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It is a goddamn travesty how little information there is online about the Silhouette Machines online. I couldn't even find good art of them, just small screencaps 
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Jul 11, 2019 02:01
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Gripweed posted:various Dreadnoughts from Warhammer 40,000 Kanos posted:NG Knight Lamune & 40. HitTheTargets posted:Sakura Wars is pretty close too. Endorph posted:Dai-guard, kind of? Endorph posted:And some of the mechs in king gainer Lots of good notes from these. Thanks again!
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Jul 11, 2019 03:29
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Gripweed posted:various Dreadnoughts from Warhammer 40,000 Scopedogs through the ages at least that's my general term for the "coffin on legs" school of robot
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Jul 11, 2019 03:38
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I always liked the old-school Martian tripods, the original mechas. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YwFvmnbj3E ULLA!
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Jul 11, 2019 04:00
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I think what makes M7 work as a better sequel to the original than all the others is that the power of music is still in question. Sure, music worked in the original series but it was a mix of culture shock and other factors at play. Music wasn't literally magic and we saw how useless it was against people who had overcome their culture shock and didn't give a poo poo. Start of 7, people still understand that music is just music, not song magic. Basara's just working off his passion rather than some measurable phenomenon (that he knows of). He's singing because he's going to move a mountain with his song. Frontier comes closest to this, with singing just kind of being a coincidence until it kicks into gear with song magic. Delta is really terrible about this because it's a known phenomenon by then, gets used in almost every single battle as some kind of vague handwavy boost that sometimes helps and sometimes doesn't. Plus doesn't really use it except as a plot device and some characterization.
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Jul 11, 2019 08:21
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Argas posted:I think what makes M7 work as a better sequel to the original than all the others is that the power of music is still in question. Sure, music worked in the original series but it was a mix of culture shock and other factors at play. Music wasn't literally magic and we saw how useless it was against people who had overcome their culture shock and didn't give a poo poo. Start of 7, people still understand that music is just music, not song magic. Basara's just working off his passion rather than some measurable phenomenon (that he knows of). He's singing because he's going to move a mountain with his song. Macross 7 literally has Song Energy as a scientific phenomenon though?
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Jul 11, 2019 17:36
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Anima Spiritia eeeeeeeeeeee
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Jul 11, 2019 18:41
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Gripweed posted:It is a goddamn travesty how little information there is online about the Silhouette Machines online. I couldn't even find good art of them, just small screencaps and the only mech to get an actual figure was king gainer itself tho the dominator and a few of the grunt mechs got capsule toy figurines
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Jul 11, 2019 19:31
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Remember that one episode where the bad guys had an Overman that let everybody hear each other's thoughts, and Gainer defeated it by thinking so loudly about the girl he liked it drowned out everybody else? Overman King Gainer was such a good show
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Jul 11, 2019 22:16
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MonsieurChoc posted:I always liked the old-school Martian tripods, the original mechas. oh hell yeah, I love that album. The Steven Spielberg movie is pretty good too! Now that I think of it, War of the Worlds absolutely counts as giant mecha
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Jul 11, 2019 23:50
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Droyer posted:Macross 7 literally has Song Energy as a scientific phenomenon though? Yeah not really sure what that person is on about, M7 is when the music becomes magic. Ranzear posted:Thanks guys! https://twitter.com/240eukrante/status/1133942190109913089 This person and a bunch of other artists they retweeted around that date did a bunch of pictures of converting other robots into Wataru style things which might help serve some inspiration for you.
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Jul 12, 2019 00:33
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Argas posted:Frontier comes closest to this, with singing just kind of being a coincidence until it kicks into gear with song magic. Delta is really terrible about this because it's a known phenomenon by then, gets used in almost every single battle as some kind of vague handwavy boost that sometimes helps and sometimes doesn't. Plus doesn't really use it except as a plot device and some characterization. The really annoying thing is, I think Delta has the best first episode in the franchise and possibly one of the best in anime full stop. I say that loving the first episode of SDF Macross too (smug dick Hikaru showing up Roy during the aerobatics is great for instance). Walkure showing off by using song magic to sooth the raging beast of Var while performing a concert simultaneously to keep the populous calm as variable fighters dance in the background is a loving amazing concept though. Especially when Mikumo is riding one around and then using drones as parachutes. It's just a fun as gently caress way to integrate music and idols directly in to the battles, and make them all one synergistic whole. Then Delta throws everything fun about that episode in the bin, the drones are hijacked and forgotten about as unreliable, Windermere publicly declares war, Battroid mode is basically forgotten so no dancing variable fighters and almost every fight is in space or otherwise set up so the idols huddle in a protected bubble. Macross acknowledging that "yea, music is magic" and just running with it could be great, and I'd say Macross 7 is the proof since it has some fantastic episodes once it really establishes this but Delta is just a poo poo series and completely undercut itself at every opportunity. I wouldn't use Delta as proof that the concept is bad, because Delta itself is just bad. That said, Hayate being almost completely dependent on Freyja's musical buffs is one more stupid thing it did. It's fine that it's established early on that he's so bad he'd fall out of the sky without computer assistance if she's not buffing him with music, but when he's still dependant on it to be good a dozen episodes in it's more of a problem. Hayate defeating the guy that killed Messer an episode later, purely because Freyja's singing is making him better and then never facing off against Keith again is such a lovely conclusion to that whole plot thread. I know lots of people loved that episode in general, but that part of it just left me disappointed and is probably one of the major things that killed any remaining interest I had in the show. Droyer posted:Macross 7 literally has Song Energy as a scientific phenomenon though? Yea, Macross 7 has song beams that can damage beings who withstand hits from battleships and Basara reversing entropy by singing hard enough. Gripweed posted:Remember that one episode where the bad guys had an Overman that let everybody hear each other's thoughts, and Gainer defeated it by thinking so loudly about the girl he liked it drowned out everybody else? The bit I always remember of King Gainer is that one of the Overman's had an invisibility power and attacks remotely, so when Gainer finally manages to decloak it, the guy is just huddling in his Overman in the corner, pissing his pants. The Overmen and powers in King Gainer always seemed almost like an JRPG in terms of the abilities, with steal, invisibility, copy and so on. EthanSteele posted:Yeah not really sure what that person is on about, M7 is when the music becomes magic. I'd say that's actually Macross Plus, much as it's often held up as a standard bearer for having a more pragmatic, grounded story. Sharon Apple hypnotizes an entire city in seconds, and can make people act against their own self interest. Including having Yang shoot Isamu while Isamu is flying a plane, which, if it worked, would have killed them both. And that's basically magic. Hypnotism is a real thing, but it cannot do anything close to that kind of effect and even the CIA needed to dose people up to their eyeballs in drugs of various kinds to make hypnotism useful during Project MKUltra. More than that, the emotional climax of the film is Sharon hypnotizing Isamu in to unconsciousness while he's flying a variable fighter, and Myung managing to wake him up with her song. A song she sings under her breath, while standing in a building he's flying around. Which, again, magic. It's possible even Macross II used music as magic though honestly. It's just (a) Macross II is barely acknowledged and (b) it's Macross II, and while I know I watched it when I was binging through all the Macross content available years back, I honestly could not tell you anything about it beyond that I liked the concept of the main character being a reporter. It's just a really mediocre, forgettable entry. tsob fucked around with this message at 01:19 on Jul 12, 2019 |
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Jul 12, 2019 01:16
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tsob posted:
I get the magic argument, but I would say Plus is categorically different there. It's mind control, sure, but if hypnosis shows up on a show at all, it almost always is allowed to make people act against their own self interest just due to misunderstanding of hypnosis and subliminal messaging. It's not shown as a trait of music in general, but a trait of Sharon Apple, mind-controlling super AI. On the flipside, Myung waking Isamu up is treated as a personal connection, not a general ability. Love and evil AIs are the things with power. Music is how the power is expressed. Reasonable people may differ and that, but I think there's a big gap between that and 7's iteration of the idea.
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Jul 12, 2019 01:39
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Oh, I would definitely agree that Macross 7 was far more explicit and liberal with the idea (see the previously mentioned song beams), but I don't think it matters that song was just a way to express another power in Plus because it still became something capable of what is essentially magic at that point, rather than SDF having it as a way to express culture and that gap in cultural experience creating a temporary confusion or fear that people could exploit. It's purely psychological in SDF and DYRL, where as Plus made it something more.
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Jul 12, 2019 01:48
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Marx Headroom posted:oh hell yeah, I love that album. The Steven Spielberg movie is pretty good too! I used to have the video game based on the musical. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xu5SEyYyH0I Never finished it, I was very bad at it.
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Jul 12, 2019 03:03
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The thing with the literal song magic in Macross 7 is that it gets built up over the series. This is why Frontier's implementation isn't particularly bad. At the start Basara's just a nuisance to the actual military of M7. Hell, it is a mystery why he even has a state-of-the-art valk until they finally do tell the story behind it. But even then it's more a long shot than some kind of well-researched phenomenon. The other reason is that Basara doesn't give a poo poo, he just gonna sing and rock out. I mean, he does end up caring but a large part is that Basara's going along with it because he gets his chance to share his singing. I've always said that Macross really does spectacle really well and both Frontier and Delta have really good first episodes. It's not that song magic is actually bad, but it's a mix of investment/emphasis. And Delta's just really bad all around. Part of why I don't really consider Plus and Sharon Apple's hypnosong is it treats it as a plot device and it's not really part of an arc that resonates with anything else. It'd be easy to rewrite it as hacking, throw in security bots/cyborgs, and Sharon's just hacking into the YF-19 when Yang manages to shut her out but not before he gets ejected. An actual rewrite would just fit in more natural interactions and poo poo. Point is, Sharon does what she does through a song because it's Macross and people expect a song (it's a really rad song at that) so we get one even if I can't suspend my disbelief. I guess it does resonate somewhat because Sharon's singing ultimately originates from Myung and I guess you could say it means that Myung's singing still has power. It just never really amounts to much, and I don't think a song duel fits with Plus' general tone either.
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Jul 12, 2019 09:29
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Srungle.
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Jul 12, 2019 13:01
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Gripweed posted:Srungle. doo-doot, doo-doot, do-doo GO RIL LA doo-doot, do-doot, do-doo GO RIL LA
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Jul 12, 2019 17:15
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I dislike Macross singing fetish because of how it glorifies idols.
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Jul 12, 2019 17:35
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Siegkrow posted:I dislike Macross singing fetish because of how it glorifies idols. 
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Jul 12, 2019 21:09
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I mean even in the first one she gets full of herself and ends up in creepy relationship with her loser cousin, and when everything goes to poo poo she just fucks off to third wheel her friends, so it's not exactly glamorizing the life.
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Jul 12, 2019 21:58
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Mulva posted:I mean even in the first one she gets full of herself and ends up in creepy relationship with her loser cousin, and when everything goes to poo poo she just fucks off to third wheel her friends, so it's not exactly glamorizing the life. SDF absolutely doesn't glorify the idol life(and in fact makes it look pretty goddamn lovely), but Frontier and Delta have definitely leaned into the "idols are beautiful glamorous superheroines" line pretty hard(because the mass commercialization of idol culture is a very modern phenomenon and those are the two most recent Macross productions). How one feels about that mostly maps to how one feels about the growth and spread of idol culture in general. Plus is weird because Sharon is an idol but she's also an evil computer and the main antagonist. 7's Fire Bomber is a pop rock band rather than having the trappings of idol culture, so it's a bit different.
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Jul 12, 2019 22:07
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Schwarzwald posted:doo-doot, doo-doot, do-doo And now that's slamming together with the Macross discussion to make me think about a Valkyrie with giant speakers blasting "Feel Good Inc." as everything explodes.
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Jul 12, 2019 22:15
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Kanos posted:SDF absolutely doesn't glorify the idol life(and in fact makes it look pretty goddamn lovely), but Frontier and Delta have definitely leaned into the "idols are beautiful glamorous superheroines" line pretty hard(because the mass commercialization of idol culture is a very modern phenomenon and those are the two most recent Macross productions). How one feels about that mostly maps to how one feels about the growth and spread of idol culture in general.
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Jul 12, 2019 23:27
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This is why MX7 is the best because it gives us plenty of awesome Miria, the best mayor ever.
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Jul 13, 2019 00:00
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Endorph posted:counterpoint: the original macross is insanely sexist to the point of being unwatchable, frontier has ranka and her cute frog phone I never asserted SDF wasn't sexist(because it is), so I guess I don't get the counterpoint? I merely said that it makes the idol life look super lovely, which it does. I don't really have a dog in the "idols bad/good?" argument but I understand people who do one way or the other.
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Jul 13, 2019 00:03
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Macross shows Minmei's life as pretty lovely, in Plus the idol is an evil AI, 7 has a rock band, no idols, and Walkure in Delta are more an idol-themed military unit than anything like actual idols. But fair enough on Frontier.
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Jul 13, 2019 00:12
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Gripweed posted:Macross shows Minmei's life as pretty lovely, in Plus the idol is an evil AI, 7 has a rock band, no idols, and Walkure in Delta are more an idol-themed military unit than anything like actual idols. 7 absolutely has idols, the military tries to create their own idol group to mass produce Fire Bomber but it ends up being a total mess!
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Jul 13, 2019 00:16
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I just ended up feeling really bad for Minmay by the end  no one deserves to be stuck with Kaifun.
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Jul 13, 2019 00:20
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new to macross here so forgive my hot take but even if there are sporadic series that aren't making idols out to be miserable, abused/exploited women (sounds like a delightful storyline to repeat ad nauseam in your franchise), is that any worse "glorification" than the swath of mecha that are struggling to tell stories about war while they're commercial art funded by toymakers? like if i had to be honest, deploying the cudgel of wokeness against either side of this coin seems tiresome to me but it may as well be applied equally. also idols really just seem like an easy vessel/vehicle for the actual message macross is pushing of resolving conflict through cultural exchange etc.
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Jul 13, 2019 00:46
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dogsicle posted:new to macross here so forgive my hot take but even if there are sporadic series that aren't making idols out to be miserable, abused/exploited women (sounds like a delightful storyline to repeat ad nauseam in your franchise), is that any worse "glorification" than the swath of mecha that are struggling to tell stories about war while they're commercial art funded by toymakers? like if i had to be honest, deploying the cudgel of wokeness against either side of this coin seems tiresome to me but it may as well be applied equally. The vast majority of shows I can think of that utilize war as a focal point are at least lazily handwaving at the idea that war is terrible and should be stopped or mitigated in some way, "wow cool robot" memes aside. Macross is a little mixed about the cultural exchange thing. SDF was resolved by cultural exchange through music, Plus was entirely about interpersonal relationships and the music kind of existed on the side, 7 returned to the cultural exchange thing, Frontier was less about cultural exchange and more finding some way to communicate with a species that can't communicate in the way we understand communication(ironically enough sharing themes with the 00 movie of all things), and Delta is a goddamned mess where the music isn't a means of peaceful conflict resolution, it's a magic spell that cures illnesses, unlocks ancient superweapons, and provides super combat buffs to friendly pilots and all of the conflict is solved by using these buffs to shoot the bad guys better.
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Jul 13, 2019 01:10
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Argas posted:Part of why I don't really consider Plus and Sharon Apple's hypnosong is it treats it as a plot device and it's not really part of an arc that resonates with anything else. It'd be easy to rewrite it as hacking, throw in security bots/cyborgs, and Sharon's just hacking into the YF-19 when Yang manages to shut her out but not before he gets ejected. An actual rewrite would just fit in more natural interactions and poo poo. Point is, Sharon does what she does through a song because it's Macross and people expect a song (it's a really rad song at that) so we get one even if I can't suspend my disbelief. Sharon's hypnosis does interact with Myung's story though. Sharon is basically Myung's desires made manifest, and if you re-wrote Sharon to affect the story by something other than song, then you'd need to re-write her relationship with Myung to reflect that. Which, to take hacking as an example, doesn't actually make sense, because there's no reason a digitized AI hacker would be a world famous personality or that someone would feel like a failure at hacking and instead of pursuing that passion anymore, manage a digital avatar based on themselves that becomes famous for it. Mulva posted:I mean even in the first one she gets full of herself and ends up in creepy relationship with her loser cousin, and when everything goes to poo poo she just fucks off to third wheel her friends, so it's not exactly glamorizing the life. Minmay is quite happy and living a pretty good life until after the Earth is wiped of all but a handful of people and culture itself collapses because everyone is just trying to recover from a huge war and make do for a few years. It's in those circumstances, when idols are only a minor curiosity she can't make much of a living off of that it all goes to poo poo for her, when Kaifun starts beating her because his own life isn't great given movies aren't popular enough to support him either and so on. The show ends with things have recovered enough that the idol lifestyle is tenable again, given she puts on a huge concert and that coincides with her having personally accepted some things in her life, but I don't think SDF really condemns the idol scene so much as it focuses on Minmay's personal drama. Kanos posted:Plus is weird because Sharon is an idol but she's also an evil computer and the main antagonist. 7's Fire Bomber is a pop rock band rather than having the trappings of idol culture, so it's a bit different. Sharon is a pretty explicit condemnation of idol culture really, since the main reason she exists (or at least, that Myung is tied to her) is because Myung wasn't a good enough idol to make it on her own. Whether that's because she wasn't a good enough singer, charismatic and confident enough of a personality, good looking enough, some mix of all of those or whatever isn't stated to my knowledge, but she became the persona behind Sharon to hide from her own fears regarding the idol scene. Sharon's voice and personality are based off her, but not actually her and instead Sharon is just a product made from Myung. Something that appears to sting Myung even before Sharon tries to actively kill her, given that Sharon is more popular than she ever was despite Myung herself doing a lot of the backroom work to make Sharon a success. On the other hand, 7 includes the "Jamming Birds", who are a group of idols created by the military to be a more controlled and marketable weapon in the vein of Fire Bomber; who can influence the battlefield with anima spiritia of their own, but fail immediately almost every time they appear because they're basically a soulless rip off of Fire Bomber. tsob fucked around with this message at 01:46 on Jul 13, 2019 |
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Jul 13, 2019 01:17
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dogsicle posted:new to macross here so forgive my hot take but even if there are sporadic series that aren't making idols out to be miserable, abused/exploited women (sounds like a delightful storyline to repeat ad nauseam in your franchise), is that any worse "glorification" than the swath of mecha that are struggling to tell stories about war while they're commercial art funded by toymakers? like if i had to be honest, deploying the cudgel of wokeness against either side of this coin seems tiresome to me but it may as well be applied equally. A major thing is that 99.9% of mecha shows are "war is terrible and should be stopped" and the other 1% is "war is awesome because we are broken hosed up people" In comparison a lot of idol stuff genuinely glorifies the concept and at best says that the bad idol stuff is the exception to the norm.
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Jul 13, 2019 01:20
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Kanos posted:Delta is a goddamned mess where the music isn't a means of peaceful conflict resolution, it's a magic spell that cures illnesses, unlocks ancient superweapons, and provides super combat buffs to friendly pilots and all of the conflict is solved by using these buffs to shoot the bad guys better. Honestly, I think Delta handles this pretty well, because it asks "You're a singer who loves singing, in a world where music does all this crazy stuff, and you work for the military. How does this affect the way you relate to your music? Is music just a weapon, or something more?" I get that it might not be a take everyone wants, but it's interesting to have an arms dealer speculating that in the wake of the previous Macross shows music must be a weapon set up by the Protoculture, and this is an unbearable idea to the protagonists but it's hard for them to argue with his reasoning there and then. That scene's not in the movie, because the movie prioritises having actually good pacing, but the theme of why you'd sing is emphasised by focusing in on Freyja as the lead over Hayate. In both versions, Freyja's influenced to become part of Walkure by loving their music and the artists that came before them in UN culture. In the movie, the finale comes down to a character being told to sing to use supernatural power to change the world and rejecting it in favour of singing with friends and enjoying music as music, and that more than anything is what destroys the enemy plan, though skimming through the TV finale I had forgotten quite how different it is in that regard and don't have time on a work morning to rewatch it and evaluate how it fits with these themes.
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Jul 13, 2019 08:00
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Tribladeofchaos posted:I just ended up feeling really bad for Minmay by the end Yeah, agreed. Kaifun was just plain abusive, what with completely controlling Minmay's work and social life. I remember thinking how incredibly hosed up it was when Hikaru visited Minmay's aunt and uncle, two people that Minmay's been closest to, and they mentioned they haven't talked to her for ages. The only part of SDF that made me go "Oh gently caress you!" was Kaifun being the one to part ways with Minmay. I couldn't believe the writers actually thought having Kaifun give the "You've changed so much" speech was a good idea.
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Jul 13, 2019 08:18
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Kaifun fuckin sucks and I hate everything about him. He's a textbook abuser and just awful.ImpAtom posted:A major thing is that 99.9% of mecha shows are "war is terrible and should be stopped" and the other 1% is "war is awesome because we are broken hosed up people" In comparison a lot of idol stuff genuinely glorifies the concept and at best says that the bad idol stuff is the exception to the norm. Yeah, at least a bunch of mecha stuff gives at least token lip service to the idea that war is bad compared to Idol stuff where none of them come even close to showing even 1% of the level of exploitation involved.
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Jul 13, 2019 18:24
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dogsicle posted:new to macross here so forgive my hot take but even if there are sporadic series that aren't making idols out to be miserable, abused/exploited women (sounds like a delightful storyline to repeat ad nauseam in your franchise), is that any worse "glorification" than the swath of mecha that are struggling to tell stories about war while they're commercial art funded by toymakers? like if i had to be honest, deploying the cudgel of wokeness against either side of this coin seems tiresome to me but it may as well be applied equally. I don't want to overstate this, because defaulting to ideological rhetoric in place of forming your own opinion is definitely a thing in some circles, but someone choosing not to watch a show because it depicts something they don't want to see isn't "deploying the cudgel of wokeness."
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Jul 13, 2019 18:31
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ImpAtom posted:A major thing is that 99.9% of mecha shows are "war is terrible and should be stopped" and the other 1% is "war is awesome because we are broken hosed up people" In comparison a lot of idol stuff genuinely glorifies the concept and at best says that the bad idol stuff is the exception to the norm. i feel like sometimes it can come off as mere lip service in the face of how those shows are commercialized but that's 1) unfair to hold specifically against mecha and 2) more in the metatexual realm when this was brought up as just not finding macross to denounce the entertainment industry in enough of its text Schwarzwald posted:I don't want to overstate this, because defaulting to ideological rhetoric in place of forming your own opinion is definitely a thing in some circles, but someone choosing not to watch a show because it depicts something they don't want to see isn't "deploying the cudgel of wokeness." fair, i mostly approached the post in the context that this subforum has had a weird anti-idol thing since zorak started actively encouraging it. dropping "glorification of idols" made me skeptical of there being a more genuine reason behind it.
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Jul 13, 2019 19:33
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Schwarzwald posted:doo-doot, doo-doot, do-doo Reverse the order and it works to 'Baby Shark'.
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Jul 14, 2019 01:06
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dogsicle posted:i feel like sometimes it can come off as mere lip service in the face of how those shows are commercialized but that's 1) unfair to hold specifically against mecha and 2) more in the metatexual realm when this was brought up as just not finding macross to denounce the entertainment industry in enough of its text There's some legit reasons why some people don't like idol culture besides following a trend set by Zorak or "deploying the cudgel of wokeness". There's a lot of gross stuff with regard to exploitation of girls and women who work as idols and the way it deliberately shapes the psychology of the super duper crazy idol fans(like the dudes who go crazy and start sending death threats when they find out their idol of choice was at some point touched by a man). I can totally understand why someone might be bothered by how pretty much every show involving idol culture treats it as a glorious pedestal of fame and happiness. It doesn't bother me enough to not watch Macross or whatever but it's a consideration for some people! Unfortunately, it's pretty hard to find anything in the entertainment industry that doesn't involve some kind of lovely exploitation at some level in today's world; anime has problems with VA/animator exploitation, video games have developer exploitation, TV shows and sports have huge wealth gap disparities, so on and so forth.
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Jul 14, 2019 02:13
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