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Does the actual crimes that Maduro’s security forces are committing not shock you? Do you really think it’s ok for them to employ death squads to terrify the populace? We’re talking about thousands being murdered, thousands being tortured in detention centers, women being abused, refugees being abused. What about that poo poo, are you gonna touch on that?
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Jul 7, 2019 22:04
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uninterrupted posted:The US overthrowing governments in South America always end badly full goddamn stop. Obviously there are issues with the Venezuelan educational system if you don’t understand that. This time it'll be different. Lucy is gonna hold that football firmly in place and I'm gonna kick it right through that goal.
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Jul 7, 2019 22:20
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M. Discordia posted:But have you considered the possibility that Michelle Bachelet, the leader of the Chilean Socialist Party who was literally imprisoned and tortured by the actual Pinochet government, is in reality a fascist Pinochet disciple? Because if you haven't considered it I assure you that the Maduro defenders have and will be alleging as much. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 7, 2019 22:29
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uninterrupted posted:It’s the exact same arguments that came up with Iran/Libya/Syria/etc. I don’t have to Bellingcat my way through a document refuting every claim when the recommendations include “make vaccines more accessible“ and not “end the sanctions literally preventing vaccines from being sent to Venezuela”, or even “don’t put Venezuelan refugees in concentration camps when they apply for asylum in the US”t. No evidence is good evidence if it contradicts how I feel about socialism and also the USA. I don't care if the UN says people are being killed and starved en masse. This is about principles goddamit. I shouldn't have to sell my che Guevara shirts and quit my college socialist club just because one lovely leader is killing thousands when it's not even here in North America and Europe.
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Jul 8, 2019 00:01
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536 posted:No evidence is good evidence if it contradicts how I feel about socialism and also the USA. “gently caress what millions of Venezuelans defending Miraflores from a US coup said, I’m a prototypical US right wing reactionary willing to blindly accept what the U.N. says as long as I can see some grainy green footage of Venezuelan
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Jul 8, 2019 00:56
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uninterrupted posted:“gently caress what millions of Venezuelans defending Miraflores from a US coup said, I’m a prototypical US right wing reactionary willing to blindly accept what the U.N. says as long as I can see some grainy green footage of Venezuelan What is the evidence that what is in the report is fake? Why should anybody believe you? You’re not putting any arguments, you’re saying that the West lies, but this woman went to Venezuela, spoke to the government, spoke to the people you claim to know so well and got that info. You’ve never even been there, how do you know Maduro isn’t lying to you? You can’t claim that the info is false and then just leave it at that. This isn’t a right wing outlet saying this, it’s the UN.
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Jul 8, 2019 06:25
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fnox posted:You can’t claim that the info is false and then just leave it at that. Oh yes they can.
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Jul 8, 2019 06:48
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If the UN has found that Maduro is murdering thousands, maybe the UN should do something about it.
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Jul 8, 2019 08:57
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Michelle Bachelet posted:The authorities classify the killings resulting from security operations as “resistance to authority”. The number of these deaths is unusually high. In 2018, the Government registered 5,287 such killings,39 while the NGO “Observatorio Venezolano de la Violencia” (OVV) reported at least 7,523 killings under this category.40 Between 1 January and 19 May 2019, the Government reported 1,569 killings for “resistance to authority”.41 The OVV reported at least 2,124 of such killings between January and May 2019.42 Information analysed by OHCHR suggests many of these killings may constitute extrajudicial executions. What's fun(and by fun I mean completely horrifying) is that the 5,287 figure appears to be from the governments own reports. So what uninterrupted is saying is that Maduro and PSUV is lying, which I would agree with, the true number of dead is probably much higher. Noshtane fucked around with this message at 10:50 on Jul 8, 2019 |
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Jul 8, 2019 10:27
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Oh it absolutely is higher. When the government was forced to admit the true inflation rate as part of their dealings with China, the real value exceeded IMF expectations. I’m sure if we start digging into the amount of disappearances and murders registered in the country you’ll find many more that can be attributed to armed forces.Unoriginal Name posted:If the UN has found that Maduro is murdering thousands, maybe the UN should do something about it. The UN by itself doesn’t have any real power to do much, it’s not a world government. In any case, what do you think they can do to stop Maduro? This isn’t factional conflict like in other regions they’ve been involved, there’s one side doing all the killing. Do they declare Maduro a criminal? What happens then?
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Jul 8, 2019 11:11
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uninterrupted posted:“gently caress what millions of Venezuelans defending Miraflores from a US coup said, I’m a prototypical US right wing reactionary willing to blindly accept what the U.N. says as long as I can see some grainy green footage of Venezuelan The 5287 killings is literally quoted and admitted from the government. Is that a lie? Who made that one up then? That number is not from Bachelet. joesci fucked around with this message at 11:39 on Jul 8, 2019 |
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Jul 8, 2019 11:35
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joesci posted:The 5287 killings is literally quoted and admitted from the government. Is that a lie? Who made that one up then? That number is not from Bachelet. Go ahead and quote a government source on that. Also I assume you’ll be even more outraged when you find out the US killed 40,000 Venezuelans through sanctions from 2017 to 2018 according to the DC based Center for Economic and Policy Research
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Jul 8, 2019 12:45
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uninterrupted posted:Go ahead and quote a government source on that. Isn't that just classic whataboutism to say "it doesnt matter if this corrupt leader has slaughtered 5000 of his own citizens because X country is also bad"
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Jul 8, 2019 12:49
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zapplez posted:Isn't that just classic whataboutism to say "it doesnt matter if this corrupt leader has slaughtered 5000 of his own citizens because X country is also bad" Claims of whataboutism are, themselves, whataboutism. Also none of that looks like a government source. Also unsurprising that the pro-US-armed invasion side is using the same defense of segregation used by the US for decades. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 8, 2019 12:51
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uninterrupted posted:
We've been over that report multiple times by now. If you actually bothered to read it, they state that they don't know how many Venezuelans where killed by sanctions and that what they did is pure guesswork. CEPR report posted:According to the National Survey on Living Conditions (ENCOVI by its acronym in Spanish), an annual survey of living conditions administered by three Venezuelan universities, there was a 31 percent increase in general mortality from 2017 to 2018. This would imply an increase of more than 40,000 deaths. Of course they go in the report to ignore this an assume that 100% of the increase in mortality was from US sanctions. I could say that the sanctions lead to total of 15 deaths during 2017 and it would probably have the same chance of being correct since both numbers are arbitrary guesswork and a product of pulling figures from our own asses.
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Jul 8, 2019 13:30
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There’s no way to link the government sources because they’re not listed publicly, much like how the government doesn’t publish economic or societal data and we thus far have had to rely on ENCOVI data or other sources. The very article you linked about the 40000 deaths? Those numbers are not from government sources, those all come from third party surveys done by universities. So you’re being pretty hypocritical just so you can avoid damning evidence of Maduro committing massive human rights violations.
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Jul 8, 2019 13:37
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Noshtane posted:We've been over that report multiple times by now. If you actually bothered to read it, they state that they don't know how many Venezuelans where killed by sanctions and that what they did is pure guesswork. It’s a fairly logical assumption, what else would have caused the increase in mortality in 2018 that didn’t already exist in 2017? Also lol that only the numbers implying a US led orgy of death wouldn’t be a good idea get critical analysis.
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Jul 8, 2019 13:45
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fnox posted:There’s no way to link the government sources because they’re not listed publicly, much like how the government doesn’t publish economic or societal data and we thus far have had to rely on ENCOVI data or other sources. So both sources can’t be trusted, and the furor in this thread is cynically motivated to cheerlead US regime change, or both are valid, and even the worst of Maduros crimes pale in comparison to the atrocities committed by the US. That’s my point.
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Jul 8, 2019 13:51
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uninterrupted posted:So both sources can’t be trusted, and the furor in this thread is cynically motivated to cheerlead US regime change, or both are valid, and even the worst of Maduros crimes pale in comparison to the atrocities committed by the US. That’s my point. You’re saying that the source can’t be trusted but you’re not giving any reasons for us to believe so. You can’t tell us which parts are lies. I can do that with the CEPR report, I don’t understand why you can’t point concrete flaws with the UN report. To note, I believe the data used in the CEPR report is legitimate, I disagree with their conclusions but the methodology behind the ENCOVI survey is well documented. Also Jesus Christ if you don’t think Maduro deserves prosecution after these crimes he’s being accused of I don’t know what’s wrong with you. The US being bad doesn’t excuse this guy being just about as close as you can get to the worst dictators in Latin American history. uninterrupted posted:It’s a fairly logical assumption, what else would have caused the increase in mortality in 2018 that didn’t already exist in 2017? fnox fucked around with this message at 14:12 on Jul 8, 2019 |
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Jul 8, 2019 14:10
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"What do you support, right now, to reduce the suffering and death in Venezuela?" "How about ending the US sanctions, which have demonstrably killed huge numbers of people, and unlike a coup could be done today with the stroke of a pen." "No not that, those deaths are good I mean what will you do to accomplish my regime change objective"
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Jul 8, 2019 15:08
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Schrödinger's sanctions: simultaneously a critically important political weapon to destabilize the government by further strangling the economy and fomenting unrest by depriving the Venezuelan people of necessities, and also totally ineffective and doing nothing at all don't worry about it.
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Jul 8, 2019 15:12
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uninterrupted posted:It’s a fairly logical assumption, what else would have caused the increase in mortality in 2018 that didn’t already exist in 2017? Gee I dunno, maybe a continuation of the trend seen during for the previous 6 years, accelerating mortality due to a breakdown in every facet of social structure?  The report makes little to no mention of the overall trend seen previously in Venezuela, it focuses solely on trying to pin the blame on US sanction, working with ifs like "...it is worth noting that the counterfactual in the absence of sanctions could even bethat mortality would have been reduced (see below), in the event that an economic recovery would have taken place" which is a drat big if, seeing how bone headed Maduro has acted, refusing to even acknowledge that there was a food shortage during this period. The report goes on to make assumptions like "According to the Venezuelan Medical Federation, some 22,000 doctors — about one third of the total — have left the country.39 As migration accelerates in 2019 due to the tightening sanctions, more of these health professionals, as well as others with necessary technical skills, will leave Venezuela." like people are leaving Venezuela purely because the 2017 sanctions and not because Maduro essentially ruined the country well before they came into effect. The report is bad and you should feel bad for posting it.
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Jul 8, 2019 15:15
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VitalSigns posted:Schrödinger's sanctions: simultaneously a critically important political weapon to destabilize the government by further strangling the economy and fomenting unrest by depriving the Venezuelan people of necessities, and also totally ineffective and doing nothing at all don't worry about it. So are the death squads something the sanctions are to be blamed for or what?
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Jul 8, 2019 15:26
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Noshtane posted:Gee I dunno, maybe a continuation of the trend seen during for the previous 6 years, accelerating mortality due to a breakdown in every facet of social structure? Hmm, yes, one of the few pieces of well-researched unbiased analyses of the effects of US sanctions is bad, while the report based on inaccessible numbers and a bunch of interviews of people not in Venezuela needs to be taken at face value.
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Jul 8, 2019 15:39
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uninterrupted posted:the report based on inaccessible numbers and a bunch of interviews of people not in Venezuela needs to be taken at face value. Agreed, we should never have allowed Jimmy Carter's ludicrous defense of the rigged elections in Venezeula to pass by without condemnation.
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Jul 8, 2019 15:43
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fnox posted:The UN by itself doesn’t have any real power to do much, it’s not a world government. In any case, what do you think they can do to stop Maduro? This isn’t factional conflict like in other regions they’ve been involved, there’s one side doing all the killing. Do they declare Maduro a criminal? What happens then? The tone difference between your strident calls for the US to intervene and your indecisive waffling here is hysterical
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Jul 8, 2019 15:52
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uninterrupted posted:Hmm, yes, one of the few pieces of well-researched unbiased analyses of the effects of US sanctions is bad, while the report based on inaccessible numbers and a bunch of interviews of people not in Venezuela needs to be taken at face value. I'm assuming you have read that report in full, but are you honestly telling me the wordage used in that report makes you think its without a certain bias?
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Jul 8, 2019 15:55
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Unoriginal Name posted:The tone difference between your strident calls for the US to intervene and your indecisive waffling here is hysterical If you start considering what the options are you see that Venezuelans are hosed on all sides, in no small part due to champagne socialists getting in the way of a far milder transitional agreement a couple years back. zapplez posted:I'm assuming you have read that report in full, but are you honestly telling me the wordage used in that report makes you think its without a certain bias? Calling anything by Mark Weisbrot unbiased is such an offensively stupid joke I don’t think I should bother replying to that guy anymore, he doesn’t want to acknowledge the accusations at all.
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Jul 8, 2019 15:57
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zapplez posted:I'm assuming you have read that report in full, but are you honestly telling me the wordage used in that report makes you think its without a certain bias? What’s your problem with how the report is worded? I can’t read your mind, I’m not one of your alts you regularly argue with.
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Jul 8, 2019 15:59
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fnox posted:So are the death squads something the sanctions are to be blamed for or what? No?
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Jul 8, 2019 16:52
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uninterrupted posted:What’s your problem with how the report is worded? I can’t read your mind, I’m not one of your alts you regularly argue with. The report is as biased as a US courtroom in a trial on police violence. It is also disingenuous and purposely omits several important factors, all so it can say USA BAD as often as possible.
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Jul 8, 2019 16:53
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Noshtane posted:The report is as biased as a US courtroom in a trial on police violence. Purposely omits several important factors, like that UN report that mentions sanctions once when talking about food insecurity?
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Jul 8, 2019 17:20
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I got to throw things out there, as for the report, I don't know if the total death count in the conclusion is defensible or not without more data. That said, the data in the meat on the article hasn't been disproven by any posters here and that is the important part to consider, especially during the 2017-2019. Furthermore, I don't think it is importable the quality of life started to drop significantly around 2012-2013, this is exactly the period when Venezuelan currency reserves start to drop. 
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Jul 8, 2019 17:27
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Ardennes posted:I got to throw things out there, as for the report, I don't know if the total death count in the conclusion is defensible or not without more data. That said, the data in the meat on the article hasn't been disproven by any posters here and that is the important part to consider, especially during the 2017-2019. That’s when Maduro took power. I recall what that was like, and the change between years was immediately perceptible. Food shortages began almost exactly with the Ley de Precios Justos. The problem with acquiring this data is that of course third parties are not going to be able to acquire it independently. The Venezuelan government had a hard time hiding things from the Human Rights commisioner because of them being legally unable to suppress them, and because of the sheer volume of abuses. Venezuela is far and away one of the most dangerous countries to report on, abuses against media have been widespread, going from illegal seizure to arbitrary detention. I do not expect there to be any more opportunities to expose the Venezuelan government’s crimes until Maduro is out. The report is extensively documented, cites sources, some of which are leaked documents made available by the Attorney General who deserted not too long ago. There is no evidence of numbers being doctored, and even they don’t claim that all of the killings the government admits to are extrajudicial executions, it concludes that some are, and that the number is alarmingly high. It is, as I’ve mentioned, 6 times higher than the US total in the same period. Might I add however that the Observatorio Venezolano de Violencia reports a higher number for the same period. So it’s not that other sources won’t exist, they just won’t be using government data otherwise. fnox fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Jul 8, 2019 |
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Jul 8, 2019 18:18
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Ardennes posted:I got to throw things out there, as for the report, I don't know if the total death count in the conclusion is defensible or not without more data. That said, the data in the meat on the article hasn't been disproven by any posters here and that is the important part to consider, especially during the 2017-2019. The data is good, they got it from ENCOVI reports. The conclusions they make are not supported by this data.
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Jul 8, 2019 18:33
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fnox posted:That’s when Maduro took power. I recall what that was like, and the change between years was immediately perceptible. Food shortages began almost exactly with the Ley de Precios Justos. I was talking about the report on the sanctions not the extrajudicial report. That one is significantly more difficult to verify due to sources (I am not saying I am pro or con the findings. As for the sanctions it is very possible to say they had a devastating economic impact without saying they are responsible for everything that happened. Like I showed above, the severe decline in currency reserves happened significantly before 2017. I think Sachs and co, wrote a conclusion without the data to back it but the data they did show, supports some of their assertions. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Jul 8, 2019 |
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Jul 8, 2019 18:49
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There’s a secondary source for the Bachelet report which is the Observador Venezolano de Violencia, they actually report a higher number than the number cited as coming from the government. I believe their sources are from the morgues themselves. There’s shockingly not very many morgues for a place with such high mortality. The ENCOVI report is available online, you can read into their methodology. It’s a very well made survey and I have no major objections against it. Wait are you citing the individual sanctions as being responsible for the drop in foreign reserves and not the other thing that got started right around they same time? To note, we’re talking about very limited sanctions then that didn’t touch the Venezuelan economy at all. The heavy hitters came in on 2017.
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Jul 8, 2019 19:29
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uninterrupted posted:Claims of whataboutism are, themselves, whataboutism. I just need to save this for posterity.
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Jul 8, 2019 20:35
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Discendo Vox posted:I just need to save this for posterity. How can Whataboutism be real if our posts aren't real?
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Jul 8, 2019 20:44
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kidkissinger posted:How can Whataboutism be real if our posts aren't real? Whataboutism is a pseudofallacy created during the Cold War, and used near exclusively by the west, to shield the west from criticism.
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Jul 8, 2019 21:16
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