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Arivia posted:It's not a lore bible. You're a fool to think that Ed Greenwood could ever collapse his notes down to a lore bible. His sample looks at the Realms he was sending to TSR in 1986 are like 206 pages, and that's just samples he was sending to them to sell them on the setting. No, there's boxes and boxes and boxes of documents on everything. Technically, everything Ed says is canon unless otherwise contradicted by a published source; think of it like how George Lucas used to be the primary decider of all canon in Star Wars until he sold the property to Disney. What happens is that Wizards, their employees and contractors, and their licensees ask for information about something from Ed and he sends them a box of stuff on Shadowdale or Elminster or whatever. Then they take that, see what they think is usable (often cutting a lot of the good stuff out) and put that into a final product. Don't get me wrong I completely believe that it's a full-time job to collect and rework another person's thoughts and intellectual properties into a form that's easily approachable for a franchise to exploit and work with. That job is not an excuse to ignore being willfully negligent and hurtful.
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Jul 4, 2019 19:05
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Isn't that thing he's saying about Orcus basically one of the things Darkseid's got going on, where it is in some way the same Darkseid in all the various universes? Does this mean Orcus gets annually owned by Santa?
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Jul 4, 2019 19:10
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Hostile V posted:I count boxes and boxes of papers as a lore bible. Cork board covered with bits of red string and thumbtacks pointing at a variety of pictures and articles? Lore bible. Shoebox full of scrawl-covered napkins? Lore bible. Binders that have titles made from cut-out magazine words that've been taped on? Lore bible. That time they managed to trap one of Ed's sleep paralysis demons in a bell jar and it just yells words constantly to trick people to let it out? Lore bible but very time consuming to transcribe and collate (until they got that one machine from Hasbro, you know the one). That makes sense, it's definitely not an excuse. It's just that a lore bible involves focus and some degree of editing, imo. Part of what's appealing about the Realms is that it's really just Ed's overgrown campaign notes from the early 1980s. They're sprawling, giant, absurd things.
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Jul 4, 2019 19:15
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Yeah, a "real" lore bible can be pretty hefty, but it's not going to be just thousands of pieces of random trivia. It's for getting collaborators all on the same page in a broad sense. If a freelancer needs to know all the details about some specific event written into a book 20 years ago, they get someone else to just tell them or (ideally) get a comp PDF of the relevant book(s).
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Jul 4, 2019 19:20
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90s Cringe Rock posted:Isn't that thing he's saying about Orcus basically one of the things Darkseid's got going on, where it is in some way the same Darkseid in all the various universes? Orcus Epistemology 101 sounds like exactly what I want in 5th edition D&D, I'm sure. More seriously, this comes off a lot like he's gotten into the MCU and wants to wax eloquent about the Thanos equivalent big crossover boss for something like the Realms. Which fits with what you describe because Thanos is already a knockoff Darkseid.
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Jul 4, 2019 19:21
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Fair corrections on my use of the phrase and you're all right. I'm still gonna posit a proper D&D lore bible is a big collection of trivia and thought-threads that people are constantly flipping through due to contradictions and maddeningly vague plain language because it's A: fitting and B: makes me laugh. (destroy lore IMO, canon is worthless and a prison of creativity, do what thou wilt)
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Jul 4, 2019 19:44
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Caring about "canonicity" is just a different way of having fun with a piece of fiction and it's fine to do that, despite assholes frequently using it as a bludgeon against other people's fun.
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Jul 4, 2019 19:51
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Don't forget people who use Canon as a gatekeeping bludgeon.
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Jul 4, 2019 20:06
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You should absolutely care about how your writers approach fiction, and not every approach is equally valid -- although which are more or less valid depend on what you're trying to achieve. On the other hand, thinking about "canon" makes way, way more sense in the context of a TRPG than it does in a work of narrative art, because the basic premise of a TRPG setting is that you're creating a toolbox for someone else to use. (Setting aside universal systems for the moment, for hopefully obvious reasons.) If that toolbox has nothing but vague suggestions it's useless, if it details absolutely everything with no sense of priority or importance it's almost useless, and the decision about what you choose to specifically define vs. what you don't is very important because that's what defines your setting/toolbox as a creative work. Like, canon is stupid in the context of literature or film because it confuses an aesthetic experience with a simulation, and fails to appreciate that there's not actually anything "behind the screen," so to speak; there's just the work itself. This doesn't apply as strongly to tabletop RPGs because they literally are simulations, and not only that, they actively rely on all the players and the GM having a shared set of assumptions about the imaginary scenario they're simulating. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Jul 4, 2019 |
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Jul 4, 2019 20:13
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I would contend that 'is Orcus aware that he's not aware of settings that don't contain Orcus' is just the kind of minutiae that even I, who enjoys Mage: The Awakening metaphysics, think is entirely disconnected from the actual toolbox elements of canon. Like, it's the kind of thing you say to make the setting sound deep or secret, rather than actually building a useable setting. Plus it's just, on a fiction level, bizarrely drawing attention to the fact that D&D doesn't actually hold together as a single oversetting- which is fine! But why act like it does then zoom in on how it doesn't?-
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Jul 4, 2019 20:33
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Hostile V posted:Fair corrections on my use of the phrase and you're all right. I'm still gonna posit a proper D&D lore bible is a big collection of trivia and thought-threads that people are constantly flipping through due to contradictions and maddeningly vague plain language because it's A: fitting and B: makes me laugh. A setting filled with completely authoritative statements that completely contradict each other is part of why I like the Chronicles of Darkness cosmology so much. Even the "base" setting (the God-Machine stuff) seems specifically designed to allow inserting spooky bullshit into the worldviews of each supernatural type that doesn't match how they think the world works.
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Jul 4, 2019 20:53
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ChroD doesn't actually authoritatively contradict itself, though. There are some unreliable narrators, and the setting is very explicitly designed to always have room for new weird stuff that doesn't fit into existing paradigms, but there's a pretty distinct and settled set of shared assumptions at the bottom of it.
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Jul 4, 2019 20:56
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Christ, Forgotten Realms loving sucks. Just make a Dark Sun game like everyone actually wants.
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Jul 4, 2019 22:00
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:ChroD doesn't actually authoritatively contradict itself, though. There are some unreliable narrators, and the setting is very explicitly designed to always have room for new weird stuff that doesn't fit into existing paradigms, but there's a pretty distinct and settled set of shared assumptions at the bottom of it. I think they're talking about poo poo like the "this story is true" blurbs in Wtf2
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Jul 4, 2019 22:16
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Fuego Fish posted:Christ, Forgotten Realms loving sucks. Just make a Dark Sun game like everyone actually wants. An Eberron game that isn't a lovely MMO
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Jul 4, 2019 22:20
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The Orcus thing sounds like he's trying to imitate Monte Cook. That is totally something Cook would throw into Invisible Sun, and the mechanical representation of Orcus's omniawareness of realities is +2 to all actions.
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Jul 4, 2019 22:23
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Kurieg posted:I think they're talking about poo poo like the "this story is true" blurbs in Wtf2 ... the stuff that's explicitly presented as hotly contested oral history that's blended into myth for thousands of years? 
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Jul 4, 2019 22:28
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Okay here's my hypothesis: WOTC HR: Mike! Mike! It's really important! We need someone to look after the mythic integrity of the forgotten realms and make sure the timeline's consistent! Only you have the master game designer chops to sit in the DEEPVAULT and ensure that ONE adventure happens BEFORE ANOTHER. Mearls: Oh okay this seems very important. WOTC HR: Okay here's the DEEPVAULT it may look like the basement supply closet but that's just a level 3 phantasmal force, can you see the mythic truth underneath? Mearls: Yes! I can see it! WOTC HR: Also you can't tweet any more. That would leak information to Orcus. Mearls: I always knew I was the CHOSEN ONE. WOTC HR: [closes door]
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Jul 4, 2019 22:30
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Fuego Fish posted:Christ, Forgotten Realms loving sucks. Just make a
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Jul 4, 2019 22:30
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drat, yeah. Gotta concede that point.
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Jul 4, 2019 22:35
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Spelljammer vs Dark Sun, it's a cover based shooter.
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Jul 4, 2019 22:39
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give the rights to Birthright to Greg Stolze so I can run it in REIGN without having to homebrew everything
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Jul 4, 2019 22:39
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A spelljammer fleeing Neogi attack ships is forced to crash land on Athas. They must join with the local tohr-kreen to fight off the Neogi invaders as they come in search of prey and slaves.
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Jul 4, 2019 22:45
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My favorite setting is Eberron, which is specifically because of a long-running PBP game set at Morgrave Academy. Maybe more D&D settings need to be able to replicate school drama, IDK.
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Jul 4, 2019 23:15
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Guys they did the good settings in the good D&D. This is the bad D&D so they are sticking to the bad settings and it's fine. Do you actually want Mearls to be in charge of Ebberon? Dark Sun? I don't.
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Jul 4, 2019 23:40
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The fact that Mearls doesn't like Eberron meaning 5e will never get a physical Eberron book is just lol
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Jul 4, 2019 23:40
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:give the rights to Birthright to Greg Stolze so I can run it in REIGN without having to homebrew everything Good God I didn't realize how badly I wanted this before you mentioned it but now I want nothing else more in this world.
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Jul 4, 2019 23:44
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S.J. posted:The fact that Mearls doesn't like Eberron meaning 5e will never get a physical Eberron book is just lol The first qualifying question for being put in charge of D&D should be "Eberron: doed it own?" and if you answer "no" you're immediately Jazzy Jeffed out the door.
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Jul 4, 2019 23:48
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If that picture of a warforged hanging of the side of an airship about to rob a lightning train doesn't get you stoked to play then you're dead inside.
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Jul 5, 2019 03:38
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Congratulations to Jef and Jon of System Mastery on the announcement of their book!
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Jul 5, 2019 04:04
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Pope Guilty posted:Congratulations to Jef and Jon of System Mastery on the announcement of their book! Huh. I have mixed feelings. I like them a lot, but I don't actually want a giant book of puns. 8one6 posted:If that picture of a warforged hanging of the side of an airship about to rob a lightning train doesn't get you stoked to play then you're dead inside. You should just use this as a test of whether or not to play games with people. Or at least anything that you'd run with D&D or whatever.
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Jul 5, 2019 04:15
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Eberron is great in part because it has actual defined themes the author wanted to happen in play and then worked backwards from there to get a setting for, instead of duplicating off-brand Tolkien-plus-Vancian mishmash for the nth time.
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Jul 5, 2019 04:18
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Xiahou Dun posted:Huh. Heh, we were contacted by the publisher to write it, it was sort of surreal when we figured out what they actually wanted.
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Jul 5, 2019 04:32
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theironjef posted:Heh, we were contacted by the publisher to write it, it was sort of surreal when we figured out what they actually wanted. O yeah, not judging you guys. And I'm sure they're great puns. But it's really hard to imagine sitting down and reading a whole book of puns. So on the one hand I want to support you, but on the other hand I don't know what I'd do with it. It's like if you made nipple clamps ; I'm sure they'd be excellent ones but that's not something I'm actually in the market for.
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Jul 5, 2019 04:35
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A book that's just a collection of puns sounds punishing to read.
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Jul 5, 2019 04:49
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Roadie posted:A book that's just a collection of puns sounds punishing to read. It's really one of those joke books like you'd get as a kid, all 101 Vampire jokes or whatever, just about D&D stuff in general. Not that many of the jokes are puns, it's mostly extremely basic one liners. Which again is what the publishers wanted. So weird.
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Jul 5, 2019 05:01
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Plutonis posted:An Eberron game that isn't a lovely MMO
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Jul 5, 2019 05:12
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theironjef posted:It's really one of those joke books like you'd get as a kid, all 101 Vampire jokes or whatever, just about D&D stuff in general. Not that many of the jokes are puns, it's mostly extremely basic one liners. Which again is what the publishers wanted. So weird. TBH this implies that somebody at S&S listens to you and went "we gotta get some of what they're doing here", which is neat.
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Jul 5, 2019 05:13
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theironjef posted:Heh, we were contacted by the publisher to write it, it was sort of surreal when we figured out what they actually wanted. 
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Jul 5, 2019 05:19
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Pope Guilty posted:TBH this implies that somebody at S&S listens to you and went "we gotta get some of what they're doing here", which is neat. Heh, not a chance. The editing shows that no one there has ever heard of RPG terminology. What actually happened is that D'Amato's book was successful so they shopped around his network for the next biggest showrunner.
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Jul 5, 2019 05:44
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