(Thread IKs:
fart simpson)
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i'm a little surprised there's not discussion in here about the Situation in Hong Kong at the moment the cops apparently dispersed a demonstration a bit more violently than usual and it was followed up by masked non-cop dudes beating on protesters
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Jul 21, 2019 23:26
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| # ? May 27, 2024 20:18 |
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You have to give a little time for the twitter feeds to coalesce into proper narratives
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Jul 22, 2019 01:31
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the gently caress do i care?
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Jul 22, 2019 01:49
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https://twitter.com/CarlZha/status/1153093531650539520
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Jul 22, 2019 01:56
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https://twitter.com/CarlZha/status/1153103196958576640
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Jul 22, 2019 02:15
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GreyjoyBastard posted:i'm a little surprised there's not discussion in here about the Situation in Hong Kong at the moment Hundreds of whiteshirts beating up protesters as the cops are conveniently absent doesn't really lend a sympathetic light onto the narrative that the protesters are counterrevolutionaries funded by the CIA
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Jul 22, 2019 02:15
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Carl back from his sex vacation to mouthpiece for a fascist government
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Jul 22, 2019 02:16
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https://twitter.com/CarlZha/status/1153110388004642816 https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1028271447632957441
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Jul 22, 2019 02:18
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I live in Yuen Long and those are clearly hired goons from the local villages, the wild west of Hong Kong. There's a video of them indiscriminately beating on commuters inside a train carriage and as they're trying to escape up the escalator. It's pretty loving desperate.
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Jul 22, 2019 03:16
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Rabelais D posted:I live in Yuen Long and those are clearly hired goons from the local villages, the wild west of Hong Kong. There's a video of them indiscriminately beating on commuters inside a train carriage and as they're trying to escape up the escalator. It's pretty loving desperate. holy smokes you are alive! where did you go and is everything ok? you just disapppeared one day
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Jul 22, 2019 05:47
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caberham posted:holy smokes you are alive! where did you go and is everything ok? you just disapppeared one day Yeah man, things have been a bit busy: PhD, new job, new baby....but still here
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Jul 22, 2019 06:01
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is this gonna turn out kinda like syria where people come out really heavily in support of the protests and then it turns out that actually there's a pretty dark undercurrent of sectarian bigotry driving the uprising but by that point nobody wants to admit they were had? basically i don't wanna get fooled again
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Jul 22, 2019 06:53
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I don't understand how it's supposed to be dishonest to both criticize people supporting the protests, especially foreigners on the internet, as well as condemn this sort of semi-fascist violence against the protesters. I know I made an rear end out of myself earlier on this topic by making a statement that frankly couldn't be read as anything but a condemnation of the protesters and an endorsement of the Chinese state, but while the post as a whole was dumb and bad, the point I wish I had properly made is relevant here. Hong Kong is not a viable state on its own: as things stand, in the long term it will only exist as either a protectorate of western powers or as a part of China. The one country two systems promise was a pretty transparent lie from the Chinese, what it really always was is a temporary policy to ease a transition. And defending the Hong Kong protesters represents this massive trap of falling into straight-up western chauvinism because it should be obvious to anyone that to truly defend those people from being slowly engulfed into the mainland Chinese system, serious threats against China from western imperialists would be necessary. For nothing other than preventing part of British colonial legacy from becoming what it would have been without the attempted colonization of China. But on the other hand, that consideration is only relevant to us here, demanding the people of Hong Kong to give a poo poo about that would just be an "anti-imperialist" form of enlightened western paternalism. Even if the leaders of the protests may be compromised because they must realize that their long-term goals are straight-up impossible to achieve without selling out to western powers, they have the right to struggle for what they see as the best option in a lovely position, and obviously the masses of people protesting have nothing to do with international intrigues. So Hong Kong authorities sending out goons to crack skulls is a heinous action that shows they don't give a drat about their ostensible people. Once they realized that the protests wouldn't die down just by giving in to their minimum demands, they decided not to take any risks to keep them from unnecessary harm, and cheering for something like that would be morally bankrupt as well. So it is not some bankrupt "both sides" caricature, it's "don't get duped into supporting intervention in Hong Kong by demanding persistent legal separation of Hong Kong from China because of another set of sympathetic protesters that seemingly represent our values against oriental authoritarianism, but also don't invent excuses to consider blatant state terror against honestly struggling people fine". For someone in our position they must be taken together, because either one taken alone leads to carrying water for powerful countries that neither need nor deserve your help because they fundamentally aren't interested in having a free people.
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Jul 22, 2019 06:56
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gh0stpinballa posted:is this gonna turn out kinda like syria where people come out really heavily in support of the protests and then it turns out that actually there's a pretty dark undercurrent of sectarian bigotry driving the uprising but by that point nobody wants to admit they were had? Everywhere is different, mainlanders are being scape goated and misdirected because of the failings of the political system. I'm worried about nativism too, after the umbrella movement, some people went off on the nativist deep end and started worshiping donald trump. Thankfully those guys aren't really around this time. 中港矛盾 is the term, it could easily be rectified. They all stem from mismanagement of macro policies: Baby formula is a food security problem Parallel imports of everyday goods like soap and shampoos because quality issues Not having universal suffrage is the biggest one. This poo poo has been stewing over 20 years. I wouldn't be out on the streets if we removed functional constituencies and had universal suffrage. If we had universal suffrage and all the pro beijing establishment won, then fine so be loving it. Just allow a system where governments can change hands. And from there we can work on voter reform like implementing Single Transferable Voting like we do in district councils. The pro beijings need their space and representation in HK, and they were the ones who wanted STV because they were worried about not having any representation after 1997.
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Jul 22, 2019 07:13
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uncop posted:Hong Kong is not a viable state on its own: as things stand, in the long term it will only exist as either a protectorate of western powers or as a part of China. The one country two systems promise was a pretty transparent lie from the Chinese, what it really always was is a temporary policy to ease a transition. Implement actual one country two systems and do it right. Don't abduct book sellers, stop shoving legislation down our throats, stop stacking legco. If universal suffrage was implemented and we didn't have the Chinese Liason office running things in the background, this city wouldn't be so angry all the time during Hand over day. Our government leadership are tied behind their backs yet at the same time claim supreme control of this city. quote:So it is not some bankrupt "both sides" caricature, it's "don't get duped into supporting intervention in Hong Kong by demanding persistent legal separation of Hong Kong from China because of another set of sympathetic protesters that seemingly represent our values against oriental authoritarianism, but also don't invent excuses to consider blatant state terror against honestly struggling people fine". For someone in our position they must be taken together, because either one taken alone leads to carrying water for powerful countries that neither need nor deserve your help because they fundamentally aren't interested in having a free people. This just advocates for separatism if HK can't rely on western powers (sanctions etc) or China to have democracy  I'm not a separatist and like Chinese culture and going to the mainland from time to time. But I think the biggest problem is the authoritarianism of CCP
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Jul 22, 2019 07:24
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Syria is a lot different from Hong Kong, or Ukraine. We used to have high transparency in government and laws. We had a mostly peaceful history besides communist insurrection during 66 and 67. Decent police reform and anti corruption reform to instill public confidence in the government. There's no religious war or animosity between religions High employment, a decent economy - *high inequality though 97% Han Chinese. So no, it's not some colour revolution. Not some sectarianism violence As Felix Chung, head of the liberal party and earliest China collaborator pre 97 said "Only 50% eligible voters actually register and within that population only 20% go out and vote" - our average democracy participation isn't high" But right now with this unrest, and current social trend - people are appealing for political reform because economic reform is stagnant. HK is owned by the land owning elite class affiliated with the Chinese elite
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Jul 22, 2019 07:34
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https://twitter.com/Badcanto/status/1153151810623795200
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Jul 22, 2019 07:38
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https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/cg718n/dogs_seen_coordinating_with_triads_last_night/
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Jul 22, 2019 07:39
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https://twitter.com/hyjpang/status/...-china-49066982
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Jul 22, 2019 07:42
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gh0stpinballa posted:is this gonna turn out kinda like syria where people come out really heavily in support of the protests and then it turns out that actually there's a pretty dark undercurrent of sectarian bigotry driving the uprising but by that point nobody wants to admit they were had? I’m gonna guess the answer is yes based on the number of British flags involved. colonial nostalgia dickheads versus authoritarian douchebag cops lol
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Jul 22, 2019 08:09
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gently caress off I’m not a colonial nostalgia dickhead. and CCP is not the god drat country
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Jul 22, 2019 08:12
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caberham posted:gently caress off I’m not a colonial nostalgia dickhead. not every rebel in Syria was a jihadist either but alas, they are still rip.
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Jul 22, 2019 08:14
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caberham posted:gently caress off I’m not a colonial nostalgia dickhead. there's only one China, bitch, and it's red
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Jul 22, 2019 08:15
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Autism Sneaks posted:there's only one China, bitch, and it's red republic of China
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Jul 22, 2019 08:20
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Ah, yes, both the people protesting and tge government that hires thugs to beat up unarmed civilians are equally worthy of condemnation. If you think about it, none of this violence would have happened if those people just accepted that government's policies in the first place, so they are the ones ultimately at fault for this situation. As a leftist, I
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Jul 22, 2019 08:45
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caberham posted:republic of China wow all that purported freedom and Caberham self-censors "People's" even though they live in one of the PRC's SARs, why is that you think folks
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Jul 22, 2019 08:47
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Lightning Knight posted:not every rebel in Syria was a jihadist either but alas, they are still rip. don't be a goddamn shithead on another note Autism Sneaks posted:there's only one China, bitch, and it's red caberham posted:republic of China Autism Sneaks posted:wow all that purported freedom and Caberham self-censors "People's" even though they live in one of the PRC's SARs, why is that you think folks
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Jul 22, 2019 08:54
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lol at comparing HK to Syria
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Jul 22, 2019 09:09
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GreyjoyBastard posted:don't be a goddamn shithead Is it untrue that the Syrian rebel movement collapsed into infighting and jihadist co-option? I was under the impression that this is what has occurred.
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Jul 22, 2019 09:09
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caberham posted:Implement actual one country two systems and do it right. Don't abduct book sellers, stop shoving legislation down our throats, stop stacking legco. Simply because of geography, separatism is pretty much impossible without relying on a token US military presence or similar so obviously I don't advocate for that. I suppose what I support is popular resistance to eroding the autonomy that is left. Even though the struggle seems futile in the long term if mainland China doesn't change, that doesn't mean the short term has no value, things can change in the meantime and the end result will in any case be shaped by struggle. So really I should have clearly positioned myself in support of the protesters from the beginning, I was basically just immersed in a dumb internet style of debating about the events, treating it like a sports event happening on social media.
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Jul 22, 2019 09:14
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caberham posted:Not having universal suffrage is the biggest one. This poo poo has been stewing over 20 years. I wouldn't be out on the streets if we removed functional constituencies and had universal suffrage. If universal suffrage isn't a singular systemic answer to your current political conflicts, why do you keep demanding it as the (only) solution to the question of transfer of governing power? btw the reason why western governments keep calling for it is bcuz is relly easy to manipulate
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Jul 22, 2019 09:18
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Lightning Knight posted:Is it untrue that the Syrian rebel movement collapsed into infighting and jihadist co-option? I was under the impression that this is what has occurred. the reasons why it did so are complex and interesting and, at best, not generalizable to dismissing Hong Kong autonomy protests
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Jul 22, 2019 09:24
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Much like with Taiwan, the CCP could literally just ignore HK and let them do whatever but Xi / the current CCP leadership has an obsession with legacy and fixing 'historical mistakes'. There's also a tendency by pro-CCP people to buy into this narrative and their claims even though they run fully against traditional communist thought, much like everything else China does.
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Jul 22, 2019 09:36
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I'm angry and scared for my friends in HK over this men in white shirts with clubs situation and I don't know how to help them from half a world away. this is bullshit. stay safe caberham.
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Jul 22, 2019 09:41
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Grapplejack posted:Much like with Taiwan, the CCP could literally just ignore HK and let them do whatever but Xi / the current CCP leadership has an obsession with legacy and fixing 'historical mistakes'. There's also a tendency by pro-CCP people to buy into this narrative and their claims even though they run fully against traditional communist thought, much like everything else China does. oh you're an authority on communist thought now are you
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Jul 22, 2019 09:56
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R. Guyovich posted:oh you're an authority on communist thought now are you its p easy to get the degree nowadays tho
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Jul 22, 2019 10:01
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R. Guyovich posted:oh you're an authority on communist thought now are you Look I have this degree from Liberty U that says that I am a master of communist thought
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Jul 22, 2019 10:05
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Kurnugia posted:If universal suffrage isn't a singular systemic answer to your current political conflicts, why do you keep demanding it as the (only) solution to the question of transfer of governing power? I apologize, I have trouble understanding this question. What other systemic factors are causing current political conflicts? This extradition ordinance only ballooned up with street protests because the legislature is stacked with functional constituencies. The DAB, the pro government party were always proud of this bill and believed in justice for the Murderer yet now after these protests they turn around and claim not their fault. The biggest opportunist boot lickers. quote:btw the reason why western governments keep calling for it is bcuz is relly easy to manipulate The current public opinion is not appealing. The more this bill drags on, the more interference you see from the China liason office and they resort to the usual tricks like they do in the mainland Hire thugs, beat people. They have near limitless wealth but are still creatively broken. During the early stages of this protest and throughout Carrie Lam’s reign, you see a lot less love china love Hong Kong type paid protestors compared to her predecessor CY Leung. She was the one who initiated the bill (as the central government initially claimed) and thought she could deal with this 2 birds with 1 stone. Now with this mess, and foreign media/governments talking - it has become a national domestic private matter and everyone’s on the same loop.
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Jul 22, 2019 10:08
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caberham posted:I apologize, I have trouble understanding this question. What other systemic factors are causing current political conflicts? caberham posted:This extradition ordinance only ballooned up with street protests because the legislature is stacked with functional constituencies. er, ok. if i had some miracle of a solution, i'd tell you. i dont have a solution. what im sure of tho, is if you keep escalating your conflict and protests with the sole demand of implementing a western parliamentary system, CCP is not going to accept. they will escalate in turn, hire thugs, beat people. it's not going to end well for you if neither side can compromise, political conflicts are resolved through violence
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Jul 22, 2019 10:34
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I’m in yuen long and there’s mass paranoia
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Jul 22, 2019 10:58
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