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paul_soccer10
Mar 28, 2016

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
:synpa:

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Shame Boy
Mar 2, 2010

Cybernetic Vermin posted:

it is easy and good to poo poo on influencers, but it is the one bit of online advertisement that i can see at least has a chance of working (otoh, i forget the name of the goon who did ad buys and had metrics, but they claimed one could as well flush the money down the toilet)

At least in terms of "getting youtube people to hock your products as part of their video" it definitely works sometimes, which is more than you can say for... virtually every other kind of advertising. However that "sometimes" is pretty unpredictable and companies really have no idea what to do so they just shotgun products at as many people as possible hoping one of them works.

Jel Shaker
Apr 19, 2003

Cybernetic Vermin posted:

it is easy and good to poo poo on influencers, but it is the one bit of online advertisement that i can see at least has a chance of working (otoh, i forget the name of the goon who did ad buys and had metrics, but they claimed one could as well flush the money down the toilet)

well the current trend is Micro-fluencers, those with relatively small small but dedicated followings, because advertisers have slowly come to realize that Insta-fluencer 400000 followers, might actually have 400000 bot followers

(also its easier to bribe and hide under advertising laws)

Shame Boy
Mar 2, 2010


I really do not like how much "Prime Day!" is catching on as some sort of thing. I mean I know Twitch is owned by Amazon so it's expected here but there's so many other companies that are doing poo poo for it that have nothing to do with Amazon, maybe just selling their poo poo and that's it, and I hear about it from a lot of places I did not expect, and it's real gross and I hate it.

Shame Boy
Mar 2, 2010

Jel Shaker posted:

well the current trend is Micro-fluencers, those with relatively small small but dedicated followings, because advertisers have slowly come to realize that Insta-fluencer 400000 followers, might actually have 400000 bot followers

(also its easier to bribe and hide under advertising laws)

From what I've seen it "works" if you actually do research on who you're trying to get to sell your product to see if it's actually something their viewers would give a gently caress about, and collaborate with them so they actually work it into whatever thing they do and get some actual use out of the promo. However that's hard so generally companies outsource it to a marketing firm who tries to boil down all the different people into easily-spreadsheetable categories

Shame Boy
Mar 2, 2010

From that polygon article:

quote:

The blog post announcing the QVC-style stream is dripping with attempts at self-aware humor, like this bit about the hosts for the broadcast:

“They’re all currently locked in a windowless room watching an almost unhealthy amount of infomercials to get ready.”

Ha ha ha, we sure do have fun here at Twitch Amazon Capital Holdings Group Ltd.

Imagined
Feb 2, 2007
https://youtu.be/QREeweMWTZk

H.P. Hovercraft
Jan 12, 2004

one thing a computer can do that most humans can't is be sealed up in a cardboard box and sit in a warehouse
Slippery Tilde
amazon's had a qvc thing going on their front page for a little while now

Coolness Averted
Feb 20, 2007

oh don't worry, I can't smell asparagus piss, it's in my DNA

GO HOGG WILD!
🐗🐗🐗🐗🐗
so irony is the new literal?

Renaissance Robot
Oct 10, 2010

Bite my furry metal ass

Jel Shaker posted:

well the current trend is Micro-fluencers, those with relatively small small but dedicated followings, because advertisers have slowly come to realize that Insta-fluencer 400000 followers, might actually have 400000 bot followers

(also its easier to bribe and hide under advertising laws)

Why choose between being a contract-signing corporate sellout or taking the path of 1000 true fans when you could do both!

Jel Shaker
Apr 19, 2003

commercialising irony is the new trend , and by definition can not be displaced

Shame Boy
Mar 2, 2010

Coolness Averted posted:

so irony is the new literal?

Irony means doing the exact same thing you've always been doing but inserting insufferable bullshit to show that gosh guys we're a big multinational corporation but we don't take ourselves too seriously!!!

See also every single brand twitter account

voiceless anal fricative
May 6, 2007

I think it's more like shameless self-awareness is the new trend. Brands have been using irony for ages. But now Nike could advertise with some poo poo like

Just Do It for 50c/day to enrich our CEO

and so long as they put it out on the right platform and apologised for it on the right platform it'd increase sales

Fried Watermelon
Dec 29, 2008


just like ironic racism is still racism, ironic marketing is marketing and should be stopped

Ruffian Price
Sep 17, 2016

OK Soda still did it better

I got the tude now
Jul 22, 2007

H.P. Hovercraft posted:

amazon's had a qvc thing going on their front page for a little while now

amazon's been internet walmart since the day it launched

upsidedown
Dec 30, 2008
https://twitter.com/paulozoom/status/1144132955461341186

Hollandia
Jul 27, 2007

rattus rattus


Grimey Drawer

Hollandia has issued a correction as of 01:45 on Jun 30, 2019

voiceless anal fricative
May 6, 2007

One could argue that guillotines cut people's heads off. But to say that guillotines cause beheadings would be misleading.

Taintrunner
Apr 10, 2017

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
I had to dig this up again for another thread but I actually think it is relevant to this thread (should start at 10:30 automatically)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76VwCNZvQ1g&t=630s

a new study bible!
Feb 2, 2009



BIG DICK NICK
A Philadelphia Legend
Fly Eagles Fly


oh my god the subway ad

H.P. Hovercraft
Jan 12, 2004

one thing a computer can do that most humans can't is be sealed up in a cardboard box and sit in a warehouse
Slippery Tilde

weird how amazon is only just now responding to these critics when they're not the republican president

https://mobile.twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1021388295618682881

Powershift
Nov 23, 2009


H.P. Hovercraft posted:

weird how amazon is only just now responding to these critics when they're not the republican president

https://mobile.twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1021388295618682881

They're greedy, not stupid.

3D Megadoodoo
Nov 25, 2010

Powershift posted:

They're greedy, not stupid.

Absolute greed is extremely stupid by any reasonable metric.

Mill Village
Jul 27, 2007

Nothing says capitalism like lovely recording contracts. Part of me doesn’t feel too bad for Taylor Swift because she still has hundreds of millions of dollars, but it’s kinda lovely that someone as successful as she is has no control over her music.

https://taylorswift.tumblr.com/post/185958366550/for-years-i-asked-pleaded-for-a-chance-to-own-my

quote:

For years I asked, pleaded for a chance to own my work. Instead I was given an opportunity to sign back up to Big Machine Records and ‘earn’ one album back at a time, one for every new one I turned in. I walked away because I knew once I signed that contract, Scott Borchetta would sell the label, thereby selling me and my future. I had to make the excruciating choice to leave behind my past. Music I wrote on my bedroom floor and videos I dreamed up and paid for from the money I earned playing in bars, then clubs, then arenas, then stadiums.

Some fun facts about today’s news: I learned about Scooter Braun’s purchase of my masters as it was announced to the world. All I could think about was the incessant, manipulative bullying I’ve received at his hands for years.

Like when Kim Kardashian orchestrated an illegally recorded snippet of a phone call to be leaked and then Scooter got his two clients together to bully me online about it. (See photo) Or when his client, Kanye West, organized a revenge porn music video which strips my body naked. Now Scooter has stripped me of my life’s work, that I wasn’t given an opportunity to buy. Essentially, my musical legacy is about to lie in the hands of someone who tried to dismantle it.

This is my worst case scenario. This is what happens when you sign a deal at fifteen to someone for whom the term ‘loyalty’ is clearly just a contractual concept. And when that man says ‘Music has value’, he means its value is beholden to men who had no part in creating it.

When I left my masters in Scott’s hands, I made peace with the fact that eventually he would sell them. Never in my worst nightmares did I imagine the buyer would be Scooter. Any time Scott Borchetta has heard the words ‘Scooter Braun’ escape my lips, it was when I was either crying or trying not to. He knew what he was doing; they both did. Controlling a woman who didn’t want to be associated with them. In perpetuity. That means forever.

Thankfully, I am now signed to a label that believes I should own anything I create. Thankfully, I left my past in Scott’s hands and not my future. And hopefully, young artists or kids with musical dreams will read this and learn about how to better protect themselves in a negotiation. You deserve to own the art you make.

mycomancy
Oct 16, 2016

Mill Village posted:

Nothing says capitalism like lovely recording contracts. Part of me doesn’t feel too bad for Taylor Swift because she still has hundreds of millions of dollars, but it’s kinda lovely that someone as successful as she is has no control over her music.

https://taylorswift.tumblr.com/post/185958366550/for-years-i-asked-pleaded-for-a-chance-to-own-my

For every Taylor Swift there's a thousand nobodies who have the exact same thing happen to them.

:thermidor: record pigs.

T-man
Aug 22, 2010


Talk shit, get bzzzt.

One thing I think we should be yelling at alt-right gamers: without capitalism you can pirate every videogame ever made, forever. Old, new, we have the means of making unlimited copies, organized and patched, without ever having to go to gamespot to pay 60 bucks for an unlock code. Imagine a future where thousands of sweaty gamer nerds have the time to make their pet project. "Intellectual Property" is a way of turning an infinite resource into a finite, worse one and anyone whose job is predicated on copyright enforcement gets the wall dirty looks in the gay communism refectory.

Ruffian Price
Sep 17, 2016

yeah the twitter yellers don't actually play videogames so that doesn't matter to em

The Nastier Nate
May 22, 2005

All aboard the corona bus!

HONK! HONK!


Yams Fan

Mill Village posted:

Nothing says capitalism like lovely recording contracts. Part of me doesn’t feel too bad for Taylor Swift because she still has hundreds of millions of dollars, but it’s kinda lovely that someone as successful as she is has no control over her music.

https://taylorswift.tumblr.com/post/185958366550/for-years-i-asked-pleaded-for-a-chance-to-own-my

You can feel bad for all the musicians getting hosed over way worse who aren't Taylor Swift, most of which don't have even a fraction of the leverage she does in her ability to sell out stadiums.

Shame Boy
Mar 2, 2010

Oh no, my artistic integrity might be compromised! Get one of my many shirtless buff male butlers to bring me my solid gold pipe and a thousand dollar bill to light it with, I need to calm down!

Moridin920
Nov 15, 2007

by FactsAreUseless
The recording industry preys on children and pimps them out while some middle aged Swedes write all the music.

mycomancy
Oct 16, 2016

Moridin920 posted:

The recording industry preys on children and pimps them out while some middle aged Swedes write all the music.

Ruffian Price
Sep 17, 2016

quote:

“… Baby One More Time,” the Max Martin song that made Britney Spears’s career, was declined by TLC. Spears’s team later passed on “Umbrella,” which made Rihanna a star.

Fried Watermelon
Dec 29, 2008


Research MKUltra

Coolness Averted
Feb 20, 2007

oh don't worry, I can't smell asparagus piss, it's in my DNA

GO HOGG WILD!
🐗🐗🐗🐗🐗

Fried Watermelon posted:

Research MKUltra

an okay track, but I prefer earlier muse

Peanut President
Nov 5, 2008

by Athanatos

Shame Boy posted:

Oh no, my artistic integrity might be compromised! Get one of my many shirtless buff male butlers to bring me my solid gold pipe and a thousand dollar bill to light it with, I need to calm down!

i mean the point is if they are such fuckheads they'd kill the golden goose in Taylor Swift they are undoubtedly doing worse to literally everyone else

starkebn
May 18, 2004

"Oooh, got a little too serious. You okay there, little buddy?"
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/boeings-737-max-software-outsourced-204657048.html

quote:

Boeing’s 737 Max Software Outsourced to $9-an-Hour Engineers

(Bloomberg) -- It remains the mystery at the heart of Boeing Co.’s 737 Max crisis: how a company renowned for meticulous design made seemingly basic software mistakes leading to a pair of deadly crashes. Longtime Boeing engineers say the effort was complicated by a push to outsource work to lower-paid contractors.

The Max software -- plagued by issues that could keep the planes grounded months longer after U.S. regulators this week revealed a new flaw -- was developed at a time Boeing was laying off experienced engineers and pressing suppliers to cut costs.

Increasingly, the iconic American planemaker and its subcontractors have relied on temporary workers making as little as $9 an hour to develop and test software, often from countries lacking a deep background in aerospace -- notably India.

In offices across from Seattle’s Boeing Field, recent college graduates employed by the Indian software developer HCL Technologies Ltd. occupied several rows of desks, said Mark Rabin, a former Boeing software engineer who worked in a flight-test group that supported the Max.

The coders from HCL were typically designing to specifications set by Boeing. Still, “it was controversial because it was far less efficient than Boeing engineers just writing the code,” Rabin said. Frequently, he recalled, “it took many rounds going back and forth because the code was not done correctly.”

Boeing’s cultivation of Indian companies appeared to pay other dividends. In recent years, it has won several orders for Indian military and commercial aircraft, such as a $22 billion one in January 2017 to supply SpiceJet Ltd. That order included 100 737-Max 8 jets and represented Boeing’s largest order ever from an Indian airline, a coup in a country dominated by Airbus.

Based on resumes posted on social media, HCL engineers helped develop and test the Max’s flight-display software, while employees from another Indian company, Cyient Ltd., handled software for flight-test equipment.


Costly Delay

In one post, an HCL employee summarized his duties with a reference to the now-infamous model, which started flight tests in January 2016: “Provided quick workaround to resolve production issue which resulted in not delaying flight test of 737-Max (delay in each flight test will cost very big amount for Boeing).”

Boeing said the company did not rely on engineers from HCL and Cyient for the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System, which has been linked to the Lion Air crash last October and the Ethiopian Airlines disaster in March. The Chicago-based planemaker also said it didn’t rely on either firm for another software issue disclosed after the crashes: a cockpit warning light that wasn’t working for most buyers.

“Boeing has many decades of experience working with supplier/partners around the world,” a company spokesman said. “Our primary focus is on always ensuring that our products and services are safe, of the highest quality and comply with all applicable regulations.”

In a statement, HCL said it “has a strong and long-standing business relationship with The Boeing Company, and we take pride in the work we do for all our customers. However, HCL does not comment on specific work we do for our customers. HCL is not associated with any ongoing issues with 737 Max.”

Story continues
Recent simulator tests by the Federal Aviation Administration suggest the software issues on Boeing’s best-selling model run deeper. The company’s shares fell this week after the regulator found a further problem with a computer chip that experienced a lag in emergency response when it was overwhelmed with data.

Engineers who worked on the Max, which Boeing began developing eight years ago to match a rival Airbus SE plane, have complained of pressure from managers to limit changes that might introduce extra time or cost.

“Boeing was doing all kinds of things, everything you can imagine, to reduce cost, including moving work from Puget Sound, because we’d become very expensive here,” said Rick Ludtke, a former Boeing flight controls engineer laid off in 2017. “All that’s very understandable if you think of it from a business perspective. Slowly over time it appears that’s eroded the ability for Puget Sound designers to design.”

Rabin, the former software engineer, recalled one manager saying at an all-hands meeting that Boeing didn’t need senior engineers because its products were mature. “I was shocked that in a room full of a couple hundred mostly senior engineers we were being told that we weren’t needed,” said Rabin, who was laid off in 2015.

The typical jetliner has millions of parts -- and millions of lines of code -- and Boeing has long turned over large portions of the work to suppliers who follow its detailed design blueprints.

Starting with the 787 Dreamliner, launched in 2004, it sought to increase profits by instead providing high-level specifications and then asking suppliers to design more parts themselves. The thinking was “they’re the experts, you see, and they will take care of all of this stuff for us,” said Frank McCormick, a former Boeing flight-controls software engineer who later worked as a consultant to regulators and manufacturers. “This was just nonsense.”

Sales are another reason to send the work overseas. In exchange for an $11 billion order in 2005 from Air India, Boeing promised to invest $1.7 billion in Indian companies. That was a boon for HCL and other software developers from India, such as Cyient, whose engineers were widely used in computer-services industries but not yet prominent in aerospace.

Rockwell Collins, which makes cockpit electronics, had been among the first aerospace companies to source significant work in India in 2000, when HCL began testing software there for the Cedar Rapids, Iowa-based company. By 2010, HCL employed more than 400 people at design, development and verification centers for Rockwell Collins in Chennai and Bangalore.

That same year, Boeing opened what it called a “center of excellence” with HCL in Chennai, saying the companies would partner “to create software critical for flight test.” In 2011, Boeing named Cyient, then known as Infotech, to a list of its “suppliers of the year” for design, stress analysis and software engineering on the 787 and the 747-8 at another center in Hyderabad.

The Boeing rival also relies in part on offshore engineers. In addition to supporting sales, the planemakers say global design teams add efficiency as they work around the clock. But outsourcing has long been a sore point for some Boeing engineers, who, in addition to fearing job losses say it has led to communications issues and mistakes.

Moscow Mistakes

Boeing has also expanded a design center in Moscow. At a meeting with a chief 787 engineer in 2008, one staffer complained about sending drawings back to a team in Russia 18 times before they understood that the smoke detectors needed to be connected to the electrical system, said Cynthia Cole, a former Boeing engineer who headed the engineers’ union from 2006 to 2010.

“Engineering started becoming a commodity,” said Vance Hilderman, who co-founded a company called TekSci that supplied aerospace contract engineers and began losing work to overseas competitors in the early 2000s.

U.S.-based avionics companies in particular moved aggressively, shifting more than 30% of their software engineering offshore versus 10% for European-based firms in recent years, said Hilderman, an avionics safety consultant with three decades of experience whose recent clients include most of the major Boeing suppliers.

With a strong dollar, a big part of the attraction was price. Engineers in India made around $5 an hour; it’s now $9 or $10, compared with $35 to $40 for those in the U.S. on an H1B visa, he said. But he’d tell clients the cheaper hourly wage equated to more like $80 because of the need for supervision, and he said his firm won back some business to fix mistakes.

HCL, once known as Hindustan Computers, was founded in 1976 by billionaire Shiv Nadar and now has more than $8.6 billion in annual sales. With 18,000 employees in the U.S. and 15,000 in Europe, HCL is a global company and has deep expertise in computing, said Sukamal Banerjee, a vice president. It has won business from Boeing on that basis, not on price, he said: “We came from a strong R&D background.”

Still, for the 787, HCL gave Boeing a remarkable price – free, according to Sam Swaro, an associate vice president who pitched HCL’s services at a San Diego conference sponsored by Avionics International magazine in June. He said the company took no up-front payments on the 787 and only started collecting payments based on sales years later, an “innovative business model” he offered to extend to others in the industry.

The 787 entered service three years late and billions of dollars over budget in 2011, in part because of confusion introduced by the outsourcing strategy. Under Dennis Muilenburg, a longtime Boeing engineer who became chief executive in 2015, the company has said that it planned to bring more work back in-house for its newest planes.

Engineer Backwater

The Max became Boeing’s top seller soon after it was offered in 2011. But for ambitious engineers, it was something of a “backwater,” said Peter Lemme, who designed the 767’s automated flight controls and is now a consultant. The Max was an update of a 50-year-old design, and the changes needed to be limited enough that Boeing could produce the new planes like cookie cutters, with few changes for either the assembly line or airlines. “As an engineer that’s not the greatest job,” he said.

Rockwell Collins, now a unit of United Technologies Corp., won the Max contract for cockpit displays, and it has relied in part on HCL engineers in India, Iowa and the Seattle area. A United Technologies spokeswoman didn’t respond to a request for comment.

Contract engineers from Cyient helped test flight test equipment. Charles LoveJoy, a former flight-test instrumentation design engineer at the company, said engineers in the U.S. would review drawings done overnight in India every morning at 7:30 a.m. “We did have our challenges with the India team,” he said. “They met the requirements, per se, but you could do it better.”

Multiple investigations – including a Justice Department criminal probe – are trying to unravel how and when critical decisions were made about the Max’s software. During the crashes of Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines planes that killed 346 people, investigators suspect, the MCAS system pushed the planes into uncontrollable dives because of bad data from a single sensor.

That design violated basic principles of redundancy for generations of Boeing engineers, and the company apparently never tested to see how the software would respond, Lemme said. “It was a stunning fail,” he said. “A lot of people should have thought of this problem – not one person – and asked about it.”

Boeing also has disclosed that it learned soon after Max deliveries began in 2017 that a warning light that might have alerted crews to the issue with the sensor wasn’t installed correctly in the flight-display software. A Boeing statement in May, explaining why the company didn’t inform regulators at the time, said engineers had determined it wasn’t a safety issue.

“Senior company leadership,” the statement added, “was not involved in the review.”

To contact the reporter on this story: Peter Robison in Seattle at robison@bloomberg.net

To contact the editors responsible for this story: Flynn McRoberts at fmcroberts1@bloomberg.net, Susan Warren

For more articles like this, please visit us at bloomberg.com

©2019 Bloomberg L.P.

Renaissance Robot
Oct 10, 2010

Bite my furry metal ass

starkebn posted:

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/boeings-737-max-software-outsourced-204657048.html

Rabin, the former software engineer, recalled one manager saying at an all-hands meeting that Boeing didn’t need senior engineers because its products were mature. “I was shocked that in a room full of a couple hundred mostly senior engineers we were being told that we weren’t needed,” said Rabin, who was laid off in 2015.

:hmbol: never thought I'd see an engineering version of

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaGdwfykYGY&t=68s

steinrokkan
Apr 2, 2011



Soiled Meat

Fried Watermelon posted:

Research MKUltra

I mean Taylor Swift music is bad, but not "it must be a cia mind control scheme" bad

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Zeppelin Insanity
Oct 28, 2009

Wahnsinn
Einfach
Wahnsinn
I never tire of brilliant business executives deciding that making sure people are paid less and treated worse is totally worth the increased cost to the company.

It's either ideological or still regurgitating 50s textbooks or whatever when there are mountains of empirical evidence that poo poo doesn't work. But outsourcing is cheap! Everyone says so so it must be true!

I mean, can you imagine how much profit those corporations would be bringing in if they were run by competent people? They could pay all their taxes, stick clearly within legal boundaries and still be way better off financially. Hell, they could even increase CEO pay because they would be making more money!

Yes, I am aware that corporations being run for profit is a myth - and some of the most successful corporations in the world literally have profit in their business model - and it's all about appealing to some 70 year olds and computer algorithms to increase a magic number largely related to fads and fashions. But it's so loving dumb to not want to make more money it boggles my mind.

Zeppelin Insanity has issued a correction as of 12:16 on Jul 2, 2019

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