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https://www.npr.org/2019/07/01/737798440/oregon-legislature-votes-to-essentially-ban-single-family-zoning?t=1562058313937quote:Oregon is on its way to making a significant change in what housing is allowed to be built in the state. Sounds good, and it doesn't seem to carve out exceptions for high income neighbourhoods, like they tried doing in california.
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Jul 2, 2019 10:08
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pointsofdata posted:https://www.npr.org/2019/07/01/737798440/oregon-legislature-votes-to-essentially-ban-single-family-zoning?t=1562058313937 High income neighborhoods are using historic designations (Portland’s Laurelhurst and Eastmoreland specificially - but obviously that has limitations that a lot of rich neighborhoods don’t necessarily have) to sidestep it. I’ve also heard that it doesn’t prevent CCRs and the like. But I do think it’s a good move.
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Jul 3, 2019 03:16
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Tax Increment Financing sucks lemons!!!! Why does the Midwest have such a hard on for it!?
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Jul 3, 2019 06:04
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It can be useful in situations but lovely governments like it because it's free money.
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Jul 3, 2019 06:06
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JIZZ DENOUEMENT posted:Tax Increment Financing sucks lemons!!!! gotta make do when raising the millage rate would immediately kill whatever it is you're trying to accomplish old people are sensitive to property tax increases like some kind of desert-lurking spider and good loving god do they turn out to vote in local elections
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Jul 3, 2019 13:43
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xrunner posted:High income neighborhoods are using historic designations (Portland’s Laurelhurst and Eastmoreland specificially - but obviously that has limitations that a lot of rich neighborhoods don’t necessarily have) to sidestep it. I’ve also heard that it doesn’t prevent CCRs and the like. But I do think it’s a good move. California also has a uniquely lovely law that encourages never selling your house ever for any reason. Even in places where you could in theory build duplexes or even apartment buildings you have people paying the taxes of a $40,000 house on a house that's now going for $2,000,000. Even then duplex and triplexes are more of a bandaid solution. Probably the biggest thing is we need to get rid of this idea that everybody has to have their own yard or that living in apartment building is somehow wrong. Having the big house, the big yard, and the no roommates as the thing to aspire to is insane. I spam Kate Wagner sometimes but, well, she knows her poo poo and knows all the reasons why American house attitudes are awful at the moment. https://www.curbed.com/2018/7/11/17536876/great-room-house-size-design-square-footage It turns out that people who "need" formal entertaining space tend to just kind of never use it, ever. That big, fancy sitting room with all the furniture nobody is allowed to actually sit on exists solely to make anybody who visits feel inferior if they don't also have such things. I already posted her article about lawns but really, this is a person who Gets It and I read every single loving word she writes.
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Jul 3, 2019 18:55
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My relatives think raising kids in an apartment is child abuse because the kids can’t go outside unattended (assuming this is one of those gated condo communities in the suburbs or a building in an urban core) and all the neighbors will hear them screaming and carrying on all the time and will hate us. I think it was this thread that pointed out that newer buildings tend to not have paper thin walls and this isn’t nearly as much of a problem. Not having a backyard or a space outside to do whatever the hell I want in private is a big downside though, honestly.
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Jul 3, 2019 19:41
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ProperGanderPusher posted:My relatives think raising kids in an apartment is child abuse because the kids can’t go outside unattended (assuming this is one of those gated condo communities in the suburbs or a building in an urban core) and all the neighbors will hear them screaming and carrying on all the time and will hate us. What the gently caress are people doing in their backyards that they don't do in parks? Is there some, like, backyard orgy trend running throughout suburbia that just nobody talks about?
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Jul 3, 2019 20:36
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Thanatosian posted:What the gently caress are people doing in their backyards that they don't do in parks? Yeah, sorry, I guess your invitation got stuck I'm the mail.
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Jul 3, 2019 20:49
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Thanatosian posted:What the gently caress are people doing in their backyards that they don't do in parks? you generally need a permit or something to throw a party in a park. if you do a lot of outdoor entertaining, lawns make sense. or you can also just sit outside in your underwear getting drunk
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Jul 3, 2019 20:58
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ProperGanderPusher posted:Not having a backyard or a space outside to do whatever the hell I want in private is a big downside though, honestly.
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Jul 3, 2019 21:02
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luxury handset posted:you generally need a permit or something to throw a party in a park. if you do a lot of outdoor entertaining, lawns make sense. or you can also just sit outside in your underwear getting drunk That depends on the park. There are a lot of parks where if you want to just fire up a grill with five of your best buds and grill some burgers you don't need anything extra special. Big parties you might need to pay a few dollars to get a pavilion but small groups you can just have. In the case of apartment buildings there's usually some kind of communal green space for the building or nearby ones. Rooftop gardens are also becoming increasingly a thing. It varies by location obviously but there are places that even moderately sized groups can just kind of show up at. And really if you want to be drunk and mostly naked that's what bathing suits and places like beaches or river banks or whatever are for. There are places to do that that aren't your yard. Basically anything you can do with a yard you can do with some kind of shared green space.
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Jul 3, 2019 21:12
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yeah i dont see the merit in trying to explain apartments to people like you're trying to get the concept of electricity across to hunter gatherers but you do you man
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Jul 3, 2019 21:22
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ToxicSlurpee posted:That depends on the park. There are a lot of parks where if you want to just fire up a grill with five of your best buds and grill some burgers you don't need anything extra special. Big parties you might need to pay a few dollars to get a pavilion but small groups you can just have. In the case of apartment buildings there's usually some kind of communal green space for the building or nearby ones. Rooftop gardens are also becoming increasingly a thing. It varies by location obviously but there are places that even moderately sized groups can just kind of show up at. What if I want to dig a pit to bbq a pig in? Or grow a garden that won’t be picked clean by inconsiderate passerbys? Or I just want to hang out in the sun without being bothered?
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Jul 3, 2019 21:29
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before this turns into another slugging match between suburbs vs. urbs i think it's important to point out there are many upsides to owning private property but also it an increasingly expensive luxury and one which requires an unsustainable commitment to personal vehicle modes of transportation in order to make affordable now that we are passing out of the historic era in which cheap suburbs were a staple of middle class wealth generation
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Jul 3, 2019 21:34
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I grew up in the exurbs with something like a 1 acre lawn that we were forced to mow. It was hell, and I hate lawns now. All the time and energy spent on that useless space.
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Jul 3, 2019 21:37
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Zapf Dingbat posted:I grew up in the exurbs with something like a 1 acre lawn that we were forced to mow. It was hell, and I hate lawns now. All the time and energy spent on that useless space. Hours I'll never loving get back. Yards are the loving worst.
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Jul 3, 2019 21:38
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Thanatosian posted:What the gently caress are people doing in their backyards that they don't do in parks? You can be arrested for letting your kids play in the park unsupervised. Not so in your backyard.
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Jul 3, 2019 21:55
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Trabisnikof posted:You can be arrested for letting your kids play in the park unsupervised. Not so in your backyard. This sounds like a Stranger Danger situation, where something that has happened, like, once or twice is blown up into a national epidemic.
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Jul 3, 2019 22:02
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Thanatosian posted:This sounds like a Stranger Danger situation, where something that has happened, like, once or twice is blown up into a national epidemic. True, they apparently passed a 2016 law to try to legalize letting your kids walk to the park. But there have been quite a number of times parents have either been arrested or had CPS force them to never ever let their kid go to the park alone again: quote:SILVER SPRING, Md. — Maryland parents accused of child neglect for letting their kids roam around their neighborhood had to retrieve them from the county's Children's Protective Services after police removed the youngsters from a park. quote:For most of the summer, her daughter had stayed there with her, playing on a laptop that Harrell had scrounged up the money to purchase. (McDonald's has free WiFi.) Sadly, the Harrell home was robbed and the laptop stolen, so the girl asked her mother if she could be dropped off at the park to play instead. quote:Just after returning home from a walk around the block with her dog, Marshmallow, an 8-year-old Wilmette girl expected a visit from a playmate. Instead, police officers arrived at the family’s door. Since the laws are pretty vague on this its pretty much if someone calls CPS or if the cops want to hassle you.
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Jul 3, 2019 22:11
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Trabisnikof posted:True, they apparently passed a 2016 law to try to legalize letting your kids walk to the park.
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Jul 3, 2019 22:17
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Thanatosian posted:So far, that "quite a number" seems to be "three." presumably any number of articles I post will be met with a similar response. and since we can barely keep track of how many people the cops kill we have dont have exactly have good statistics to work with. but yes, parents get harassed for letting their kids play in the park. its america of course the cops and busybodies harass people.
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Jul 3, 2019 22:38
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Thanatosian posted:This sounds like a Stranger Danger situation, where something that has happened, like, once or twice is blown up into a national epidemic. the police definitely harass children for being outside https://twitter.com/alamanecer/status/1140120776911347712
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Jul 3, 2019 23:14
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This is America, arguing "I need a yard so the cops don't harass me or my children" just leads to people arguing that they need stores, sports arenas, and any other conceivable destination in their homes. The sun is going to rise, the wind is going to blow, and cops are going to harass people.
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Jul 4, 2019 00:42
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Growing up in Ukraine, we would generally have a big courtyard inside each building number (or sometimes block) and all the kids for all the apartments around it would play there, usually with each other. The buildings fit more people than what I generally see here in Boston area (apartments vs. multifamily homes), but they weren't packed anywhere near that tight.
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Jul 4, 2019 00:43
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Some parts of London have a similar system (although very different building styles), where the ground floor apartment might have their own (small) garden, but the rest of them use a shared square, sometimes a private one like here: https://goo.gl/maps/62eneewGQNjNNr5s7 There's a weird thing where people will object to building affordable housing in the same modality as some of the most expensive real estate in the world, as it doesn't meet their expectations of what a home should look like.
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Jul 4, 2019 08:59
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Yeah in Sweden you have big four or so storey apartment buildings arranged around a shared central courtyard, or a subdivided courtyard where 5-10 apartments will share a section. And most of the apartments have a balcony if you want to have a more private area to sit in the sun or grow some potted plants. It works pretty well.
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Jul 5, 2019 12:55
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I mean in the US it really just comes down to the idea of rented property being a shameful thing and that you won't be fully whole until you buy a detached home with a yard. Kind of like how it's okay that fast food workers pay so shittily and not expected to be jobs that support a person or family: you're a piece of poo poo if you don't move out of that, so you deserve less than what's even necessary.
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Jul 5, 2019 14:49
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the culture of ownership is powerful in america, in essence "you can't tell ME what to do with MY LAND" i think it's very strong here because land, at least a meaningful enough amount of it to where you could be a small farmer, was easily acquired to the point that millions of european immigrants came to america for the specific purpose of getting a farm, which entrenched the mindset that if you don't own land you're not a real grown up adult human being
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Jul 5, 2019 15:16
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Zapf Dingbat posted:I mean in the US it really just comes down to the idea of rented property being a shameful thing and that you won't be fully whole until you buy a detached home with a yard. Kind of like how it's okay that fast food workers pay so shittily and not expected to be jobs that support a person or family: you're a piece of poo poo if you don't move out of that, so you deserve less than what's even necessary. Well and it is enforced by weak renters’ rights. Landlords can charge extra if you hang a photo on the wall and leave a mark, charge extra for pets, and demand insane quiet hours to make it harder to raise kids. People feel renters are second class citizens because they are legally treated like th.
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Jul 5, 2019 15:24
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The other nice thing about owning a yard is being able to dig that loving lawn up and replace it with something useful, beautiful or both. But in all seriousness, I’m not seeing much in the way of condos being developed so it’s either a house or an apartment with no limits to the amount your rent can be raised. I had to eat a 12% increase one year and I know I wasn’t hit the worst.
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Jul 5, 2019 15:36
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all the condo development is in luxury homes, not middle class homes. the free market system for providing housing absolutely sucks for injecting housing into the lower two thirds of the market. this is why poor people are being concentrated in midcentury suburbs these days, because the houses are old enough to be ragged and typically unworthy of renovation but also juuust valuable enough to serve as a bargain rental instead of a teardown
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Jul 5, 2019 16:23
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luxury handset posted:all the condo development is in luxury homes, not middle class homes. the free market system for providing housing absolutely sucks for injecting housing into the lower two thirds of the market. this is why poor people are being concentrated in midcentury suburbs these days, because the houses are old enough to be ragged and typically unworthy of renovation but also juuust valuable enough to serve as a bargain rental instead of a teardown While supply is so low in high demand areas any housing is a "luxury". You'll often see apartments built to legal minimum size and maximum building height which are not affordable to most people. I can't see many western cities lowering minimum sizes to Japanese/HK levels so they really need to start building more housing. The one advantage is that prices being so much higher than construction costs (except when certain city governments do it) means that a competent local authority can finance public housing through market rate sales if they are able to force through planning rule changes or exceptions. Mixed tenure developments are fairly common now in London due to restrictions on local councils ability to take on debt.
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Jul 6, 2019 09:39
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An ex council apartment went for over £1,000,000 in London a few years ago, I'm sure there have been more since then, so it's hard to say that the issue is new flats being to luxurious rather than it just being a case of too high costs per bedroom.
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Jul 6, 2019 09:44
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In the US developers demand a 15%+ profit margin on new housing developments, so even in places like the SF Bay Area you have fully permitted housing ready to build that developers refuse to build until construction wages decline.
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Jul 6, 2019 14:51
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Trabisnikof posted:In the US developers demand a 15%+ profit margin on new housing developments, so even in places like the SF Bay Area you have fully permitted housing ready to build that developers refuse to build until construction wages decline. Do you have a link for that? I'm skeptical that there are permissioned developments in SF which add a significant number of units and aren't profitable. Markets like SF and NYC can support building very expensive skyscrapers so it seems weird that an ordinary development wouldn't make money.
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Jul 6, 2019 15:08
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Trabisnikof posted:In the US developers demand a 15%+ profit margin on new housing developments, so even in places like the SF Bay Area you have fully permitted housing ready to build that developers refuse to build until construction wages decline. These are higher margins than Boeing and other aerospace/defense companies, what the gently caress.
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Jul 6, 2019 15:11
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Eh, for the bay area you have to figure in long planning times, and the uncertainty because of unwritten rules and neighbors throwing a fit ("when we zoned this area for tall buildings, we didn't realize they might cast a shadow!!!"). If you increase the risk duh of course businesses need higher margins to justify the cost. Which is why we need both streamlined permitting and lots of public housing. edit: oh wait thought you were asserting that for just the bay Cicero fucked around with this message at 15:18 on Jul 6, 2019 |
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Jul 6, 2019 15:15
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"Luxury" is a marketing term in housing development. It's about as meaningful as "artisanal" in food. The development of new "luxury" housing pushes prices down in other housing sectors, as the yuppies go for the new stuff and those who aren't well-off can afford to rent or buy the older housing stock. If not enough new housing is being built for requirements, yuppie types renovate older housing stock, pushing out the local residents (gentrification.)
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Jul 6, 2019 15:16
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pointsofdata posted:Do you have a link for that? I'm skeptical that there are permissioned developments in SF which add a significant number of units and aren't profitable. Markets like SF and NYC can support building very expensive skyscrapers so it seems weird that an ordinary development wouldn't make money. Construction costs are insanely high because construction labor is high cost because you have to live 3+ hours away if you do construction. For context SJ is actually the bigger SF bay city than SF: quote:Construction expenses have pressured developers severely enough that new market-rate apartments are profitable in no more than two districts in San Jose, according to a new report presented to city officials Tuesday. Even habitat for humanity is having trouble with the costs: quote:The group, Habitat for Humanity, says it can’t raise money fast enough to cover the gap between what very low-income residents can pay and the actual costs of providing homes, even with the help of legions of volunteers.
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Jul 6, 2019 15:17
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