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Jim Butcher posted:Magic is something that happens because you truly believe that when you set out to do it that you should be able to do that sort of thing. I think this is probably the key to understanding the effects of evil magic. It's not so much that "killing people with magic will gently caress with your head" or at least it's not just that; it's that "killing people with magic implies that you're already hosed up to a point, because you believe on some level that it is good and right to do so or else it wouldn't work. And the more you do it, the firmer that belief gets and the worse off you are". What that implies about the exception for killing non-humans is kind of interesting; it certainly suggests that the White Council doesn't value non-human life particularly highly and that it doesn't expect its members to either. Because, again, you can't burn a vampire to death with magic fire unless you believe you can and should do that. (Which, given that the vampire in question is almost certainly trying to eat your face off or worse, is probably pretty reasonable. Still, applying it to the Fae, or to other critters from the Nevernever has interesting implications.) e. (There's probably an analogy here between the Blackstaff -- the weapon itself and the position on the Council -- and the ways that institutionalized violence can be made to seem okay even when individual violence isn't but I am a bit too tired to make it right now.) docbeard fucked around with this message at 14:19 on Jul 10, 2019 |
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Jul 10, 2019 14:14
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Proteus Jones posted:I think it would probably bother me less, and make Harry a much more interesting character, if it weren't for this. He never seems to suffer any real consequences for his lack of control and thoughtlessness. And you're right, he feels mopey and bad and briefly questions his worth and then it turns out Hey, that was actually the right thing to do after all or someone external validates his worth and says "if you just keep trying to be better it's all OK". And then it is, and we never really visit it again. No consequences? I guess beyond his girlfriend/mother of his child getting partially turned into a Red Court vampire and then killed, getting his left hand burned and his back broken, having a shadow of one of the Fallen in his head, then getting himself into so much trouble that she sacrifices herself to save him (meaning he's gotten two mothers killed), cutting a deal with Mab, binding himself to Demonreach, putting his apprentice in a situation where she's first haunted by arranging for his murder, then by failing to fill on for him, and finally turned into the Winter Lady, and getting the woman he loves injured for life. Plus I'm fairly sure Mister may have missed a few meals in there somewhere.
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Jul 10, 2019 15:31
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All of the impacts on Harry feel relevant in those books but rarely seem to feel like that carry weight in the overall narrative. His hand was the most satisfying and weighty example. It was a good metaphor that went more than skin deep and was reflective of a deeper change in Harry. The series really needed more of THAT.
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Jul 10, 2019 16:00
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Hub Cat posted:He has said in a couple of Q&A's that the Blackstaff protects Ebenezar from being driven insane by the negative affects of black magic in some way. This is insanely lame, goddamn
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Jul 10, 2019 18:25
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If I remember correctly wasn't it implied that it was granny winters walking stick? That would kind of make sense from the murder if you need (want) to angle.
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Jul 10, 2019 18:41
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Narsham posted:No consequences? I guess beyond his girlfriend/mother of his child getting partially turned into a Red Court vampire and then killed, getting his left hand burned and his back broken, having a shadow of one of the Fallen in his head, then getting himself into so much trouble that she sacrifices herself to save him (meaning he's gotten two mothers killed), cutting a deal with Mab, binding himself to Demonreach, putting his apprentice in a situation where she's first haunted by arranging for his murder, then by failing to fill on for him, and finally turned into the Winter Lady, and getting the woman he loves injured for life. Plus I'm fairly sure Mister may have missed a few meals in there somewhere. I do notice that most of those are consequences that other people pay for Harry's mistakes. Slanderer posted:This is insanely lame, goddamn Yeah, I agree. Who wants to bet a climatic scene in a book is gonna involve Harry getting his hands on the Black Staff and using his unlimited power to annihilate all of his foes? Granted, murdering supernatural creatures seems to be okay in theory and practice so he'd have to be killing a lot of wizards or something. docbeard posted:What that implies about the exception for killing non-humans is kind of interesting; it certainly suggests that the White Council doesn't value non-human life particularly highly and that it doesn't expect its members to either. Because, again, you can't burn a vampire to death with magic fire unless you believe you can and should do that. (Which, given that the vampire in question is almost certainly trying to eat your face off or worse, is probably pretty reasonable. Still, applying it to the Fae, or to other critters from the Nevernever has interesting implications.) I think the problem with this is that it ties into my confusion about the Laws of Magic being immutable laws of reality or just Wizard Law, because the non-human exception would imply, if the Wizard Laws are just a reflection of the immutable laws of reality, that killing non-human is strictly never an evil act, no matter what. Which is kinda hosed up.
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Jul 10, 2019 20:30
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Kchama posted:I think the problem with this is that it ties into my confusion about the Laws of Magic being immutable laws of reality or just Wizard Law, because the non-human exception would imply, if the Wizard Laws are just a reflection of the immutable laws of reality, that killing non-human is strictly never an evil act, no matter what. This is just my take, but I think the Laws started out as someone (possibly the original Merlin) saying "Okay, doing these seven things is REALLY DANGEROUS and can gently caress YOU UP if you aren't careful" and the White Council, being a legalistic and authoritarian body, turned them into Capital-L Laws. But yeah, there's certainly the potential for something hosed up there. If it were me writing it (always a dangerous road to go down, I know), I'd have it so that willingly murdering any sentient being with magic could mess you up (because the mindset that can lead you to decide that someone isn't actually a person is the real problem) but that the White Council doesn't really give a poo poo if someone has a mad-on for vampires or fae so they won't enforce the law unless you start murdering "real people" too.
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Jul 10, 2019 21:25
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docbeard posted:This is just my take, but I think the Laws started out as someone (possibly the original Merlin) saying "Okay, doing these seven things is REALLY DANGEROUS and can gently caress YOU UP if you aren't careful" and the White Council, being a legalistic and authoritarian body, turned them into Capital-L Laws. Besides something like that, I'd just drop the whole 'it does SOUL DAMAGE if you break Wizard Laws!' idea entirely, or that it's some representation of Immutable Laws Of Reality.
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Jul 10, 2019 21:42
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Kchama posted:Besides something like that, I'd just drop the whole 'it does SOUL DAMAGE if you break Wizard Laws!' idea entirely, or that it's some representation of Immutable Laws Of Reality. Having the laws be real powers of the universe but also only these exact laws just leaves a lot of open ground for wizards to do insanely lovely things without them actually being black magic. I guess the honest answer that we are gonna have to accept is that Butcher basically just writes D&D but with guns and you're either gonna accept the pulp and overlook all the problematic elements or move onto a more thoughtful writer. Hub Cat fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Jul 10, 2019 |
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Jul 10, 2019 21:52
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Hub Cat posted:Having the laws be real powers of the universe but also only these exact laws just leaves a lot of open ground for wizards to do insanely lovely things without them actually being black magic. I guess the honest answer that we are gonna have to accept is that Butcher basically just writes D&D but with guns and you're either gonna accept the pulp and overlook all the problematic elements or move onto a more thoughtful writer. To be fair, the idea I had basically makes it easier to be D&D with guns without leaving as many openings for people to question them.
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Jul 10, 2019 22:25
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docbeard posted:This is just my take, but I think the Laws started out as someone (possibly the original Merlin) saying "Okay, doing these seven things is REALLY DANGEROUS and can gently caress YOU UP if you aren't careful" and the White Council, being a legalistic and authoritarian body, turned them into Capital-L Laws. This seems like a good interpretation. After all, loving with time is #6 on the Big List Of Things That Make Morgan Do The Choppy-Choppy, but the OG Merlin himself did just that to build Demonreach. Harry didn't kill Justin and then have to fight off an inexplicable urge to murder more, he just honestly believes right down at the bottom of his soul that killing to protect the people cares about is justifiable, and that is a very slippery slope. Molly didn't gently caress with her friend's heads and then became a mind-loving monster, she just really believes that stopping people from making wrong choices is okay - almost like a kid with a dad who does just that, but still too young to see the nuance in his actions. Hell, #7, Thou Shall Not Open The Outer Gates, well Rashid is part and parcel of a Fae operation that does just that on a tiny scale to conduct ongoing warfare.
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Jul 10, 2019 22:32
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rndmnmbr posted:This seems like a good interpretation. After all, loving with time is #6 on the Big List Of Things That Make Morgan Do The Choppy-Choppy, but the OG Merlin himself did just that to build Demonreach. Harry didn't kill Justin and then have to fight off an inexplicable urge to murder more, he just honestly believes right down at the bottom of his soul that killing to protect the people cares about is justifiable, and that is a very slippery slope. Molly didn't gently caress with her friend's heads and then became a mind-loving monster, she just really believes that stopping people from making wrong choices is okay - almost like a kid with a dad who does just that, but still too young to see the nuance in his actions. Tell Butcher and the books that, since Butcher has confirmed that it's not just Legalistic Laws but "The Universe Punishes You For This With Evil Karma".
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Jul 10, 2019 22:35
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rndmnmbr posted:
I got the impression that they were just defending the gates, not running sorties into the dungeon dimensions.
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Jul 10, 2019 22:37
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Kchama posted:Tell Butcher and the books that, since Butcher has confirmed that it's not just Legalistic Laws but "The Universe Punishes You For This With Evil Karma". Death of the Author is a thing too.
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Jul 10, 2019 22:38
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rndmnmbr posted:Death of the Author is a thing too. Its a thing thats literally in the text.  Death of the Author is about not taking the author's outside poo poo into account and letting the text speak for itself. Not just a blanket 'I can make up whatever!' thing.
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Jul 10, 2019 22:48
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 It literally has physical affects in universe, when Dresden walks in on Elaine after Justin enthralled her he could feel the presence and wizards can literally see warlocks if they use the Sight. Dresden and the Council are basically just split on how much black magic damage is too much.
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Jul 10, 2019 22:51
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rndmnmbr posted:Death of the Author is a thing too. Death of the Book sure as hell isn't. I specified 'and the books' as the early ones straight up say it's bad karma and not just Made-Up Wizard Laws.
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Jul 10, 2019 22:59
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Kchama posted:I do notice that most of those are consequences that other people pay for Harry's mistakes. If you think that having terrible things happen to your friends and loved ones as a result of your own mistakes means you got off lightly, I don't know what to tell you. Harry as a character is explicitly written as not caring too much about direct personal harm or consequences, while being haunted by harm done to those he's trying to protect. Killing him would be letting him off lightly. In fact, he literally arranges his own death as the easy way out of facing the consequences of his actions.
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Jul 11, 2019 00:09
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Beachcomber posted:I got the impression that they were just defending the gates, not running sorties into the dungeon dimensions. They sally out past the gate to fight them on the ground before it. Rashid uses his magic decoder eye to check fighters who come back to see if they're dusted with demonic ovaltine. Narsham posted:If you think that having terrible things happen to your friends and loved ones as a result of your own mistakes means you got off lightly, I don't know what to tell you. Harry as a character is explicitly written as not caring too much about direct personal harm or consequences, while being haunted by harm done to those he's trying to protect. Killing him would be letting him off lightly. In fact, he literally arranges his own death as the easy way out of facing the consequences of his actions. The problem with this is that 1) When something bad happens to one of Harry's friends, it reads, in the narrative, as Harry-centric. Harry generally uses it as a means to flagellate himself. And they usually, if not absolve him, then forgive him. 2) Almost every really bad thing or impulse Harry has done has been under the influence of something else, which robs it of narrative weight. The reason why the lovely things Alex does matter and why they hit hard is because it's part of who he is as a character and there's no wiggle room for him to deflect or shift blame. Later on when Caldera, and then Deleo ( especially Deleo ) lay into him about what kind of person he really is, and he starts dropping his guard and getting angry, that's an interesting character moment. The end of Changes, and the whole of Ghost Story, "this is how YOU hosed UP, this is how your selfish, cowardly act screwed everyone you know and love" turns into a big pffffffffffft when no actually the devil did it NerdyMcNerdNerd fucked around with this message at 01:20 on Jul 11, 2019 |
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Jul 11, 2019 01:13
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Iirc Butcher stated that the bad karma you get from Lawbreaking fucks with the barriers of reality but on a small scale. One guy being able to chill at the Outer Gates or kill humans with magic doesn't make a significant difference, but if everyone is walking around doing it poo poo could get hosed up real fast.
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Jul 11, 2019 14:12
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-Fish- posted:Iirc Butcher stated that the bad karma you get from Lawbreaking fucks with the barriers of reality but on a small scale. One guy being able to chill at the Outer Gates or kill humans with magic doesn't make a significant difference, but if everyone is walking around doing it poo poo could get hosed up real fast. Is that why He Who Walks Behind shows up after Dresden kills Justin, beyond DuMorne just siccing him on Harry?
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Jul 11, 2019 19:20
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DarkHorse posted:Is that why He Who Walks Behind shows up after Dresden kills Justin, beyond DuMorne just siccing him on Harry? No, He Who Walks Behind was summoned by Justin before Harry killed him. Harry was originally just going to run away; it wasn't until after HWWB showed up that Harry realised he was gonna have to go back and deal with Justin if he wanted to survive.
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Jul 11, 2019 20:04
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It also is stated that Molly's dark magic use was what made her a beacon for nasty stuff. It wouldn't be surprising if Harry's is part of why Man and Nicky and so many other terrifying people view him as recruit rather than kill on sight.
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Jul 11, 2019 20:19
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ImpAtom posted:It also is stated that Molly's dark magic use was what made her a beacon for nasty stuff. It wouldn't be surprising if Harry's is part of why Man and Nicky and so many other terrifying people view him as recruit rather than kill on sight. I mean Dresden was a great recruit for Mab and Marcone, Nic just went about it the wrong way. Hub Cat fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Jul 11, 2019 |
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Jul 11, 2019 21:47
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Artonos posted:I think it's implied that it's grandma winters cane too isn't it? It's been a while since I've read the books. But I think she mentions losing it and thinking a wizard took it or something along those lines. I asked Butcher about the Blackstaff at a couple of different signing events. He more or less confirmed its the walking stick...but that that's not the whole story
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Jul 12, 2019 02:23
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NerdyMcNerdNerd posted:The problem with this is that Yeah, this is more or less what I was thinking of when I said that.
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Jul 13, 2019 04:16
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I'm trying to remember an urban fantasy, not Dresden, where they know a lot about the secret fae world or whatever, but the main character asks about Santa and they're suddenly like "yeah, we don't know what the fucks up with that and we are absolutely done with trying to find out."
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Jul 13, 2019 04:54
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jivjov posted:I asked Butcher about the Blackstaff at a couple of different signing events. He more or less confirmed its the walking stick...but that that's not the whole story Its probably also the Spear of Destiny or some poo poo
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Jul 13, 2019 07:49
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Doubtful, because that's almost certainly one of the things Harry recovered from the vault in Skin Game.
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Jul 13, 2019 08:56
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Khizan posted:Doubtful, because that's almost certainly one of the things Harry recovered from the vault in Skin Game. That was the tip. We could be talking about the shaft. Not likely but possible.
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Jul 13, 2019 13:53
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Lemniscate Blue posted:That was the tip. We could be talking about the shaft. Not likely but possible. Not interested in hearing about your last tinder date.
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Jul 13, 2019 14:22
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Calling it now that Ebeneezer is going to die or get cripple/put on the verge of death, and Dresden's going to pick up the Blackstaff. There'll be like a moment where Eb's like "Boy, no, you don't know what you're-" And then we'll get something along the lines of shaking hands with a mountain for a paragraph or two. Harry might kill a mortal for the first time with magic but it won't actually hurt him because he'll be holding the staff or something, which will probably influence him towards murder, but he'll feel bad about it. Then he'll decide the staff is too dangerous to have in the mortal realm and give it back to Grandma Death. He won't be sure its a good thing, but that it is the right thing. Something something Winter's mantle. navyjack posted:Its probably also the Spear of Destiny or some poo poo Nah it's like the haft of Death's scythe and when he returns it to Murder Memaw she'll retrieve some rusted blade from some busted shelf in her cabin, and then Harry will reflect that he doesn't know whether it's rust, or blood. I like her so it'll be fun.
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Jul 13, 2019 14:38
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NerdyMcNerdNerd posted:The problem with this is that 1) Let's say Harry made a colossal mistake and gets the world ended, but survives himself. That's huge consequences for his own action. Am I to understand that this particular consequence would somehow not count because the bad thing reads as Harry-centric? It's a first-person perspective series about Harry. As for forgiveness, I assume that you noticed the series is fundamentally Christian? 2) Harry's good at training new Wardens because he can reflect on all the bad assumptions he made, the times he screwed up, the ways in which he tries to do the right thing too quickly and ends up making things worse. Harry almost never tries to deflect blame. And the series is fundamentally about free will: even devils can only influence people. The words that tipped Harry's despair over the edge did not FORCE him to do anything, no more than Uriel's words did. I listed a bunch of choices Harry's made and you haven't shown how they all were not his responsibility, but let's add a few more: A. Almost every decision related to the Red Court vampires was on Harry's shoulders. I listed bad consequences related to that. If you think Harry's all "it got lots of people killed but now I am a Warden and I killed all the vampires, so it was good on balance" I don't know what series you're reading. B. Harry repeatedly and unnecessarily endangered the Archive. Yes, the series is telling us that treating Ivy as a human being is the right choice, but even that is pretty reckless and it's unclear how stable Ivy is at this point. C. Unable to grant the possibility that someone else might be able to rescue his daughter without his direct participation, Harry decides to accept the Winter Knight mantle. Nobody forced him to do so. Being the Winter Knight is a consequence. Harry has had mixed success fighting the impulses of the mantle. The series does not say it's fine that he does terrible things because of the mantle; if anything, it shows us a Harry who is so caught up with using power that he isn't thinking about how he is using it. (I believe several examples of fae brutality have been mentioned recently in relation to killing via magic.) Harry's morality is clearly getting bent and warped, and he's only partly aware of it. The whole "free will" thing is a big deal in various Christian denominations. Butcher is very clearly in the "humanity has free will and is responsible for evil" camp. One whisper into his ear no more compelled Harry to do the wrong thing than Harry's mind compelled Lash to do the right thing. Redemption isn't redemption if it is compelled, at least in this series. Butcher's obviously influenced by Spenser's Faerie Queen and Dresden reminds me of nobody in that poem more than the Red Cross Knight.
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Jul 13, 2019 18:47
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Narsham posted:
And everyone who knows about Harry's relationship with Ivy treats it like a bomb waiting to go off. They can't really stop Harry from doing it, but no one else will do it and I'm betting there's been discussion about how to handle Ivy if Harry gets killed or is in some danger that the Archive knows about.
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Jul 14, 2019 00:54
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Narsham posted:Harry 1. I'll lead with the most glaring example: Luccio. Luccio is mind-controlled into a relationship against her will. Harry knows this, is told this, and... the following conversation with her is just loving  Now you can say this is a personality flaw of Harry's- and maybe it is, but I'm not going to look at Butcher's general treatment of women throughout his collective work and arrive at that conclusion. That aside- that's not the only time Harry takes something that happens to another character, and makes it about himself. He takes their trauma, and makes it his angst. This not only gets a little grating, but also takes from other characters some of their identity, their time in the spotlight. I want you to think about Murphy, and I want you to think about Leslie ( from Rivers ). I want you to think about how they were both traumatized, and then think upon the frequency and tone with which the Harry and Peter reflect on what happened. Compare and contrast. That's what I am driving at. 2. Harry doesn't deflect blame because Butcher does it for him. When he gives into his bloodlust and starts slamming that alien around at Splattercon instead of helping that girl ( who dies ), it isn't his fault, it's Lash's. When he does messed up things to those ghouls, it isn't his fault, it's Lash's. When he forces his apprentice to break the laws of magic and to help him commit suicide, it isn't his fault, the devil made him do it. When he's violent and tempermental and creepy, it isn't his fault, it's the mantle. It undermines the weight of his decisions and actions. Probably the best decision in the whole series is when he tricks Susan into going against a knife sure to shear through her armor, because there's no wiggle room. It was desperate, cunning, and absolutely a garbage thing to do- and he admitted, internally, that part of his motivation was that he was pissed at her. If it came out that someone whispered a secret in his ear and that made him do it- that isn't nearly as compelling or interesting or character defining. As for the rest, eh. A. The series has repeatedly said that the Red Court was gearing up to fight them anyways; Harry just made them jump the gun. B. This decision has no consequences for Harry; it has consequences for Ivy, and Harry feels bad about it. C. Nobody else could have rescued his daughter or seemed to show any real inclination to. Him trying to cheat Winter of his obligation all on his own without any influence would have been a lot more interesting than getting whispered some stuff and him being given a moral 'out' instead of just owning the lovely thing he did. Literally an angel says Hell bent the rules of the universe to tip the scales.
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Jul 14, 2019 05:53
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So it occurs to me, winter's mantle would actually be an excellent tool to explore the problems with Harry's character in the hands of another writer. Like, if I remember correctly harry's Mormon angel buddy sidled up and went 'Just FYI, the mantle doesn't make you evil'. What if after he got the mantle, Harry had used it to rationalize his nonsense? He regularly does pretty terrible things, so his actions wouldn't have to change all that much, just instead of going "Grr, arg, I am such a haunted hero, not being a scumbag is so hard," he spent a book or two openly embracing his inner scumbag and going "Whee, I love shooting vampires with a machine gun and cackling insanely while my literal murder boner pokes Murphy as she's trying to drive the freaking bike, this is so awesome"? After that, joseph smith or whoever showing up and going "...dude, the mantle barely does anything, it just kinda amplifies what's already there, also jesus freaking christ" would basically serve as a bucket of cold water on his (and the world's) tendency to justify and rationalize his increasingly worrying behavior. Omi no Kami fucked around with this message at 06:25 on Jul 14, 2019 |
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Jul 14, 2019 06:23
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Goddammit Starz, a man in sweats and a sex harness is not good Rook TV. I take back all of the good things I said about episode 1.
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Jul 14, 2019 08:24
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Ninurta posted:Goddammit Starz, a man in sweats and a sex harness is not good Rook TV. I take back all of the good things I said about episode 1. Ugh, I have no interest in watching it. I re-read Rook and Stiletto last week and they're still fantastic. Stiletto especially comes across much better the second time around, there's a lot less leering from the new POV characters than from Myfawnwy, and it's less dependent on throwaway jokes. The plotting and the prose is a lot more mature from the writer (Odette has a great arc), even if it's less funny and raw as a result. Apparently he's working on a 3rd book in between his day job. You'd think with the TV money he'd be able to do this full time, but whelp.
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Jul 14, 2019 20:53
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As low budget and lovely as the show looks, they couldn't have paid him much for the rights.Ninurta posted:Goddammit Starz, a man in sweats and a sex harness is not good Rook TV. I take back all of the good things I said about episode 1. I gave it a second chance after how much I hated episode one thinking I was just being contrary. Nope, show is complete trash. Grant Chester just stares at people really hard and Myfanwy electrocutes them. And everyone else shift around uncomfortably the whole time and has way too much sexual tension. Saltpowered fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Jul 14, 2019 |
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Jul 14, 2019 22:30
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLeIyy2ipps
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Jul 15, 2019 08:14
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