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Raenir Salazar posted:The English sent a mission delegation (twice) to try to negotiate a trade deal but they made a very large number of mistakes both times; some they corrected the second time; but the second time they tried to offer the Chinese various widgets that China already knew how to make and was of no value to them. It is a great read, and in retrospect the Chinese bureaucracy can hardly be blamed for not realising that within a couple of decades from that point, any post-napoleonic western exploratory force would be able to annihilate a full Qing army, and it would only get worse from there on. They probably can be blamed for not realising that rocking up in an advanced warship indicated that maybe this particular group of barbarians was a bit better placed to exert influence at a distance than what they were used to. They can definitely be blamed for not accepting a permanent embassy or sending anyone to go find out a bit more about these weird strangers and then report back. They also really misread how their response would be received, probably because they had never really dealt with a nation totally outside the Chinese sphere of influence but capable of exerting force at a distance. Like, how would anyone in this thread feel in general about “we don’t want you people here unless you are down to 100% assimilate to our superior culture and never leave and also not get uppity (PS we will refer to you as <racist slur> in official communications, you cool with that right)”? Because that is exactly how the British at the time read it, and they responded exactly the way a group of proud, touchy, rapacious military/commercial aristocrats who had grown up thinking honour gained through war was the best.thing.ever could be expected to: they waited for an excuse to go to town on China and as soon as Lin Zexu gave it to them, they pushed their poo poo in. It’s also kind of dumb that the first time the Chinese bothered to send an ambassador to Britain to find out “who are these weird foreigners and why do they keep winning wars against us?” was as a result of an official apology for murdering a British diplomat (the Chinese official in charge stayed, forcing the first official mission), like a decade+ after losing the second war. And honestly it’s pretty inexcusable to have missed the British conquering large chunks of India to the extent that they aren’t regarded as a serious threat. It’s notable that among the conditions of the unequal treaties were stipulations that: * The Chinese language terms to be used to refer to communications between the governments were specific, respectful ones(Treaty of Nánjīng, 1842) * The character 夷 was prohibited from being used in official communications to refer to citizens of the four countries involved in Opium War 2 (Treaty of Tianjin, 1848) * “Disrespect” towards the ambassador was prohibited (Treaty of Tianjin, 1848) This was something that the Europeans of the time clearly took seriously enough to write into the treaties. I think it’s highly relevant to actually understanding what went down that even though Europe had formed early racist theories based on the colonial experience in the Americas and Africa in the 17th and 18th centuries, these were not initially applied to the Chinese, who were regarded as hyper-civilised as late as the trade delegations mentioned above. I’m not sure when China finally got lumped into the category of “racially inferior”, but my guess is that it was after the opium wars, and it’s just possible that it was avoidable if the Qing government had been different. Tl;dr: the Qing reacted to the Europeans as if the power dynamic was the opposite of what it actually was, and the century of humiliation was possibly avoidable. Like, Thailand avoided it, and Korea did until the Japanese got involved (which they did partly because China was too weak to stop them due to getting its poo poo kicked in by Europeans). (Disclaimer, in case anyone thinks this is excusing European rapacity in China: it’s not. But it’s worth understanding the circumstances properly imo).
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Jul 2, 2019 13:30
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is this honestly the best way to spend your time? didn’t read it but like, this can’t be the best way to spend your valuable free minutes on earth, right (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 2, 2019 13:52
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The Qing were a stagnating great power that didn’t know how to deal with foreign threats that were more technologically advanced than themselves. It isn’t a mystery. Also Siam was too useful as a buffer state and Korea was geographically in a relatively isolated position compared to British trade routes of the period.
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Jul 2, 2019 15:37
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https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D-cBMoMW4AErUuH.jpg:large There sure are a lot of Union Jacks flying at these protests.
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Jul 2, 2019 15:53
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Oh, all these websites are down 【網軍攻擊目標】 連登 https://lihkg.com/ 高登 http://forum8.hkgolden.com/topics.aspx?type=BW 立場新聞 https://thestandnews.com/ 眾新聞 https://www.hkcnews.com/ 香討 https://www.discuss.com.hk/ 親子 https://www.baby-kingdom.com/forum.php PTT https://www.ptt.cc/bbs/index.html Dcard https://www.dcard.tw/ THISAV https://www.thisav.com/videos 巴哈 https://www.gamer.com.tw/ Baby Kingdom -where parents argue about afterschool tutoring centers  Even porn sites are down !! Great loving job
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Jul 2, 2019 16:00
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HK Golden at least seems to be up now. There was a cloudflare outage earlier this evening, might it have been that?
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Jul 2, 2019 16:58
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caberham posted:Oh, all these websites are down All of them are fine now. Beefeater1980 posted:Tl;dr: the Qing reacted to the Europeans as if the power dynamic was the opposite of what it actually was, and the century of humiliation was possibly avoidable. Like, Thailand avoided it, and Korea did until the Japanese got involved (which they did partly because China was too weak to stop them due to getting its poo poo kicked in by Europeans). That's some cool stuff I didn't know the respect things were explicitly laid out in the treaties like that. You can also emphasize how not only did Japan avoid a century of humiliation, but they got to do their own humiliations to other countries. It's probably because America got to them first and we're not as touchy as the easily offended limey aristocrats 
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Jul 2, 2019 19:18
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Bloodnose posted:All of them are fine now. I think it had a lot more to do with Japan living for centuries in the shadow of a gigantic, immensely powerful empire. They knew what big countries could do to small countries if so inclined, and the Perry expedition was enough to utterly terrify them.
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Jul 2, 2019 19:32
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Kassad posted:It's almost like they internalized a racist hierarchy invented by Europeans and Americans The idea that Asians aren't capable of autonomous thought and just have a mental pathology inflicted on them as passive objects by white people seems extraordinarily racist to me, but that's just me. It is unfortunately an extremely common theme throughout mainstream white western liberal discourse on Asia though
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Jul 3, 2019 04:26
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Darth Walrus posted:I think it had a lot more to do with Japan living for centuries in the shadow of a gigantic, immensely powerful empire. They knew what big countries could do to small countries if so inclined, and the Perry expedition was enough to utterly terrify them. Also, the Japanese economy under the Tokugawa shogunate had advanced a lot in the previous two centuries, so much so that the transition to industrialization was not that difficult.
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Jul 3, 2019 05:20
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icantfindaname posted:The idea that Asians aren't capable of autonomous thought and just have a mental pathology inflicted on them as passive objects by white people seems extraordinarily racist to me, but that's just me. It is unfortunately an extremely common theme throughout mainstream white western liberal discourse on Asia though Seriously. There has been plenty of colorism and nation-state-ethnicity animosity in Asia for centuries before they even knew white people existed. quote:The cultural desire for pale skin has been prevalent throughout Chinese history, though its significance was contested in varying time periods. In ancient China, pale skin was indicative of one’s elite status. Because farmers and laborers devoted long hours to outdoor labor, they experienced long exposure to the sun, resulting in darker skin tones. The elite, on the other hand, did not face such necessity for manual labor and remained indoors. As a result, individuals in the upper social classes had faircolored skin (Mak, 2007; Zhang, 2012). Skin tone thus became a signifier of class, with pale skin dominating the top of the hierarchy. Just as clothing and jewelry could differentiate individuals’ economic standing, the shade of one’s skin also became an essential aspect of one’s identity.
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Jul 3, 2019 05:20
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Beefeater1980 posted:China stuff. I enjoyed this. Thank you. Are you the cosplayer with the glorious mustache, or am I mixing you up with someone else? It’s been a while since I’ve been in this thread, and I’ve forgotten some of the players.
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Jul 3, 2019 06:28
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Peven stan is gonna be so mad when hong kong elites probate him from something awful dot come
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Jul 3, 2019 06:43
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Veni Vidi Ameche! posted:I enjoyed this. Thank you. Are you the cosplayer with the glorious mustache, or am I mixing you up with someone else? It’s been a while since I’ve been in this thread, and I’ve forgotten some of the players. Not me, I’m the one that’s not around much.
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Jul 3, 2019 09:08
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He actually works in China and deals with different industries and speaks decent mandarin. He’s still goony but you can’t tell from the outside. Whereas other china goons, myself included look typically goony
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Jul 3, 2019 10:02
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caberham posted:He actually works in China and deals with different industries and speaks decent mandarin. I will push back on this. the beertopia goon picture that Texas Andy took of like...I don't know, 7 or 8 of us? it doesn't look remotely goony. I don't think there is a single person in that photo that looks "goony". I've met a fair amount of china goons, tbh I can only think of one or two China goons that I've met that I would describe as looking "goony".
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Jul 3, 2019 10:47
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icantfindaname posted:The idea that Asians aren't capable of autonomous thought and just have a mental pathology inflicted on them as passive objects by white people seems extraordinarily racist to me, but that's just me. It is unfortunately an extremely common theme throughout mainstream white western liberal discourse on Asia though I think an aspect of this is language - very few non-chinese speak the language and many Chinese in the West don't speak much English (etc), so you have very insular but visible diaspora communities + students. It makes sense that given the inability to communicate both sides probably see the other as a homogeneous group rather than a bunch of individuals. So in the context of China the country, this is just expanded to 'everyone is cool with the authoritarian government or at least unwilling to challenge it'. Yeah, old racist stereotypes about Asian passivity and 'submissiveness' (particular towards women) obviously play into it too. It's obviously bullshit either way. A Chinese friend of mine did nothing but poo poo talk the government, loudly, as we went about Shanghai. I thought that was kind of bold, but she didn't seem concerned so maybe that's just my own dumb preconceptions about the country showing.
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Jul 3, 2019 12:29
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The Great Autismo! posted:I've met a fair amount of china goons, tbh I can only think of one or two China goons that I've met that I would describe as looking "goony". Obligatory "turn on your monitor" ThomasPaine posted:It's obviously bullshit either way. A Chinese friend of mine did nothing but poo poo talk the government, loudly, as we went about Shanghai. I thought that was kind of bold, but she didn't seem concerned so maybe that's just my own dumb preconceptions about the country showing. In English or Chinese? That's probably an important distinction.
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Jul 3, 2019 12:41
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Known Lecher posted:In English or Chinese? That's probably an important distinction. English. I don't speak Chinese. Yeah, she did say that generally you can get away with a heap more speaking in (and even writing online) in English because no one cba with the effort of policing it. Mind, she also mentioned that even in Chinese no one really cares what people say in private conversations and you only put yourself at risk if you're openly advocating anti-government stuff to an audience. I have no idea how accurate that is ofc.
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Jul 3, 2019 12:47
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ThomasPaine posted:English. I don't speak Chinese. Nobody gives a gently caress what you say as long as you don't post it online or write an article. Have you never sat in a Beijing taxi?
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Jul 3, 2019 12:53
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icantfindaname posted:The idea that Asians aren't capable of autonomous thought and just have a mental pathology inflicted on them as passive objects by white people seems extraordinarily racist to me, but that's just me. It is unfortunately an extremely common theme throughout mainstream white western liberal discourse on Asia though I'm not saying people in China are parroting racism unthinkingly, just that it sure as hell wasn't invented by anyone but Europeans initially. It's not the Ming or the Qing who took over the Americans and started shipping slaves to plantations there. On a more anecdotal note, I do know Chinese people living in France who say racist poo poo. It's literally the same "acceptable" bullshit you constantly hear here, there's no way it's not something they absorbed after moving here. It's depressing to hear immigrants repeat it but not particularly surprising. It sure as hell doesn't tell me anything about the views of people in China. tino posted:Nobody gives a gently caress what you say as long as you don't post it online or write an article. Have you never sat in a Beijing taxi? Once I was hanging out with some friends of a friend in Chongqing and this guy's talking a bunch about how he likes Bo Xilai and his dissatisfaction with the government. In a restaurant, in Chinese (I don't speak it but someone was translating). He didn't seem concerned.
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Jul 3, 2019 13:33
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Kassad posted:I'm not saying people in China are parroting racism unthinkingly, just that it sure as hell wasn't invented by anyone but Europeans initially. It's not the Ming or the Qing who took over the Americans and started shipping slaves to plantations there. Nah, it's connected to imperialism obviously so Europe was by far the worst for it (and the states have kind of inherited that tradition), but you have examples whenever you get a power disparity between ethnic or cultural groups. The Aztecs for example were super lovely to their less powerful neighbouring tribes and essentially vassalised them. ThomasPaine fucked around with this message at 13:41 on Jul 3, 2019 |
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Jul 3, 2019 13:38
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ThomasPaine posted:Nah, it's connected to imperialism obviously so Europe was by far the worst for it (and the states have kind of inherited that tradition), but you have examples whenever you get a power disparity between ethnic or cultural groups. The Aztecs for example were super lovely to their less powerful neighbouring tribes and essentially vassalised them. Yeah but the Aztecs didn't get to spread that political system outside present-day Mexico. European imperialism (and racism by extension) did get pretty much everywhere.
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Jul 3, 2019 13:48
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Kassad posted:I'm not saying people in China are parroting racism unthinkingly, just that it sure as hell wasn't invented by anyone but Europeans initially. It's not the Ming or the Qing who took over the Americans and started shipping slaves to plantations there. I think what’s happening here is the conflation of systemic racism with individual bigotry—though the two are of course connected. Yes, Europeans invented the system of racism that built what we understand as the modern world, created the idea of whiteness, and justified the violent exploitation of those who were outside of that ingroup, but that doesn’t mean that, had Columbus never crossed the Atlantic, Chinese people would be incapable of being prejudiced against those of other races.
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Jul 3, 2019 13:48
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Definitely not. They probably wouldn't be in the way they are now, though.
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Jul 3, 2019 13:50
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Kassad posted:Definitely not. They probably wouldn't be in the way they are now, though. So we’re not disagreeing, I think.
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Jul 3, 2019 13:51
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Pirate Radar posted:I think what’s happening here is the conflation of systemic racism with individual bigotry—though the two are of course connected. Yes, Europeans invented the system of racism that built what we understand as the modern world, created the idea of whiteness, and justified the violent exploitation of those who were outside of that ingroup, but that doesn’t mean that, had Columbus never crossed the Atlantic, Chinese people would be incapable of being prejudiced against those of other races. This is the correct take imo
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Jul 3, 2019 13:52
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I group caste system as a form of racism. Not saying antiquity China didn't have racism. But it was not well documented. Confucianism scholars tend to swept that under history revisions.
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Jul 3, 2019 14:08
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Jacques Gernet (1996). A history of Chinese civilization. Cambridge University Press. p. 294 posted:Intermarriage was initially discouraged by the Tang Dynasty. In 836 Lu Chun was appointed as governor of Canton, and was disgusted to find the Chinese living with foreigners and intermarrying. Lu enforced separation, banned interracial marriages, and made it illegal for foreigners to own property. Lu Chun believed his principles were just and upright. The 836 law specifically banned Chinese from forming relationships with "dark peoples" or "people of colour" China really did invent everything
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Jul 3, 2019 14:10
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Lu Chun sounds like a CIA operative
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Jul 3, 2019 14:53
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tino posted:I group caste system as a form of racism. Not saying antiquity China didn't have racism. But it was not well documented. Confucianism scholars tend to swept that under history revisions. Virtually every group has bigotry, European ideas of race and what the list of races are and their ranking is an invention people have to be told though
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Jul 3, 2019 15:21
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balls to the wall 19th century euro race science is so utterly insane it would be extremely funny if it hasn't literally caused the slave trade and holocaust lol
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Jul 3, 2019 15:45
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tino posted:Nobody gives a gently caress what you say as long as you don't post it online or write an article. Have you never sat in a Beijing taxi?
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Jul 3, 2019 17:17
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Do we have any indication that the politburo and Xi will accede to the demands of the Chinese coal companies, or if they'll stand resolute on their climate goals of replacing coal with renewables?
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Jul 3, 2019 23:35
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ThomasPaine posted:balls to the wall 19th century euro race science is so utterly insane it would be extremely funny if it hasn't literally caused the slave trade and holocaust lol Nineteenth-century scientific racism was more an effect of the slave trade than a cause of it. The broader point stands, though.
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Jul 4, 2019 02:34
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Silver2195 posted:Nineteenth-century scientific racism was more an effect of the slave trade than a cause of it. The broader point stands, though. Very fair point
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Jul 4, 2019 02:50
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Grouchio posted:Do we have any indication that the politburo and Xi will accede to the demands of the Chinese coal companies, or if they'll stand resolute on their climate goals of replacing coal with renewables? There is no chinese politburo
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Jul 4, 2019 07:11
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:There is no chinese politburo State atheism doesn’t mean actively believing that the state does not exist
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Jul 4, 2019 07:26
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:There is no chinese politburo yes there is
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Jul 4, 2019 07:31
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There are at least three politburos in China. One of them is Chinese. So weird and hosed up that Chinese people have internalized images of singing and dancing ethnic minorities so thoroughly that they are now forcing minorities to sing and dance through massive state coercion.
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Jul 4, 2019 08:20
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