturing people in detail?

god knows i like playing villainous characters, but torture or sex crimes has never been somewhere i want to take that.

This didn't involve some published rules that I know of, but there was some weird gross D&D game on some Youtube channel somewhere, where the frequent sexual escapades were all rolled out and stuff. It was the subject of much derision in some long-forgotten grogs.txt posts.

I've read a few posts scattered about the internet of people who are really into specifically what Black Tokyo is laying down, rules and all.

Oh, and then there was that weird narrative-ish dungeon delving game that RPGSite liked despite its story-game-ness, since it was Unflinching Art About A Hard World because there was a magical curse that forced a rape to happen or something.

Yawgmoth
Sep 10, 2003

This post is cursed!

juggalo baby coffin posted:

do people actually run games with poo poo like the torture rules in the book of vile darkness? do those rules get used by people?
I use the addiction/drugs rules and the rules for evil-tainted locations out of BoVD, does that count?

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy

juggalo baby coffin posted:

theres a lot of weirdly fascist ideology coded into fantasy it seems like, and i wonder if the resistance to monster adventurers and removing the alignment restrictions on races that a lot of grognards have is tied to their lovely reactionary politics.

not only does materialism make for less right-wing gaming, it also usually means that the PCs have a better shot at influencing the development of the world - if peoples derive their motivations from material conditions, you can change those more readily than trying to get devils to no longer hate angels or whatever

juggalo baby coffin
Dec 2, 2007

How would the dog wear goggles and even more than that, who makes the goggles?


Yawgmoth posted:

I use the addiction/drugs rules and the rules for evil-tainted locations out of BoVD, does that count?

nah that stuffs all cool, its just specifically the torture rules. it seems like a really weird thing to want to do play-by-play.

Plutonis
Mar 25, 2011

juggalo baby coffin posted:

nah that stuffs all cool, its just specifically the torture rules. it seems like a really weird thing to want to do play-by-play.

Is it?

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 5, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!

juggalo baby coffin posted:

do people actually run games with poo poo like the torture rules in the book of vile darkness? do those rules get used by people? are there weirdo roleplaying groups who sit around roleplaying their characters torturing people in detail?

I think the most explicit moment I had of torture in a game was Giovanni Chronicles which has players being taken in one at a time to be tortured. I have no idea what exactly happened with the other players but I just remember my character making those ridiculous Fire Bad rolls vampires are supposed to fail and convincing them pretty quickly that it wasn't going to be fruitful. That adventure was full of that sort of "advanced roleplaying". :rolleyes:

Meinberg
Oct 9, 2011

inspired by but legally distinct from CATS (2019)
I don’t think I’ve ever used torture rules in a tabletop, but I have been in a larp that included torture rules, and been on both sides of torture scenes. It’s... weird. Looking back at it, I don’t feel super comfortable about it, even within the context of a horror game, even in a situation where all players involved had the ability to dip out if it got too intense. Not only does it suggest that torture work (it super doesn’t), it also seems needlessly, gratuitously malicious. There’s a certain high to chasing after those super intense experience, but it’s not really safe in the long term, and it’s ideologically unsound.

Yawgmoth
Sep 10, 2003

This post is cursed!

juggalo baby coffin posted:

nah that stuffs all cool, its just specifically the torture rules. it seems like a really weird thing to want to do play-by-play.
It is, very much so. The only time I've ever used the torture rules for any game was in a game of L5R, and even then it was less using torture as being the worst "good cop" ever and threatening the potential for all sorts of terrible things. It still felt pretty wrong and gross, but there's a lot about that system that actively inhibits fun so I don't really seek it out anymore.

Lurdiak
Feb 26, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.


I once set up a situation where an ally of the PCs was torturing a guy who was suspected of helping the villains to show that his group was unforgiving of traitors and maybe not as trustworthy as they thought but instead they were like "I guess we gotta help them torture this dude????? Why are you making us do this?"

That's on me I guess, sometimes it's not clear to the players how on-rails a story is.

Coolness Averted posted:

They might've meant decided, but the dice still gotta roll? I've seen that happen in a lot of games in many systems. Less the whole alpha strike actually ends the encounter and more "Ok, well action economy is now skewed to the winners, unless the DM fudges stuff or there's an incredible stretch of bad luck, but really it's just time to wait out the clock" -and yes I know a good GM would wrap it up to keep the story going after the players have had their fun or skip forward to post capture/defeat if they players were losing.

Yeah I don't mean literally over, I mean like "the enemy caster is nearly dead and the henchmen are blinded".

mike12345
Jul 14, 2008

"Whether the Earth was created in 7 days, or 7 actual eras, I'm not sure we'll ever be able to answer that. It's one of the great mysteries."





Anyone know a good sourcebook for ships? Like from antiquity to today, that would be optimal. I checked if GURPS has something maybe for the napoleonic period, but the only thing comparable that comes close is GURPS Spaceships. Tbh it doesn't need to have an rpg context - a nice picture book with some historic tidbits would suffice.

Joe Slowboat
Nov 9, 2016

Higgledy-Piggledy Whale Statements



mike12345 posted:

Anyone know a good sourcebook for ships? Like from antiquity to today, that would be optimal. I checked if GURPS has something maybe for the napoleonic period, but the only thing comparable that comes close is GURPS Spaceships. Tbh it doesn't need to have an rpg context - a nice picture book with some historic tidbits would suffice.

The Time-Life illustrated coffeetable book set on ships through the ages is quite solid for illustrations (even if it's a pretty Eurocentric history of sail); a library near you might have the set?

E: what kind of ships are we talking here? 18th century tall ships, Roman galleons, Viking longships, Indian Ocean trading dhows, Polynesian proa or oceanic lateen, modern racing ships... there's an immense wealth of different styles through the ages.

EE: Ships are good, add ships to your games everyone.

Joe Slowboat fucked around with this message at 21:16 on Jun 30, 2019

Libertad!
Oct 30, 2013

You can have the last word, but I'll have the last laugh!

juggalo baby coffin posted:

theres a lot of weirdly fascist ideology coded into fantasy it seems like, and i wonder if the resistance to monster adventurers and removing the alignment restrictions on races that a lot of grognards have is tied to their lovely reactionary politics.

i dont really think any material plane creature should be axiomatically evil, i think the 'always chaotic evil' stuff should be reserved for outsiders who are the literal embodiment of concepts. otherwise a sentient creature who can't choose their morality isn't really sentient. i realise a society can make it more or less difficult to change, but a drow baby raised by loving parents in some other society should turn out the same as them, if the kid is just automatically evil despite being loved and raised with good values, its some weird :biotruths: poo poo.

ofc theres always like instinct stuff, the same way chimps are pretty sentient but still succumb to the impulse to rip peoples dicks off despite being raised well. an illithid raised in human society would probably eat a few brains before they learned how to control their instinct (if illithids were babies, i think they get born fully formed when they take over people as brain worms). but that makes for a more interesting character in the end.

I recall one of the forgotten realms books heavily implied that Lolth was a puppeteer goddess who would psychically whisper into the minds of dark elves ever since they were babies. And that those who did not act in her way of an ideal drow would start getting constant threats and terrible dreams. Thus the reason why so many drow are Chaotic Evil is because they're effectively suffering under a music torture device that triggers for days if not years on end if they don't act like a serial killer.

Which if anything heavily implies that the drow are more victims than anything.

Coolness Averted
Feb 20, 2007

oh don't worry, I can't smell asparagus piss, it's in my DNA

GO HOGG WILD!
🐗🐗🐗🐗🐗
Torture is definitely one of those things you need to discuss and make sure everyone is on the same page about. Also if it's an option in game what is omay and what isn't. A system for it also makes sense specifically as a 'look we're not gonna go into graphic detail here, let's roll dice'
Only two times I can recall it really coming up as something 'on screen' with my groups it was just a flavor for intimidation checks. With one being oue tiefling rogue 'bad copping' and mostly spelling out the terrible things he'd do to a captured enemy if he didn't get info (with no actual torture happening). The other time it was specifically a character doi g something horrific as a sort of signal they were going crazy.

juggalo baby coffin
Dec 2, 2007

How would the dog wear goggles and even more than that, who makes the goggles?


i mean ive done a shadowrun game where we accidentally set the guy we were meant to kidnap on fire while trying to intimidate him using fire magic, which i guess you could count as torture. we were in a moving vehicle at the time so him being on fire was a big problem, so he got kicked out of the car onto the highway and hit by multiple vehicles.

My character was also a cybernetics addicted murderer with chainsaw hands, who chopped people's legs off as a go-to move. He would eventually go on to replace his brain with the brain of a military-grade experimental cyborg, which as you'd expect killed him and made him into a more reasonable person. so the game had a pretty slapstick attitude to violence and death.

I think the threat of torture or even a character doing something horrible can be used effectively and tastefully in a roleplaying session, but the rules im referring to as being pretty psycho are stuff like this:

quote:

DEVICE DESCRIPTIONS
Additional sinister devices and other forms of torture exist beyond those presented here. Use the devices described
below as a guide to determine the game effects of other forms of torture.

Branding Iron/Poker: Heated in hot coals, this iron rod is used to create painful but nonfatal burns. The burn deals
1d3 points of damage and allows one Intimidate check.

Dagger: Any weapon could be used as a device of torture, though traditional weapons do their jobs too well—the risk
of killing the victim too quickly becomes a concern. If a dagger is used as a torture device, each use deals 2d4 points of damage and allows one Intimidate check.

Hot Lead: The torturer melts lead, then pours it on the victim’s skin. Often the palm, the arm, or the belly is the target, but sometimes torturers drip lead on the eyelids or other delicate tissues. Each use deals 1d3 points of damage and allows one Intimidate check.

Iron Maiden: This coffin-shaped iron box is laden with spikes on the interior surfaces. Anyone placed inside is
pierced dozens of times, and any movement causes more pain. The iron maiden has several settings that determine how tightly the two sides come together when the device is closed. At the low setting, anyone inside takes 1 point of damage per round. The moderate setting deals 5 points of damage, the severe setting deals 10 points of damage, and the terminal setting deals 50 points of damage each round. Once the iron maiden is closed to any setting, the torturer can make an Intimidate check every round.

Jaw Breaker: This wood and metal device is like a reverse thumbscrew. The torturer inserts the jaw breaker into the victim’s mouth, then turns a small wheel. As the wheel turns, two opposing plates force the victim’s mouth wider and wider, breaking teeth and eventually the jawbone. The jaw breaker can also be used on the victim in other places.
Each use deals 2d4 points of damage and allows one Intimidate check. The jaw breaker must generally be removed for the victim to speak coherently

Scalpel/Flenser: A finely crafted knife with a short, sharp blade, the scalpel is used by surgeons to cut away diseased flesh. When used by a torturer, the scalpel pares lengths of skin away, then removes a digit or an earlobe.
Each use of a scalpel deals 1d6 points of damage and allows one Intimidate check. Flensers are similar knives used to remove the skin from a body.

Thumb Screws:This small wood and metal device slowly crushes the thumb or finger of a victim. It causes a lot of pain, but deals only 1d2 points of damage per use. Each time
the thumbscrews tighten, the torturer can make another Intimidate check

from the book of vile darkness

Plutonis
Mar 25, 2011

Seems like the thumbscrews are the best option there since it deals low damage and therefore is less likely to horribly kill the NPC you are going Reservoir Dogs on.

juggalo baby coffin
Dec 2, 2007

How would the dog wear goggles and even more than that, who makes the goggles?


do youuuu wanna know how i got these scarsssss???

i took the Feat

quote:

DEFORMITY (FACE) [VILE]
Because of intentional self-mutilation, the character has a
hideous face.
Prerequisite: Willing Deformity.
Benefit: The character gains a +2 circumstance bonus on
Intimidate checks and a +2 deformity bonus on Diplomacy
checks dealing with evil creatures of a different type.

Kai Tave
Jul 2, 2012
Fallen Rib

Plutonis posted:

Seems like the thumbscrews are the best option there since it deals low damage and therefore is less likely to horribly kill the NPC you are going Reservoir Dogs on.

Looking over the list all of these things seem to be "this device does X amount of damage and lets you make One (1) Intimidate check" which raises the question of why the gently caress you need an itemized list of torture implements when they all basically do exactly the same thing. Even if you really want blow-by-blow rules for torture, these are lame.

juggalo baby coffin
Dec 2, 2007

How would the dog wear goggles and even more than that, who makes the goggles?


quote:

Violated Horn: Also a quasi-magical item, the violated horn is a unicorn’s horn that has been removed from a stillliving unicorn, leaving the creature crippled and in constant, terrible pain. For a violated horn to have special power, it must physically violate a victim during a perverse religious ritual conducted atop an altar dedicated to an evil god. The character performing the ritual must succeed at a Knowledge (arcana) check (DC 20) to perform the ritual properly, and no second tries are possible with that particular horn if the first check fails. Once a violated horn is powered, its possessor can break the horn at any time thereafter and be immediately transported to the site of the ritual as if a word of recall spell had been cast.

imagine being someones henchman and seeing your boss warp in from an evil quest and just sighing cause you know now you have to go dildo someone with a unicorn horn again so the big man can have another ride home.

Plutonis
Mar 25, 2011

Dude making a living of ambushing unicorns on the woods, leaping rear end first into their horns, snapping them and running away to sell them to evil overlords.

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juggalo baby coffin
Dec 2, 2007

How would the dog wear goggles and even more than that, who makes the goggles?


Plutonis posted:

Dude making a living of ambushing unicorns on the woods, leaping rear end first into their horns, snapping them and running away to sell them to evil overlords.

hahaha that enchanted +4 anus of breaking is paying for itself!

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