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Really? The main thing I'd say about the remake is that they sped everything up to the point where combat is completely brainless. Totally agree about things being more threatening in the original, there was a small stink made at launch about the first time you go into the witch's forest being harder because the Chobin Hoods could now attack diagonally but outside of that everything melts because of synergistic party AI and the actual turns coming faster and spell pausing not happening. Which just made it feel faster, to me.
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Jul 18, 2019 15:01
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Just from switching between the two movement and pretty much every animation in the original happens much faster with attacks having very little start up to them, and also things recover from being hit more quickly too. Also enemies are much greater threats because they actually attack pretty quickly and move around faster in comparison to the remake in which everything is pretty passive. I would say the most notable thing from going between the two is that the basic movement speed feels in the SNES version feels faster than the sprint in the remake. Though yeah, in late game combat having spells not stop everything helps make enemies go down quickly especially thanks to the hotkeys. Black Mage Knight fucked around with this message at 16:17 on Jul 18, 2019 |
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Jul 18, 2019 16:14
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I didn't know this thread existed! Trials of Mana is my favorite game of all time and having it officially available in English was a dream come true. I've played the game dozens of times with all sorts of different party comps, anyone looking for advice should let me know. Some people were talking about how the Night Market is necessary to do well in the game, and while it is a large boon I think it's less of a crutch and more of a fail-safe. If you end up with a completely terrible party, you still have Black Market items to lean on. You can try not using them and challenging yourself slightly more, but the game is easy enough that you shouldn't NEED to rely on them. It's there if you need it though. I'm also the one stan that exists for Sword of Mana. That game is good, fight me.
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Jul 19, 2019 22:41
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Alxprit posted:I'm also the one stan that exists for Sword of Mana. That game is good, fight me. In a vacuum yeah, but it's this weird FFA remake made out things that look like they're from Legend of Mana and ends up feeling worse than both. Also the need to elaborate more dialog out of an incredibly simple game boy game that just makes it wordy without being any more complex.
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Jul 19, 2019 22:50
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I was playing through SoM on the Mana collection and thought I had permanently missed a Sword orb, thankfully the game is merciful and helps you catch up. But I decided that I have played the original to death and am going to give the remake a try. It’s very cheap on Amazon right now but they only have a few copies left. The combat is so janky in the original, it’s very annoying. I heard a lot of criticism that they didn’t change much in the remaster but I hope the combat is at least less janky and imprecise. I also figure if I’m going to grind all the spells and get every rare drop I might as well get a trophy for it. Trials is one of my favorite games of all time. For my playthrough in Collection of Mana I went with the all female party which turned out to be really good later on in the game. Angela was my main because her end boss was the only one I hadn’t fought in a playthrough. My first run I was Hawk and my second I was Kevin. Charlotte’s dark classes are kinda cool, Black Curse or whatever it’s called was great for the bosses. I tried to grind out some Gear Seeds but I only got a few. Anyway I can’t wait until the remake comes out so that the Dex stat actually matters and critical hits are a thing!! What’s up with RPGs from that era having their core stats just not work at all sometimes. See also FFVI with evade/magic evade, FFVII with the def from armor, etc.
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Jul 21, 2019 01:54
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Blackbelt Bobman posted:The combat is so janky in the original, it’s very annoying. I heard a lot of criticism that they didn’t change much in the remaster but I hope the combat is at least less janky and imprecise. I also figure if I’m going to grind all the spells and get every rare drop I might as well get a trophy for it. It's one of those things where I really don't remember enemies being totally unhittable while they're recovering from a hit and somehow that ruins trying to play for me. The timings of attacks all feel "off", I dunno. I'm sure it was like that before, but I guess I didn't know any different when the game was new. Erpy posted:The Benevodon of Air is the only boss where you had to go through a dungeon you visisted before. Okay, you were in the Fire Dungeon before, but 80% of the place was locked off the last time you were there. All the other places are new. I don't really see them making a radical departure from the "visit dungeon, fight boss"-theme since that's literally what the whole sequence is about. (and it's not too different from the gathering of the last 4 spirits in the previous act either) It's just extremely repetitive. Give me some story, a little break up. I dunno.
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Jul 21, 2019 02:21
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Blackbelt Bobman posted:What’s up with RPGs from that era having their core stats just not work at all sometimes. See also FFVI with evade/magic evade, FFVII with the def from armor, etc. snes games were coded in assembly and not playtested to the same extent that modern games usually are. so a combination of it being really easy to introduce bugs by grabbing the wrong register, and the more subtle ones going unnoticed. the difficulty curve feels fine in sd3 and ff6 so the lack of critical hits or misses just didn't register for the playtesters, who didn't necessarily know that those mechanics were supposed to exist in the first place ff7 was in c++ but it was the second game square ever did with a real language instead of assembly so probably there were a bunch of adjustment issues. armor defense not working is conceptually a pretty simple bug that ultimately comes down to 'base defense and armor defense are probably added together somewhere, but the combat formula accidentally just uses the base defense value instead of the total defense value'. could be due to confusing naming ("what's this DEFT variable? looks like a typo of DEF so i better fix it") or any number of other things. also, still not a lot of in-depth playtesting in the psx era
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Jul 21, 2019 02:22
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Jazerus posted:snes games were coded in assembly and not playtested to the same extent that modern games usually are. so a combination of it being really easy to introduce bugs by grabbing the wrong register, and the more subtle ones going unnoticed. the difficulty curve feels fine in sd3 and ff6 so the lack of critical hits or misses just didn't register for the playtesters, who didn't necessarily know that those mechanics were supposed to exist in the first place They're a shitload more abstract than a bug that makes the game crash or a boss doing double damage and etc as well. Just think how many people were unsure if agility really was broken or not and that sort of thing. It's not easy to tell, or at least in the past it wasn't. And it's super easy to tell yourself "yea, it DOES feel faster now I've increased that!"
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Jul 21, 2019 02:29
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It's not even just that era (SNES). In FFI, the critical rate isn't right (it goes off the weapon ID, rather than the critical rate tied to the weapon), the Intelligence stat doesn't do jack, and several spells just outright don't work.
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Jul 21, 2019 02:34
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Taear posted:It's one of those things where I really don't remember enemies being totally unhittable while they're recovering from a hit and somehow that ruins trying to play for me. The timings of attacks all feel "off", I dunno. Everything in the original goes off of turns, basically, after you hit an enemy that wasn't being attacked, they immediately take damage, but they won't take damage again until their "turn" is up, so in that way you can have a party member attack after that and it will remember being attacked and display the damage after the next turn, but you can only stack one attack at time in that way, if you try to hit again that turn it'll just whiff. You can also miss and have stuff deflected but the original game has no miss indicator and only a small deflect animation/sound effect. Most common enemies will sit in a damage animation while you wait for the next damage turn and can basically be stunlocked, but bosses will take advantage of being damaged for counters or spells. The remake basically makes the turns come faster so stuff can be hit faster, but you still have to wait.
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Jul 21, 2019 04:20
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Yeah it’s very frustrating when there’s no indication if you’ve “missed” and there’s little indication if the enemy has blocked your attack so it ends up feeling like you hit their sprite in the wrong section or something dumb like that. I mean the first quarter of Trials is just a series of missed attacks because of the Dex glitch but at least I know that it’s happening!
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Jul 21, 2019 04:26
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Blackbelt Bobman posted:Anyway I can’t wait until the remake comes out so that the Dex stat actually matters and critical hits are a thing!! They appear to have actually axed the Dexterity stat entirely in the remake. In the character selection screen, the visible stats are Attack, Defense, Magic Attack, Magic Defense and Luck. It's obvious they're not trying to replicate all the old systems 1:1 but are setting up a new system to work with the new playing style.
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Jul 21, 2019 09:53
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Erpy posted:They appear to have actually axed the Dexterity stat entirely in the remake. In the character selection screen, the visible stats are Attack, Defense, Magic Attack, Magic Defense and Luck. It's obvious they're not trying to replicate all the old systems 1:1 but are setting up a new system to work with the new playing style. I’m not sure how I feel about that. Hawk’s whole shtick is based on the Dex stat and that’s what makes him unique. Of course Duran’s whole thing was shields and we all know how well that worked  at least that will presumably be fixed.
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Jul 21, 2019 16:54
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Erpy posted:They appear to have actually axed the Dexterity stat entirely in the remake. In the character selection screen, the visible stats are Attack, Defense, Magic Attack, Magic Defense and Luck. It's obvious they're not trying to replicate all the old systems 1:1 but are setting up a new system to work with the new playing style. Yeah. I believe you can dodge on command now which is why Dexterity is axed (well, and that you either hit with your attacks because the enemy is in range/in the AoE or you don't because they're not). Blackbelt Bobman posted:I’m not sure how I feel about that. Hawk’s whole shtick is based on the Dex stat and that’s what makes him unique. Most likely, Hawk's trap and Nightblade spells will go off of Attack. (And if I remember correctly, it was Luck which was supposed to increase your ability to crit but that was bugged as well.) EDIT: Oh, and about Duran, he's likely gonna get boosts to Defense with the shields now instead of Evade. Folt The Bolt fucked around with this message at 16:58 on Jul 21, 2019 |
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Jul 21, 2019 16:56
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If you have any interest into a deep dive of the translations of games from this series then Tomato of Mother 3 translation fame has started his video series for Final Fantasy Adventure where he follows along for every piece of dialog to see what was changed or cut, with scans taken from manuals and japanese guides to provide information that's missing in game and hard to come by. Apparently the keys in that game are weird alchemically fused snakes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4XBYW9khCE He says in the video that he eventually wants to do Secret and Trials and in fact wanted to do Trials first but due to technical hurdles with that he's starting with FFA.
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Jul 21, 2019 19:58
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Clyde/Tomato is good people and I highly recommend his streams. There's tons of archives on his Youtube channel of the same handle of past stream comparisons like Breath of Fire 2 and stuff. You might even spy me in the chat offering advice and insight. It's a shame he doesn't stream that much anymore but the new FFA series should hopefully breathe new life into it all.
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Jul 22, 2019 01:34
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For the trophies for getting all the armor pieces in SoM remaster, do you have to keep them in your inventory? Or do you just have to have had them at some point? Like obviously you start with overalls but do you need to keep them until the end of the game? I assume not but who knows Edit: also all weapons at lv 9 doesn’t include the sword I assume?
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Jul 23, 2019 00:35
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You just need to own them once for it to count, make sure to look up the equipment that is only available via drops in areas you can't go back to, I know there's a bunch of stuff at the Pure Lands and maybe one or two in areas somewhat before that. Level 9 sword counts, if you have everything else at level 9 going into the final battle and the sword at 8, the trophy will pop when you cast both mana magics on Randi and the sword's model actually changes (and of course goes back when the magic wears off).
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Jul 23, 2019 01:30
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Okay cool that makes sense. I have a checklist which notes missable items so I’m good there. I just hope that the overalls you start with count since you can’t buy them again after you get kicked out of Potos. Also why are there only two save files?!?
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Jul 23, 2019 01:35
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Blackbelt Bobman posted:I just hope that the overalls you start with count since you can’t buy them again after you get kicked out of Potos. pretty sure that's fine because i didn't buy them there, either.
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Jul 23, 2019 01:59
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Blackbelt Bobman posted:Okay cool that makes sense. I have a checklist which notes missable items so I’m good there. It's true to the original  (...I think. Maybe I'm thinking of another game.)
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Jul 23, 2019 04:29
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Alxprit posted:It's true to the original The original is actually notable for having four save files at a time when most games had three. The mobile version had just two plus an autosave.
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Jul 23, 2019 06:43
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Apropos of nothing other than this being the thread for it, Secret of Mana is probably my favorite game of all time through a mix of it being the only JRPG where I actually liked the combat, the story being sparse and melancholy (because of them having to save memory and time on the translation lol~), and a big fat dose of nostalgia. I tried several times to get into SD3, but somehow the combat feels so stilted and dumb in comparison. Always wished they'd do a sequel that didn't try to reinvent systems just for the sake of it, because every game since has been kind of bad and eventually I stopped paying attention to new releases in the series.
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Jul 23, 2019 14:21
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Brosnan posted:Apropos of nothing other than this being the thread for it, Secret of Mana is probably my favorite game of all time through a mix of it being the only JRPG where I actually liked the combat, the story being sparse and melancholy (because of them having to save memory and time on the translation lol~), and a big fat dose of nostalgia. You know, before I played this re-release I'd have said the same thing but the combat feels really loving poo poo in SoM to me now. I've played it relatively recently on an emulator (maybe 8 or so years ago) and it didn't feel as clunky and horrible then. That cooldown before you can hit them again is just really annoying.
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Jul 23, 2019 18:12
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I don't mind the cooldown (honestly it keeps combat more interesting/balanced) but the spells system is kind of busted. If you commit to using them fairly the game's fine etc and it could be easily fixed by just giving the casters cooldowns.
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Jul 23, 2019 18:15
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No Wave posted:I don't mind the cooldown (honestly it keeps combat more interesting/balanced) but the spells system is kind of busted. If you commit to using them fairly the game's fine etc and it could be easily fixed by just giving the casters cooldowns. Well casting spells also requires fuckloads of faffing in menus. Which again - fine when I originally played in 1993 but is such a pain now.
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Jul 23, 2019 18:22
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yeah that too. That's usually what pushed me to play fair. I don't have an easy suggestion to fix that.
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Jul 23, 2019 18:49
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Get rid of spell levels and make them all useful at all times, introduce some kind of cooldown on spells depending on type that keeps you from spamming them, make a custom ring that the ring menu opens to first that you can place shortcuts to, I dunno. The real answer is probably to have a completely different combat system but I think if you wanted to keep it those three things would go a long way to making the menu-ing less invasive. Shortcuts too, obviously, but I feel like the remake didn't give you enough of them. I basically just had the cure spell and one offensive spell equipped that would be useful just because I mostly only used them so they were leveled up.
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Jul 23, 2019 20:08
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At least Trials doesn't have faffing about with weapon and magic levels. You still have to grind sometimes, but it's the old fashioned kind, which I definitely prefer. ...well, there's the seeds, but anyone playing it now is on emulator or on Switch, which have save states for easy rerolling of chests to make sure you get seeds.
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Jul 23, 2019 21:08
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I resolved to play ToM without savescumming or savestates for my first run on the Switch and I learned of an interesting bug I didn't know about: After you class change the second time, if you keep opening ??? seeds you'll start to get tokens for all your classes instead of the two your characters qualify for. This is a problem if you class change one character the moment you get the token you wanted but not for the other two.
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Jul 23, 2019 21:23
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SettingSun posted:I resolved to play ToM without savescumming or savestates for my first run on the Switch and I learned of an interesting bug I didn't know about : After you class change the second time, if you keep opening ??? seeds you'll start to get tokens for all your classes instead of the two your characters qualify for. This is a problem if you class change one character the moment you get the token you wanted but not for the other two. Specifically, this has a chance of happening if you promote to a Light -> Dark or Dark -> Light final class. It never happens on Light -> Light or Dark -> Dark final classes.
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Jul 23, 2019 22:01
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Trials definitely does magic better than Secret. The fact that your magic selection varies based on your party and class selections helps make every playthrough feel fresh. Spells have charging times with the strong ones having both long charge times and huge mp requirements. I wish there were shortcuts but that will probably be in the remake. And then of course there are the spell items which are instantaneous. Poto oil is pretty great stuff.SettingSun posted:I resolved to play ToM without savescumming or savestates for my first run on the Switch and I learned of an interesting bug I didn't know about : After you class change the second time, if you keep opening ??? seeds you'll start to get tokens for all your classes instead of the two your characters qualify for. This is a problem if you class change one character the moment you get the token you wanted but not for the other two. Oh man I’m glad I got lucky on my run, then. I probably won’t play Trials again until the remake... but then again... it’s really great idk. And I am traveling next month...
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Jul 24, 2019 02:03
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Is the game going to teach me how to assign spell shortcuts?? (SoM Remaster)
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Jul 27, 2019 02:31
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I think you just push the shoulder button you want it assigned to when you have it highlighted in the menu? It's definitely not something it has to tell you about before you can use it.
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Jul 27, 2019 03:32
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So where's a good spot to farm equipment and class change seeds and also grind a few levels? I got my party of Hawk(main), Riesz, and Duran about to hit up the last god beast but I am way under leveled for it and those ninja jerks love to use a skill that'll usually kill my entire party if their HP isn't 3/4 full.
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Jul 27, 2019 11:33
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Phantasium posted:I think you just push the shoulder button you want it assigned to when you have it highlighted in the menu? It's definitely not something it has to tell you about before you can use it. Nothing happened when I did that. Edit: apparently you can’t assign any shortcuts you’re playing co-op which makes zero loving sense but ok Blackbelt Bobman fucked around with this message at 13:51 on Jul 27, 2019 |
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Jul 27, 2019 13:49
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Vord posted:So where's a good spot to farm equipment and class change seeds and also grind a few levels? So I assume you've reached Pedda and got yourself the latest armor? Unfortunately yes, Dark Assassins (Nightblades) are sincere assholes who love using Split Slash either if you piss them off or sometimes just when you enter the screen. Nothing you can do against that in the latter case. Otherwise, you can try to debuff their strength with either Hawkeye or Riesz so their class strike hurts less. The first spot where you could get ??? and Gear seeds in Hawkeye's route was all the way back in the throne room of Nevarl Fortress where you exchanged the sword of Mana for Fairy, before you started hunting Benevodons. Returning to that room allows you to fight two Wormwoods (the Dark Force casting lesser demons) who either drop a Shade icon (common), a ??? Seed (rare) or a Gear Seed (über rare) upon defeat. Those Wormwoods should be weak enough for your party to curb stomp by the dozen by now. Otherwise, you can also reliably farm ??? Seeds in the jungle screens outside Pedda. At night, you frequently run into Beholder enemies (the purple one-eyed spheres that cast Luna magic at you) whose drops (if a treasure chest pops up) is a guaranteed ??? Seed. For Gear seeds, certain powerful enemies like the Dark Assassins and Wolfiends in the Night Cavern (and Demons and Black Knights too) are pretty much guaranteed to leave a Gear Seed if a treasure chest spawns. I suggest switching to your final class before grinding in the Night Cavern because all of those enemies have powerful class strikes or character attacks that target and either OHKO or heavily injure your entire party.
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Jul 27, 2019 15:46
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Pa Potos also drop ??? Seeds and they spawn from Ma Potos. You can do that pretty early on. I got all my characters to their final jobs after like two or three Benevodons
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Jul 27, 2019 16:43
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Blackbelt Bobman posted:Pa Potos also drop ??? Seeds and they spawn from Ma Potos. You can do that pretty early on. I got all my characters to their final jobs after like two or three Benevodons Yeah, I always stop off to get some whenever I go to knock off Lightgazer.
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Jul 27, 2019 17:16
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Yeah, but I always found the Poto method to be the most tedious one since you first have to wait for the PotoPoppies to spawn, potentially eating Lucent Beams in the meantime and when you slay them and they drop something, the loot is usually just medical herbs or claws. Compared to the Beholder enemies, whose drop is always a ??? seed and who start popping up right about the time you're around level 38, the Poto method always felt too much of a pain to bother with. Also, they have to be a certain level in order to have a chance to drop the seeds. If you visit Lightgazer's place too early, you won't be able to get the seeds at all.
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Jul 27, 2019 17:31
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