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Oocc there's a guillotine waiting for you too, bud. Thanks for sticking up for the literal worst people on Earth. Sincerely, someone working their hands to the bone in retail hell so some fancy lad can point to their quarterly bonuses.
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Jun 20, 2019 17:19
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fishmech posted:If regular people were getting paid at their normal work rate for 20 hours a week of vacationing, running errands, seeing the doctor? Then it'd be comparable. Office work can be so different from normal work even before management responsibilities and excess meetings come up. Just to make a quick comparison from my own work-life these past three months: 1. Consulting - No work hours, just meetings, tons of things that need to be done by a certain date and poo poo-tons of traveling, no concrete work-day. 2. Fast Food - Pin-point precision work hours, never more than one task or assignment at a time, work ends the literal second the clock ticks off. 3. 9-5 Office (no it's not tech) - Regulated but flexible work hours, 10-15 work tasks at any time, 6 meetings a week (sometimes more), work-day ends when there are no tasks requiring immediate completion left. Guess which of these three doesn't have any down-time. I've worked many industries and the more complex and coordination-oriented works gets the more time just gets wasted. When your job is primarily meeting, talking and coordinating 1-50 people your work-day is going to be very in-efficient with tons of downtime where you're just waiting for stuff or getting to it. At some point your workday is more about you being available than you actually working. Bureaucratic organizations are just extremely in-efficient when they scale, it's a facet of the modern work environment. That said, CEOs should absolutely earn about 100x-100000x times less than they do today, our society sucks and capitalism is a disease. MiddleOne fucked around with this message at 17:23 on Jun 20, 2019 |
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Jun 20, 2019 17:21
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MiddleOne posted:Guess which of these three doesn't have any down-time. Unless you've been very lucky with your office life, that's still not really comparable. In general, CEOs and upper-level management have drastically more freedom to define what counts as "work." This is why fishmech's graph includes travel, exercise, and other personal bullshit as making up nearly half of their work week. The average office worker has an absolutely stupid amount of downtime, but that downtime almost always amounts to a kind of semi-enforced, non-active work day. Very few office workers are free to just go gently caress off and do whatever they want, they're mostly stuck killing time on a computer until they need to do something specific. If you have a regular office job where you can routinely just run off and do errands while you're on the clock, then consider yourself very lucky.
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Jun 20, 2019 17:27
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yeah, the difference between CEOs and office drones is that CEOs don't have to justify tangentially work related meetings as billable, and they can take a two hour lunch and classify it as a meeting rather than getting written up for being out of office. the power dynamic around fuzzy work tasks is different when you sign the checks rather than cash them
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Jun 20, 2019 17:34
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EDIT: Beaten^^^^^^Paradoxish posted:The average office worker has an absolutely stupid amount of downtime, but that downtime almost always amounts to a kind of semi-enforced, non-active work day. Very few office workers are free to just go gently caress off and do whatever they want, they're mostly stuck killing time on a computer until they need to do something specific. If you have a regular office job where you can routinely just run off and do errands while you're on the clock, then consider yourself very lucky. That's my point though. The CEO working out on work-hours is them doing exactly that because unlike an office drone under a toxic work-culture they have no immediate supervisor above them who gets paid to waste their time.
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Jun 20, 2019 17:35
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I was never more busy than when I worked retail. Literally every second you're visible to a customer was work time, and you weren't free to disappear from clock in to clock out, except mandated breaks and those were strictly timed. The same with call center work. Back to back calls until your first 5 minute break then back to back calls again until your next break. Now, as a "Quality Assurance Engineer" I can literally do whatever I want as long as I'm in the building and finish my projects, which are never as strictly monitored as warehouse, retail, customer service, or fast food work. And more often than not the projects I have can be done half assed and still be praiseworthy. At other times I'm just waiting for an automated or collaborative process to end. Right this moment I'm being unusually productive: I'm making GBS threads and poo poo posting on company time.
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Jun 20, 2019 17:37
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:I think pretty much all professional jobs end up being significant down time. Like, it's good and funny to apply "you got time to lean, you got time to clean" against CEOs because they are so rich, but I am pretty sure most people in this thread are posting from work too. I’m posting from the toilet. In France you get paid for your commute to and from work.
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Jun 20, 2019 17:42
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American work culture (and wealth culture) is really hosed up. The less your labor costs per hour the more it's scrutinized down to the penny, but as you cost your employer more the more wasteful your labor can be.
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Jun 20, 2019 17:42
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anonumos posted:American work culture (and wealth culture) is really hosed up. The less your labor costs per hour the more it's scrutinized down to the penny, but as you cost your employer more the more wasteful your labor can be. This is because most professional jobs don't really have 40 hours per week of work that needs to be done on a regular basis. I'm a contractor and my billable rate is hilariously high in part because I'm only actually billing for time that I work. This is the norm and everyone I work with understands that an estimate of 120 hours isn't the same as three weeks of work for a full-time employee. It's an extremely strange and counter intuitive system that we've managed to work ourselves into.
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Jun 20, 2019 17:47
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It also doesn't help that bullshit work is often a norm for office employees. There are people who clock 40 hours a week but only actually have 10 hours of work to do. Meanwhile that work is actually completely meaningless. How many people just fill out spreadsheets that nobody actually looks at for a few hours a week?
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Jun 20, 2019 18:31
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Invalid Validation posted:After a certain point we lose productivity but since the US is stupid as poo poo we pretend working ourselves to the bone is good. The trucking industry has some rules that are pretty good at being predictive of this. 70 hours in a rolling 7 days that includes everything. If one tracks it, one will find once you get over that one starts loving up. It's not an experimentally derived rule, it's an experience derived one. The most hours I've ever worked continuously and most of that was driving between facilities (60%ish) was 26 straight. But I don't have that situation anymore. Paradoxish posted:Very few office workers are free to just go gently caress off and do whatever they want, they're mostly stuck killing time on a computer until they need to do something specific. If you have a regular office job where you can routinely just run off and do errands while you're on the clock, then consider yourself very lucky. The stupidest thing is: If one gives people that freedom, they become way more productive. When employees are given the ability to scedule and make appointments for tasks and are really allowed to do so rather than having it dictated from above... They tend to get more poo poo done and much faster. If employees especially in knowledge work positions are given the freedom to do so it's possible to transition from the lovely state to that lucky one. A big thing is the ability to tell people no, a gentle go gently caress yourself you need to wait. Think : " We don't have availibility for that right now, I can put you on the calendar for friday. Generally speaking we need atleast 48 hours notice to ensure availibility." That and understanding that clients / customers need to be trained. But autonomy has to be given to employees for those things to happen. The shortest way to describe why so many employers don't allow this better situation is, trust. They don't trust us. It's a self fulfilling situation no you can't trust people you treat like poo poo. It's so loving stupid because so many lives could be so much better.
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Jun 20, 2019 18:47
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Meanwhile... *clocks out for lunch and walks back to break room to get sandwich* EXCUSE ME, can I get some help??? "Uh, I actually just clocked out for lunch, let me grab someone to help you." *customer sighs and throws up their hands* Never mind I'll find it myself. I've never been treated so terribly by members of the general public, and I spent five years working at Planned Parenthood.
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Jun 20, 2019 18:49
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Yeah I still dont know how my dad has put up with retail since the seventies. I know why he has. But some of the poo poo he deals with would make me snap.
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Jun 20, 2019 18:57
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Man if we want to talk about bullshit makework to give the illusion of being busy, consider a job where you mainly get rated on 99.99% yearly server uptime and you've designed things properly to meet that. In addition to that, you can't make changes except during clearly defined off hour maintenance windows. Edit: AKA, when you did everything right and there is nothing more than a few hours a week maintenance work, "what are we paying you for." When things go wrong, "what are we paying you for." Dameius fucked around with this message at 20:41 on Jun 20, 2019 |
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Jun 20, 2019 20:39
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I realise that there's a huge gray area within entertainment & the arts, but I frequently wonder how much work is genuinely "socially necessary". I imagine that a lot is absolute fluff because the capitalist machine has to keep a certain level of wage slavery going in order to preserve their power position.
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Jun 20, 2019 21:02
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JustJeff88 posted:I realise that there's a huge gray area within entertainment & the arts, but I frequently wonder how much work is genuinely "socially necessary". I imagine that a lot is absolute fluff because the capitalist machine has to keep a certain level of wage slavery going in order to preserve their power position. And otoh I would kill to have like 6 more staff people on hand at all times at my store but razor thin margins to keep exec bonuses high and keep the business running on life support is not something you can do if you want to have a properly staffed store, apparently.
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Jun 20, 2019 22:18
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Yeah, retail getting cut to the bone suucks. I work a day that everyone else takes off and its just a madhouse.
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Jun 20, 2019 23:22
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Management learned that we don't like loving over our fellow workers so they schedule us super light so that when one of us calls out it fucks everyone else
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Jun 21, 2019 00:07
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JustJeff88 posted:I realise that there's a huge gray area within entertainment & the arts, but I frequently wonder how much work is genuinely "socially necessary". I imagine that a lot is absolute fluff because the capitalist machine has to keep a certain level of wage slavery going in order to preserve their power position. There are gray areas everywhere and it's effectively impossible to disentangle our highly connected economy. Like, I'd happily argue that advertising is a parasite on the system and largely a net negative for society, but you couldn't just make all advertising disappear without severely loving society up in the process. A lot of "useless" work exists to fill genuine needs, it's just filling them in the worst, most harmful ways possible because markets are actually wildly inefficient in many ways.
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Jun 21, 2019 02:16
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Paradoxish posted:There are gray areas everywhere and it's effectively impossible to disentangle our highly connected economy. Like, I'd happily argue that advertising is a parasite on the system and largely a net negative for society, but you couldn't just make all advertising disappear without severely loving society up in the process. A lot of "useless" work exists to fill genuine needs, it's just filling them in the worst, most harmful ways possible because markets are actually wildly inefficient in many ways. I agree and disagree in roughly equal measure. I agree that markets are wildly inefficient in many ways because they are designed to maximize profit, not utility. However, I think that non-predatory advertising is possible if probably incompatible with human nature. It is entirely conceivable to have advertising channels designed to inform but not distort or incite consumer frenzy. So much effort and human ingenuity is spent getting people to buy more poo poo that they don't need, and having the focus being on "make a place for people to find solutions to problems and needs is" much more benign than "do everything possible to get people to buy as much as you can, which leads to psychological problems and massive environmental damage." Again, it's entirely plausible, but people gently caress it up: see capitalism vs. any other economic system.
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Jun 21, 2019 02:41
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:I think pretty much all professional jobs end up being significant down time. Like, it's good and funny to apply "you got time to lean, you got time to clean" against CEOs because they are so rich, but I am pretty sure most people in this thread are posting from work too. Most jobs don't let you charge time spent on "personal appointments" and "exercise" but do go on
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Jun 21, 2019 08:13
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If two CEOs are close enough to throw something at each other they both clock it as "work" pretty universally. Oh, you went to the gym and another CEO was in the building? It was networking.
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Jun 21, 2019 08:46
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It's a feudal system.
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Jun 21, 2019 09:06
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Ghost Leviathan posted:It's a futile system.
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Jun 21, 2019 17:31
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Dameius posted:Yeah I am/do, but I don't pretend to be some work god while poo poo posting. Also unlike CEOs, I legit have the odd couple days here and there where I have an unbroken stream of work where I am doing 12-14 hours and I usually also work at least one weekend a month during odd hours when we have maintenance windows. But during the work week there is a lot of filler time spread throughout. Sometimes I spend all day sitting in front of an automated test frame and I have to click a dialog box that randomly shows up when the software glitches out. So I click a box that says "OK" maybe once every ten minutes. If I don't do that the test won't continue. Today is one of those days. It owns.
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Jun 21, 2019 17:34
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poo poo POST MALONE posted:Sometimes I spend all day sitting in front of an automated test frame and I have to click a dialog box that randomly shows up when the software glitches out. So I click a box that says "OK" maybe once every ten minutes. If I don't do that the test won't continue. Aka podcast and YouTube day.
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Jun 21, 2019 23:30
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Maybe? I don't really know your job. But I bet if someone put a camera on you you won't have a 12-14 hour unbroken stream of work either. (or, again, I don't know your job, so you might specifically, but it'd be statistically not the norm). Like, CEOs are definitely bad but it's pretty normal for most jobs to count numbers of hours with all the other stuff in the middle included. Yeah Dogg there's no difference in terms of proportion here at all the hour I spend in a night posting, cumulatively, is the same as some ceo counting getting a massage in the office twice a week as part of their 80 hour work weeks
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Jun 22, 2019 23:57
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When you start defending CEOs and corporations even just a tiny bit you are on the wrong side period.
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Jun 23, 2019 03:12
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I defend their right to pay a 90%+ tax rate instead of being executed.
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Jun 24, 2019 10:42
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:I think pretty much all professional jobs end up being significant down time. Like, it's good and funny to apply "you got time to lean, you got time to clean" against CEOs because they are so rich, but I am pretty sure most people in this thread are posting from work too. Yes, most professional jobs count personal appointments, travel, and exercise as work time and don't at all require PTO. 
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Jun 24, 2019 15:23
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https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/13/retail-store-closures-in-2019-freds-charming-charlie-and-more.html 7,062 announced retail closings so far this year. Estimated to be 12,000 total by the end. This is way above the 8,139 from 2017.
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Jul 14, 2019 14:52
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Paradoxish posted:you couldn't just make all advertising disappear without severely loving society up in the process
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Jul 14, 2019 15:00
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https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/13/barneys-explores-possible-july-bankruptcy-filing-grapples-with-manhattan-rent-hike.html Looks like Barneys will the next retailer to file bankruptcy.
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Jul 14, 2019 15:04
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Paradoxish posted:Like, I'd happily argue that advertising is a parasite on the system and largely a net negative for society, but you couldn't just make all advertising disappear without severely loving society up in the process. The economy isn't like an ecosystem or some other weird metaphor. You could easily simply outlaw advertising. It wouldn't "severely" gently caress up society. It wouldn't even gently caress up society. Some industries would have to change their business model, that's it. If you made advertising illegal, like, tomorrow, that would cause a recession. But if you passed legislation that had a non-insane plan to end all advertising over a couple of years, businesses would just adjust. If you actually think otherwise I have to assume you work in an ad agency or something.
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Jul 14, 2019 16:46
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i am harry posted:I think we'd all survive remarkably well with just a Yellow Pages phone directory. But without advertising how could I decide which product to buy that is identical to every other product like it except for branding?!
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Jul 14, 2019 16:56
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pseudanonymous posted:The economy isn't like an ecosystem or some other weird metaphor. You could easily simply outlaw advertising. It wouldn't "severely" gently caress up society. It wouldn't even gently caress up society. Some industries would have to change their business model, that's it. That last line is a bit harsh, but I see your point. Society has been so conditioned by the relentless "must sell things all the time, ALL THE TIME!" that people can scarcely imagine a different way of doing things. Many countries have much stricter rules about the quantity and duration of advertisements, and there's nothing stopping a society from having adds be, say, in a central location and people can go there when they have need of a solution to a problem or just want to find a nice Thai restaurant. Given that the industrialised world has the twofold problem right now of 1) a gross excess of non-necessary consumption that is killing the planet in an insatiable drive for infinite growth in a finite world 2) massive amounts of deprivation in the middle of abundance, focusing on wholesome food and modest shelter rather than trying to outmarket 15 other functionally identical loving laptops would be a clear improvement.
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Jul 14, 2019 17:30
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Y'all dummies must hate all entertainment because it is funded almost entirely by ads. Just television (cable and otherwise) and all search engines and free websites shutting down would result in massive societal change.
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Jul 14, 2019 20:58
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Lord_Hambrose posted:Y'all dummies must hate all entertainment because it is funded almost entirely by ads. Just television (cable and otherwise) and all search engines and free websites shutting down would result in massive societal change. Most of internet infrastructure probably should be state rather than privately financed tbh.
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Jul 14, 2019 21:08
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pseudanonymous posted:The economy isn't like an ecosystem or some other weird metaphor. You could easily simply outlaw advertising. It wouldn't "severely" gently caress up society. It wouldn't even gently caress up society. Some industries would have to change their business model, that's it. Even ignoring the obvious 1st Amendment concerns, through what mechanism would you ban the act of telling other people about a thing you make or a service you provide? Advertising wouldn't stop, it would just morph into whatever form is still permitted under the new system.
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Jul 14, 2019 21:32
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Lord_Hambrose posted:Y'all dummies must hate all entertainment because it is funded almost entirely by ads. Just television (cable and otherwise) and all search engines and free websites shutting down would result in massive societal change. Many of us acknowledge and accept that, massive societal change is necessary
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Jul 14, 2019 21:43
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