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We know that Farouk was influencing people most of season two, up untill he and David fought. And it is likely that he is responsible for Syd trying to murder David.
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Jul 3, 2019 19:24
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DaveKap posted:Hilarious and annoying because I find myself rooting for David (he is ultimately the biggest victim, all things considered) while the show is trying to do everything in its power to make him the bad guy. They're probably never going to reconcile exactly how much brainwashing he ever actually did vs how much he was just reversing Farouk's fuckery. I currently have no idea how much of Syd's character (or any character in Division 3 for that matter) is actually Syd vs how much of it is Farouk's brainwashing, so none of the drama she has with David seems justified. David, without permission, went into Syd's head and forcibly changed her memory and perception of reality. He did this because Syd would not longer be with him based on things she had learned. In order to make her stay with him, he literally abused his powers. And then had sex with her. Yeah. Syd has some pretty justifiable reasons to be mad at David. How many times do you have to hear "You drugged me. Then had sex with me."?
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Jul 3, 2019 23:05
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The only thing that I really dont like is that the show doesnt really have the guts to use the word 'rape', and seems to be intentionally softening the language around what David did to Syd.
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Jul 3, 2019 23:21
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I shudder to think about how much shittier the internet conversation around this show would be if it were spelled out explicitly.
fancy stats fucked around with this message at 02:49 on Jul 4, 2019 |
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Jul 4, 2019 02:32
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Nephthys posted:God, same. The drug use is getting almost fetishisistic now and is makes me super uncomfortable. JossiRossi posted:David, without permission, went into Syd's head and forcibly changed her memory and perception of reality. He did this because Syd would not longer be with him based on things she had learned. Ersatz posted:Didn't season 2's finale explicitly show Farouk's rats scurrying around division 3 planting suggestions? It's not a stretch to see the entire organization as hopelessly compromised, with Farouk continuing to pull strings. DaveKap fucked around with this message at 04:08 on Jul 4, 2019 |
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Jul 4, 2019 03:59
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Oasx posted:We know that Farouk was influencing people most of season two, up untill he and David fought. And it is likely that he is responsible for Syd trying to murder David. Yeah, the writers pretty blatantly tipped their hand when they had Farouk tell Syd that he was going to turn her into "such a perfect liar," or whatever the line was. Kind of suggests that future-Syd from last season wasn't terribly trustworthy, don't it?
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Jul 4, 2019 04:08
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DaveKap posted:The issue I had was primarily with how this, exactly, was presented. While I understand what your argument is, I was under the impression he was just reversing the lies given to her via Farouk's meddling ala the Melanie cave scene. Melanie presented false information, David was removing the false information, defaulting Syd back to a pre-manipulated state. If that's not what happened, I was "a bad TV watcher" and have been under the wrong impression this entire time.
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Jul 4, 2019 04:13
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glitchwraith posted:We literally saw David using his powers to manipulate Lenny when he forced her to feel happy and go eat so he could talk to Switch alone. Now, obviously he hasn't brainwashed her enough to prevent her from feeling jealous over Switch and question his motives, but she is far from free of being supernaturally influenced. All in all, I'm not opposed to the extreme grey-ness of the series and the characters, I just don't feel ... satisfied by how it all fell into place. It's like someone gave me a jigsaw puzzle but the cardboard pieces are soggy. Sure I can put them together, but they don't really fit right. Hey, I'll admit I have a poo poo memory, too. The machine that stole David away at the end of Season 1... did we get any explanation behind that? Wasn't it from the future? What did it do with David, exactly? I forgot the entirety of what that was all about... DaveKap fucked around with this message at 04:23 on Jul 4, 2019 |
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Jul 4, 2019 04:16
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DaveKap posted:The issue I had was primarily with how this, exactly, was presented. While I understand what your argument is, I was under the impression he was just reversing the lies given to her via Farouk's meddling ala the Melanie cave scene. Melanie presented false information, David was removing the false information, defaulting Syd back to a pre-manipulated state. If that's not what happened, I was "a bad TV watcher" and have been under the wrong impression this entire time. Did Melanie lie to Syd though? She showed her David torturing Oliver which did happen.
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Jul 4, 2019 04:45
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howe_sam posted:Did Melanie lie to Syd though? She showed her David torturing Oliver which did happen. It wasn't a lie, but it was something that needed context, which wasn't given, because Farouk is puppetmaster supreme.
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Jul 4, 2019 04:51
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howe_sam posted:Did Melanie lie to Syd though? She showed her David torturing Oliver which did happen. I wasn't gonna rant about it but now that we're on the topic, gently caress it, I'll rant about it. Melanie took Syd to "the Minotaur's Labyrinth." The same Minotaur that was influencing Melanie similarly to how Farouk influenced David. She showed Syd information through pools of water while waving her hand. Melanie doesn't have any powers, she is a non-mutant. The fact Syd doesn't question any of this is 100% annoying to me and further proof that Syd was not acting of her own volition. Okay, that wasn't much of a rant, but out of all the scenes in this show, I hated that loving cave the most. Actually, considering how entertaining this show is, it might be the only scene that I just hate.
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Jul 4, 2019 05:51
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I was thinking about the little sphere thing. Didn'y Cary say "wait I built this"; which makes me think it was built by the Cary that's at David's cult, sent back in time by switch to, change David somehow? Or maybe bring past David to meet with current David. I really hate they threw in that "its not Shi'iar" still, because I know it was an easter egg for X-men fans, but it suggests a massive, huge thing that will never be followed up on.
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Jul 4, 2019 07:49
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The one thing that bothers me about this storyline is the fact that sdy has a very similar incident in her past that had far worse consequences for her victim. If it wasn't for that, saying that his action makes him irredeemable in all timelines would be a lot more understandable. Are they trying to make a point about David's apparent lack of remorse about it? Or are they just glossing over it? It's hard to tell without anyone ever mentioning it
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Jul 4, 2019 08:05
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I think it's pretty clear that David has been manipulating and controlling Syd since the very first episode. She goes from being a woman who doesn't like being touched to his perfect girlfriend in a single music number (i.e. psychic phenomenon). Whatever else is going on with Farouk, and it's possible that a lot else is going on, David has absolutely being playing with her mind. Beyond anything else, he's clearly drugging his cultists this season too, and was strongly tempted to drug Switch. He's not into consent.
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Jul 4, 2019 10:22
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Open Source Idiom posted:I think it's pretty clear that David has been manipulating and controlling Syd since the very first episode. DaveKap fucked around with this message at 11:07 on Jul 4, 2019 |
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Jul 4, 2019 11:04
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Chalks posted:The one thing that bothers me about this storyline is the fact that sdy has a very similar incident in her past that had far worse consequences for her victim. If it wasn't for that, saying that his action makes him irredeemable in all timelines would be a lot more understandable. Except what she did is never presented as being defensible, only that it was something she did as a child that was a major source of trauma for her. David doing this as a 30-something year old man and trying to claim it was justified is a very different thing.
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Jul 4, 2019 12:22
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fancy stats posted:Except what she did is never presented as being defensible, only that it was something she did as a child that was a major source of trauma for her. Yeah, that's what I mean when I ask if it's his apparent lack of remorse that's the point here. She says that what he did was so bad that there's no coming back from it, no matter how sorry he is, even if the timeline is altered such that he didn't do it because he's shown himself to be someone who is capable of it. That doesn't imply to me that it's because of his attitude about it but without anyone ever addressing it it's difficult to tell. Even if this is a situation where the writers didn't know where they were going to take this story line when they wrote Syd's backstory, they should at least address it in a way that makes it clear that the problem is that David genuinely doesn't understand why the thing he did was wrong and is perhaps incapable of understanding.
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Jul 4, 2019 13:02
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Chalks posted:Even if this is a situation where the writers didn't know where they were going to take this story line when they wrote Syd's backstory, they should at least address it in a way that makes it clear that the problem is that David genuinely doesn't understand why the thing he did was wrong and is perhaps incapable of understanding. Why? The point isn't to make his actions defensible. He's a lovely self-centered person who did a lovely self-centered thing.
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Jul 4, 2019 13:16
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fancy stats posted:Why? The point isn't to make his actions defensible. He's a lovely self-centered person who did a lovely self-centered thing. I'm not saying they should make his actions defensible, but I feel like they should point out why his situation is so much worse than hers - for me it's because of his attitude and the fact that he can probably never understand why it was so bad - but the show's dialogue is just "you did this therefore you are irredeemable, also pay no attention to the fact that I also did the same thing".
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Jul 4, 2019 13:59
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How many times did he say "we love each other" to Syd in this show previously? I thought that was an interesting moment. I might have to rewatch S1.
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Jul 4, 2019 15:55
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David is not just a broken person, he's a bad person. "I deserve to be loved" This is all that is driving David at the moment. The mind controlled hippy cult and his efforts to time travel - all about people loving him. He wants Sid to love him despite him raping her, but doesn't want to change himself or suffer for his crimes in any way. As Sid pointed out to him, even if he goes back and undoes his crimes, he'll still be the same person who committed those crimes in the first place. He wants it all, but doesn't want to earn anything and refuses to accept consequences. David is broken and bad. Farouk is literally a monster. Division 3 are chess pieces.
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Jul 4, 2019 16:57
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Megillah Gorilla posted:David is not just a broken person, he's a bad person. If he hadn't thrown that stupid left-turn rape plot into this show it would have been so much more enjoyable.
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Jul 4, 2019 18:19
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"This will make you vomit" - LEGION.
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Jul 4, 2019 18:55
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everyone believes they "deserve to be loved." it's a psychological truism. but if you're a powerful/diseased psychic like david then there's a much weaker basic developmental imperative to balance the internal needs of the self against the external constraints of the world. the self can just change the external world to suit its own internal desires.
Zane fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Jul 4, 2019 |
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Jul 4, 2019 19:53
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Megillah Gorilla posted:David is not just a broken person, he's a bad person. Problem is, the writers made the turn from David being fundamentally good but damaged, to being an outright bad person, too quickly, in a totally unearned manner. Saying "Oh well he's always been a bad guy in the comics" isn't much of an excuse. The season 2 finale was just bad writing. I'm enjoying this season so far, though. e: Gizmodo put it better than I could: quote:Sexual assault should never be used as a plot device unless you know what you’re doing. Legion doesn’t. This rape scene didn’t tell us anything we didn’t already know about David and Syd, or their relationship. Syd had already come to the realization that he was abusing her, and David had faced his internal demons showing how the belief he deserved her was unearned. So, what is this for? If it’s to toughen up Syd, it’s a damaging trope male writers turn to when they don’t know how to portray women, their pain, or their emotional journeys. If it’s to bring David to his lowest point, then Syd is little more than an object, a tool being used by the writer for a man’s storyline. Majorian fucked around with this message at 21:25 on Jul 4, 2019 |
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Jul 4, 2019 21:14
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twistedmentat posted:I was thinking about the little sphere thing. Didn'y Cary say "wait I built this"; which makes me think it was built by the Cary that's at David's cult, sent back in time by switch to, change David somehow? Or maybe bring past David to meet with current David. Isn't Professor X involved with the Shi'iar or something? They could still bring it up.
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Jul 4, 2019 21:17
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Majorian posted:Problem is, the writers made the turn from David being fundamentally good but damaged, to being an outright bad person, too quickly, in a totally unearned manner. Saying "Oh well he's always been a bad guy in the comics" isn't much of an excuse. The season 2 finale was just bad writing. I don't much like that they went with the sexual assault route either, but I don't think that article is following your view that David is 'fundamentally good', especially when one of the lines in your very quote is "Syd had already come to the realization that he was abusing her."
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Jul 4, 2019 21:53
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JazzFlight posted:Great show, it's a bunch of garbage people I don't like. Way to go Noah Hawley. Majorian posted:Problem is, the writers made the turn from David being fundamentally good but damaged, to being an outright bad person, too quickly, in a totally unearned manner. Saying "Oh well he's always been a bad guy in the comics" isn't much of an excuse. Chalks posted:they should at least address it in a way that makes it clear that the problem is that David genuinely doesn't understand why the thing he did was wrong and is perhaps incapable of understanding. I do at least have to give the show some credit. It's making me think way more about the responsibilities of mutants with psychic powers who have brainwashed friends. Comic book theorizing ahoy. DaveKap fucked around with this message at 22:24 on Jul 4, 2019 |
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Jul 4, 2019 22:18
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fancy stats posted:I don't much like that they went with the sexual assault route either, but I don't think that article is following your view that David is 'fundamentally good', To be clear, I don't mean to argue that he was actually "fundamentally good," just that the writers largely portrayed him as such in season 1 and through most of season 2, and didn't make the "he was actually evil all along!" turn as expertly as the story required. It reminds me a little bit of Daenerys' turn on GoT - it's not like those of us who were paying attention didn't see it coming, but the writers there didn't do a very good job in "earning" that development, either.
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Jul 5, 2019 00:18
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David spent a lot of season 2 learning to do empathy well. Him pulling people out of the monk's delusions is all about understanding their motivations. David going rapey after that is kind of oddball because he would have to fundamentally not give a poo poo about where people are coming from. That he used his powers to convince himself he's good is a cool idea if he had been monstrous but technically good for some time but it isn't how it went. I think in season 3 at this point you just have to accept he's a bad guy and probably that the ending will be he will die loathing himself. It is very odd that he's outright mind controlling people when he knows that's the thing he did wrong. Should have had a smoother transition.
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Jul 5, 2019 00:41
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Goofballs posted:David spent a lot of season 2 learning to do empathy well. Him pulling people out of the monk's delusions is all about understanding their motivations. David going rapey after that is kind of oddball because he would have to fundamentally not give a poo poo about where people are coming from. That he used his powers to convince himself he's good is a cool idea if he had been monstrous but technically good for some time but it isn't how it went. Yeah, it's especially clunky given that there was an episode in which we saw David in several different alternate realities. While he didn't seem to be a particularly happy or good person in all of them, he also wasn't fundamentally bad in any of them either. The worst version of him I think we saw, at least on a moral level, was him using his powers to become a billionaire, and even then I'm not sure he's fundamentally "bad," much less capable of raping Syd.
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Jul 5, 2019 00:52
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Majorian posted:Yeah, it's especially clunky given that there was an episode in which we saw David in several different alternate realities. While he didn't seem to be a particularly happy or good person in all of them, he also wasn't fundamentally bad in any of them either. The worst version of him I think we saw, at least on a moral level, was him using his powers to become a billionaire, and even then I'm not sure he's fundamentally "bad," much less capable of raping Syd. I think that's the farouk has total control version. Just because he's pointlessly cruel. I still love seeing the guy who plays farouk on screen. He's magnetic. Can't believe I haven't seen him in more things. Think of the amount of action films he could have been the villain in just doing what he does in Legion. Switch is cool but Farouk guy is magnificent.
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Jul 5, 2019 01:31
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Goofballs posted:I still love seeing the guy who plays farouk on screen. He's magnetic. Can't believe I haven't seen him in more things. Think of the amount of action films he could have been the villain in just doing what he does in Legion. Switch is cool but Farouk guy is magnificent. It massively hosed with my head when I realized he was the Sultan in the new Aladdin.
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Jul 5, 2019 01:38
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Navid Negahban (Farouk) was in Aladdin so maybe he'll be getting bigger roles soon. He also seems like a down to earth guy on Instagram. I kinda wish the DVDs has Hawley commentary cause there seems to be a lot of stuff he could explain away about the series.
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Jul 5, 2019 01:38
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Goofballs posted:I think that's the farouk has total control version. Just because he's pointlessly cruel. I still love seeing the guy who plays farouk on screen. He's magnetic. Can't believe I haven't seen him in more things. Think of the amount of action films he could have been the villain in just doing what he does in Legion. Switch is cool but Farouk guy is magnificent. Yeah, I'm pretty spellbound by him myself. I'm not thrilled with the whole "He's in charge of Section 3" plotline, but I assume they'll directly tackle the fact that, hey, guess what, he's controlling you, you idiots who literally spent two seasons trying to kill him. But that's not his fault; he's doing amazing things with what the writers give him.
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Jul 5, 2019 01:45
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Goofballs posted:I think that's the farouk has total control version. Just because he's pointlessly cruel. I still love seeing the guy who plays farouk on screen. He's magnetic. Can't believe I haven't seen him in more things. Think of the amount of action films he could have been the villain in just doing what he does in Legion. Switch is cool but Farouk guy is magnificent. Does he look like a peasant to you?  I want to jump back on this show but the end of last season left me in the same place as JJ2: I don't care about literally anyone involved in this train wreck because they're all horrible people and I doubt we're going to get the Cary and Kerri Show. 
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Jul 5, 2019 02:10
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Majorian posted:It reminds me a little bit of Daenerys' turn on GoT
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Jul 5, 2019 02:50
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night slime posted:Isn't Professor X involved with the Shi'iar or something? They could still bring it up. Yea that's one of the things that it implies. David's biological dad is banging a space bird jerk empress.
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Jul 5, 2019 05:21
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So I went back and watched a few parts of season 2 to get a better handle on the discussion. Something I think that isn't being discussed or noted is that David did not think he was raping Syd. I'm not saying this justifies or excuses his actions. Reviewing the scene where he uses his powers on Syd my interpretation is that he removed her memories of her interactions with Melanie that he believed was manipulation from Farouk causing her to turn on him. It's possible I'm mistaken and David's psychic manipulation went further. Assuming this he believed he was just reverting her back to the "real Syd" before she was twisted by the Shadow King. I guess I'm just trying to point out that perhaps intention should matter when considering the subject. Again I am not condoning or suggesting his actions were in any way acceptable. It doesn't make what he did any less heinous but if the intention wasn't to cause harm or commit wrong is he inherently evil and irredeemable? I think this is important because as many have pointed out if that is the case he becomes a less interesting and more limited character. I also think it doesn't make sense from a development perspective as some have pointed out as it's quite jarring if that scene or event was the no turning back point. I think the intention was for that to be one of the first steps down a dark path, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions", which lead to him ending the world. I'm with most of you in that I would have preferred they'd done something different or handled the subject better as it's clearly divisive and tainted the show for some which is a shame. Some random thoughts having gone back a bit: - Episode 6 of season 2 still rules and the ending sequence with the Superman cover is amazing - Wasn't there a bit where Amy Haller appeared as a ghost to Lenny to make her be good or help David? Was that resolved? If not it could be interesting if she made an appearance this season. - Was there any ever discussion of Oliver's riddle about Farouk's weakness: "what does one plus one equal?" - my guess is that it refers to the power of connection between people, specifically Syd and David, which Farouk isn't capable of given his belief that he is above everyone else - I love the scene between Lenny and Kerry in episode 10: "Nah I'm supposed to wait here" "For what?" "The big payback" *poo poo eating grin* - Has "the choke" come up since season 2? I think it's an interesting plot device that they could probably get another good scene out of. - Any theories on the timeline shenanigans? As I understand it Older Syd originally comes from a future where Farouk is killed and David eventually ends the world. Are we still in the same timeline? I suppose David could still kill Farouk. Something disappointing about this plot line is that it assumes David will inevitably end the world which is limiting. - When did David's other personalities first appear? If I recall it was some time in season 2 when you hear them talking in his head. I'm curious what the catalyst was to bring them into existence or if they always existed why they were dormant until then. I guess Farouk could have suppressed or created them?
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Jul 5, 2019 05:22
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David talked to his "rational mind" towards the end of season one so its been an element for a while.
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Jul 5, 2019 05:38
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