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The easy way to make a vacuumed room in 3 steps: 1: Fill the the area you want the room to be in entirely with solid blocks 2: Build a liquid airlock entrance leading to the solid block room 3: Excavate the the interior of the room
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Jul 20, 2019 07:28
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Or use a gas pump and pump all the gas out of the area you dug. That's what I do because everything else feels like cheating.
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Jul 20, 2019 08:39
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If you think that way, then the liquid air lock itself is cheaty.
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Jul 20, 2019 09:25
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I wish the game emulated Dorf Fortress liquid mechanics and gases/liquids could move diagonally.
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Jul 20, 2019 09:35
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Funso Banjo posted:If you think that way, then the liquid air lock itself is cheaty. Yes, that's correct.
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Jul 20, 2019 10:13
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Captain Monkey posted:Yes, that's correct. Honestly, I tend to agree.
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Jul 20, 2019 10:44
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The way I look at it is there is enough tedium and such required in regular tasks that using little QoL tricks that might be gamey is completely overlookable. The day you decide you want to move something a small amount and realize it is literally easier to start a new game on that map than pump all the working fluids you have around it kind of lightens the cheaty burden, at least for me. It’s all in the eye of the beholder though, like I didn’t really give a poo poo about machine heat deletion because it was pretty easy to avoid using it as a real exploit and more just another game mechanic if used in moderation. Past a certain point you kind of master all the survival game mechanics and it just becomes a creativity base builder anyway. A very, very good one none the less. Mazz fucked around with this message at 13:37 on Jul 20, 2019 |
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Jul 20, 2019 13:29
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Does less air conduct heat worse? If I don't have a pure vacuum but I do have a room that's about 1g per meter is that a better insulator than a room chock full of CO2?
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Jul 20, 2019 14:03
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Uh. It conducts the same but less mass means faster temperature change to average ambient. The full of CO2 room would be a better temperature sink than a room with an average 1g. Vacuum prevents temperature transfer altogether.
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Jul 20, 2019 14:18
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What ways are there to manage heat in Verdante right now? I'm looking at my future and it seems like it has a lot of heat in it, since if I remember correctly this asteroid type doesn't have any wheezeworts. 1. I think there are still anti-entropy thermo-nullifiers... somewhere. 2. Ice maker (very labor intensive). 3. Specific heat games with certain transformations. For example, heating up water and using it in an electrolyzer, since H and O2 don't store nearly as much heat as H2O does. I think I'd need aquatuners to do anything useful with this, so I'd want a fairly developed power industry. 4. Venting hot stuff into space! I'm not sure what liquid would be best to use here. I could use polluted water I guess, but I don't think I'm likely to have that much of it. Maybe crude oil? 5. Steam turbines! I don't see how turbines can be used for practical heat management though; I'm not likely to have things lying around anywhere near 130 °C. How have other folks dealt with heat here? I actually don't think it's going to be an issue for a long while, but I'm still curious how others have dealt with it. e: Verdante not Arboria, oops. The one with swamp but without ice. nrook fucked around with this message at 15:26 on Jul 20, 2019 |
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Jul 20, 2019 15:15
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nrook posted:What ways are there to manage heat in Arboria right now? I'm looking at my future and it seems like it has a lot of heat in it, since if I remember correctly this asteroid type doesn't have any wheezeworts. Not a fast solution but you can use multiple aquatuners to cool a radiator fluid and use the heat dumped from the aquatuner to create the turbine steam. It’s honestly more what steam turbines are for than anything else. It’s tricky to get right without experimenting/practice though. Mazz fucked around with this message at 15:30 on Jul 20, 2019 |
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Jul 20, 2019 15:20
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enraged_camel posted:i mean if you're gonna exploit game mechanics to create vacuum, why not just enable sandbox mode and do it that way? it's a lot less work. Because exploiting game mechanics is fun? See also the reliance on sieves always outputting water at 40 IIRC.
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Jul 20, 2019 16:39
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Because exploiting game mechanics is fun? See also the reliance on sieves always outputting water at 40 IIRC. Yeah, and how did that turn out?
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Jul 20, 2019 17:28
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enraged_camel posted:Yeah, and how did that turn out? People had a lot of fun, then it stopped working, and they had the fun of finding another solution. I mean, the waterlock hack is bullshit, too. Surface tension doesn't work that way. And contrariwise paired airlocks *do* work that way.
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Jul 20, 2019 19:15
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Captain Monkey posted:Or use a gas pump and pump all the gas out of the area you dug. That's what I do because everything else feels like cheating.
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Jul 20, 2019 19:55
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Arsenic Lupin posted:People had a lot of fun, then it stopped working, and they had the fun of finding another solution. I mean, the waterlock hack is bullshit, too. Surface tension doesn't work that way. And contrariwise paired airlocks *do* work that way. I have been watching a lot of streams with ONI and the water physics are so bizarre to me. Why doesn't water, well, flow? Seeing 2 tiles of water standing straight up weirds me out.
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Jul 20, 2019 21:09
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Partly the slow nature of fluid moving from one block to another breaks how you would think water would operate in reality for large bodies of water. For water airlocks it's a byproduct of the tile system. The upper tile has a miniscule amount of water in it but that entire tile is registered as "water" while the tile below it is "full".
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Jul 20, 2019 22:53
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Yeah the water mechanics are entirely tied to the tile system; when any amount of fluid is in a tile it has to occupy the entire tile, and in the case of liquid it gets this enormous surface tension aspect while doing so. The key is that two fluids cannot share a tile, and probably for a legit reason on the dev side where the simulation just implodes on itself or became too difficult to debug or something. But with that said, it does mean that fluid dynamics are a bit unique and not terribly realistic. This oddness is the reason the water-over-vent trick works the way it does, and is another example of a "cheaty" mechanic that mostly just works as a QoL thing you can avoid if you want. They may come back around on those systems in the future, who knows. At the same time, it's really just another element of the gameplay engine when looked at uncritically; the game doesn't imply that it's some super realistic simulation or anything. Mazz fucked around with this message at 23:20 on Jul 20, 2019 |
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Jul 20, 2019 23:13
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I keep getting these crashes in ONI about kernel faults and such, full on crashes where I need to reboot the computer. Pretty sure I just get them playing ONI, and not other games. That's my story, tyvm. As a whole I am enjoying the asteroids, but i like Rime most of all. Of all the mechanics one needs to track, heat management is probably the least fun - so building bases where (at least initially!) anything that makes heat is an asset is refreshing! I noticed that deleting a biome feature (such as "geoactive", "metal rich") fucks up seeds sightly - you may well get an ALMOST perfect copy, but it may be missing a few things. I can live with that, gently caress boulders
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Jul 20, 2019 23:17
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Yeah the seed system is gonna need a bigger overhaul now since the seed provided at game start and in the esc menu are completely different. That and some kind of fine tuning would be nice; they got rid of the rolling for dupe traits only to add it back in for asteroids. I can't get super into this release build yet because of little things like that; they added a lot and it feels like it'll need some adjusting still to feel completely coherent. Mazz fucked around with this message at 23:30 on Jul 20, 2019 |
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Jul 20, 2019 23:27
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Arsenic Lupin posted:People had a lot of fun, then it stopped working, and they had the fun of finding another solution. I mean, the waterlock hack is bullshit, too. Surface tension doesn't work that way. And contrariwise paired airlocks *do* work that way. What is hacky about a water lock? It is a pool of water separating two areas. It makes sense intuitively and works in game.
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Jul 21, 2019 01:50
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Sillybones posted:What is hacky about a water lock? It is a pool of water separating two areas. It makes sense intuitively and works in game. What is hacky about it is that pure surface tension holds a brick of water half a dupe's height in place above the pool.
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Jul 21, 2019 02:11
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WithoutTheFezOn posted:I’d be a lot cooler with that if the gas pumps had an input port. The fact that they don’t still messes with me. I don't understand the reason for this. It pulls in gas from around it already.
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Jul 21, 2019 03:08
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I'm not sure how/why, but I appear to have generated a map with 0 salt block spawns...not even in the ocean biome. Was planning to use the rust deoxidizer, but this is going to make it tricky.
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Jul 21, 2019 03:19
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Mazz posted:This oddness is the reason the water-over-vent trick works the way it does, So I tried to use this on that seed you shared a couple days ago and it didn't work; at least one but sometimes as many as 4-5 'packets' of gas would pass through fine but then the fluid puddle would blink out. I tried leaving fluid on the vent tile and the two adjacent tiles and that worked for longer, and had a tendency to re-establish itself possibly due to flow-over from the other fluid tiles. As I think of it now though I don't recall having more than 3-500g of fluid per tile. Is that the problem or did they potentially stealth fix the infinite gas pressure trick? Regardless, I just tore that tank out and went with my old 'extremely huge closed room around the vent' to hold natty g instead of 'visually interesting room in structural dead space which is violently orange due to 25kg/tile pressure.'
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Jul 21, 2019 03:51
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Arsenic Lupin posted:What is hacky about it is that pure surface tension holds a brick of water half a dupe's height in place above the pool. Water lock != Oxygen Not Included magic water wall. He's talking about a pool of water separating two hallways, example:  Also, just tell yourself that this isn't our reality and that in the universe of Oxygen not Included liquids all have very high surface tension and are very viscous, there are several devices that straight up eliminate energy from existence and eating a compressed dirt bar for sustenance is normal and survivable. Also combustion generators don't require oxygen (but do create CO2). MagicBoots fucked around with this message at 04:05 on Jul 21, 2019 |
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Jul 21, 2019 03:52
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I'd be ok with using whatever that space fluid is that stacks instead of magic water as that seems to be the in-universe techno babble solution. It just comes so late in the game cycle that it's essentially useless as a solution for the problem it's trying to solve and they seem to be allergic to just making out and out airlock buildings a thing, so whatever, magic water walls forever.
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Jul 21, 2019 04:14
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LonsomeSon posted:So I tried to use this on that seed you shared a couple days ago and it didn't work; at least one but sometimes as many as 4-5 'packets' of gas would pass through fine but then the fluid puddle would blink out. I tried leaving fluid on the vent tile and the two adjacent tiles and that worked for longer, and had a tendency to re-establish itself possibly due to flow-over from the other fluid tiles. You need to have enough water to keep refilling, yeah. It will displace the water to the other tiles so you need enough total that it will always fill back up via gravity or whatever system liquids use. You want to have like 700-1000g of water per tile or something IIRC. Basically you just need to be under 2kg so that you don't overpressure the vent (this is the basis of the trick, the vent doesn't see overpressure because there isn't 2kg of "fluid" there), but you want to put enough there to stop that displacement from mattering. My go to method is using a storage container set to carry like 1-4kg of ice. This will give you exact measurements and that little ice should melt fast (outside of rime). otherwise the bottle emptier works fine but its 3 tall and if you have any bottles around it can be annoying to measure out correctly and not overfill. You have to watch the storage though, once the ice melts it will call for a new delivery if you have the priority high (as you should). disable the storage once you have the water there, then deconstruct. Mazz fucked around with this message at 04:22 on Jul 21, 2019 |
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Jul 21, 2019 04:20
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Arsenic Lupin posted:People had a lot of fun, then it stopped working, and they had the fun of finding another solution No, not really. It stopped working, then entire bases broke and had to be abandoned, and people had to learn to use the proper methods. I mean, dude, you're welcome to do whatever the hell you want in your own games to maximize your own "fun". But when a new player asks "how do I do X?" your answer shouldn't be "here's how you can exploit mechanics Y and Z to do that" because that's just lovely.
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Jul 21, 2019 06:22
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enraged_camel posted:No, not really. It stopped working, then entire bases broke and had to be abandoned, and people had to learn to use the proper methods. If anyone opts in to the very much work in progress launch upgrade beta and that breaks an existing base I can't assign much blame to Klei so much as the person who opts into a beta. The real problem with the launch upgrade is ever other patch seems to have a significant game breaking bug in it, I doubt that the water sieve change is of concern compared to these. The water sieve change was at least in part to be more new player friendly, as they would build a water sieve for use in their bases and raise the ambient temperature towards 40C not knowing what caused it.
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Jul 21, 2019 06:49
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I agree. Those who use mechanics I believe are unrealistic have fallen into sin, and while I take no pleasure in it, I am well aware that they will be smote by God someday.
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Jul 21, 2019 13:22
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enraged_camel posted:No, not really. It stopped working, then entire bases broke and had to be abandoned, and people had to learn to use the proper methods. Give it a loving rest, dude, we don't want to hear about your religion. The "exploity way" is how most of the player base actually plays the game. They couldn't tell a new player much about your "proper methods" because they've never actually used them. However, we all recognize that it's a game in development and that we may have to significantly change our gameplay along the way; some players may choose to retrofit their bases, some may choose to start over, you chose to go at it like a doomsday prepper and then try to poo poo all over anyone else who didn't. It's a game. If you have a different way of doing things, feel free to answer when a new person asks a question. Until very recently, you couldn't even avoid exploiting heat deletion/creation on matter-exchanging devices (ie sieve, hydrolyzer, diffuser), so much so that it generally caused problems with temperature regulation in your base much earlier than it normally would have, forcing you to beeline for certain portions of the research tree and use scarce resources and construction time that could have gone to other projects. Hello Sailor fucked around with this message at 15:54 on Jul 21, 2019 |
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Jul 21, 2019 15:52
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Captain Monkey posted:I don't understand the reason for this. It pulls in gas from around it already. In game terms, it’s kind of a pain to tear down the pump/wiring/ducting/etc. and then rebuild it all a short distance away if you want/need to. In reality terms, pretty much every gas handling system has the machinery located in a place different than that being conditioned. Just a weird sore spot for me, possibly because I spent many years working with HVAC systems and vacuum chambers.
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Jul 21, 2019 16:04
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WithoutTheFezOn posted:I think the gas pumps should be able to have “remote input”. No I agree, there’s lots of places where an input port would help QoL dramatically. Having to relocate pumps and lines every time you want to clear a certain space is tedious and dumb. Especially when you need to include a filter each time. Maybe something later in the research tree like a centralized pump section, instead of the regular pump even. Mazz fucked around with this message at 16:20 on Jul 21, 2019 |
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Jul 21, 2019 16:16
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Captain Monkey posted:I don't understand the reason for this. It pulls in gas from around it already. in vent =>=>=> pump =>=>=> out vent so you can have your methane pump outside your sealed methane room so you don't have to send a dupe into the fart chamber every time it breaks down. I'm guessing the reason it's not like this is because the gas and water mechanics run on a push system rather than a pull system. You could make an "intake vent" with a push mechanic that only kicks in if they're connected to the input side of a running pump, but I could see that behaviour getting real messy real quick (what if you've got two pumps in the one circuit? Does it pull twice as fast?) A compromise could be a pump with one "pipe" attached to it which is attached to an "intake vent" that's actually all one unit, which you can build a wall etc. over the "pipe" part, and some flavour text saying that the pump cant pull more than one square because uh air pressure or something shut up.
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Jul 21, 2019 17:18
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Mazz posted:No I agree, there’s lots of places where an input port would help QoL dramatically. Having to relocate pumps and lines every time you want to clear a certain space is tedious and dumb. Especially when you need to include a filter each time. I've taken to centralizing my filtration systems using the pipe element filters and shut-off valves system. For extra complication/compactness, I build the gas filter and liquid filter in the same space, with the outputs going in opposite directions.
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Jul 21, 2019 17:21
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Hello Sailor posted:I've taken to centralizing my filtration systems using the pipe element filters and shut-off valves system. For extra complication/compactness, I build the gas filter and liquid filter in the same space, with the outputs going in opposite directions. I do that too but my example is more like when you’re just pulling a small amount of fluid from a space, like if chlorine got into your farm somehow. Having to clear out space for a pump and probably a filter nearby to actually sort the chlorine sucks compared to just dropping in an input vent and running line to an existing, dedicated vacuum pump thing. Basically there’s no reason the pump needs to be always local on the input end. Splicer is right in that it’s probably just a current code thing but all that requires is a new pump building that uses the vent as a source vs destination. All the code for something like that is already there, just needs to be reconfigured for new pump/vent objects. Hell, I might even be able to mod it, I’ll consider looking when I have time. Mazz fucked around with this message at 17:35 on Jul 21, 2019 |
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Jul 21, 2019 17:31
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As it works now, once you get liquid or gas into pipes it will flow infinitely in any direction without any additional power or suction or anything; this is a pretty major abstraction, but it also keeps things nice and simple. If you wanted your input and pump in different places you'd have to have a completely new game mechanic where each circuit of pipes/vents required some suction value provided by attached pumps, it'd all get really complicated really fast. I'd be fine with leaving it how it is now if we instead got the ability to "mop" small amounts of gas, the dupes can pull out vacuums and suck it into bottles. You can make it require research and be a labor intensive process, but having the ability to spot-clean errant gas packets without building a bunch of bulky machines would be really nice.
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Jul 21, 2019 17:52
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Fenn the Fool! posted:As it works now, once you get liquid or gas into pipes it will flow infinitely in any direction without any additional power or suction or anything; this is a pretty major abstraction, but it also keeps things nice and simple. If you wanted your input and pump in different places you'd have to have a completely new game mechanic where each circuit of pipes/vents required some suction value provided by attached pumps, it'd all get really complicated really fast. Eh, you could leave the design mostly as is if you just made a pump with both input and output, and a gas intake tile to connect it to. Gas goes from intake to pump, then out of pump, all using existing flow mechanics.
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Jul 21, 2019 18:03
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Literally Kermit posted:I keep getting these crashes in ONI about kernel faults and such, full on crashes where I need to reboot the computer. Pretty sure I just get them playing ONI, and not other games. That's my story, tyvm. That is not Oxygen Not Included. It literally cannot be Oxygen Not Included, because Oxygen Not Included does not run on any operating systems that are susceptible to regular software crashing the operating system like that. Either your OS install or drivers are shot, or far more likely, you have a broken computer.
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Jul 21, 2019 18:05
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