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Larry Parrish posted:How hard is it to remember from each according to his ability, to each to according to his needs you jackasses. it fades away with each and each different interpretation, something so simple and something easily lost
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Jul 22, 2019 05:04
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Flowers For Algeria posted:I don’t believe however that a socialist revolution is enough to stop the ongoing ecocide, for the purely quantitative reasons I exposed a few posts ago (you simply can’t provide the consumption and emission levels of Americans to the entire world... I guess I don’t see why it is axiomatic that anyone wants to adopt, export, or sustain said consumption and emission levels other than the capitalists. Sure if you frame it exclusively in terms of taking away cheeseburgers and F350s people clam up, but everyone I talk to, including some pretty ardent reactionaries, are open to lifestyle adjustments as part of a hypothetical program of systemic change. Lots of people I know would love nothing more than a tiny house, locally-sourced and plastic-free food, and a job that isn’t tethered to driving and car ownership.
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Jul 22, 2019 05:36
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Yeah I mean realistically a single room with a place to sleep and some books and a bathroom with shower and I'm good to go I could live happily sequestered from the world
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Jul 22, 2019 05:38
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"green" economics is liberal class warfare
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Jul 22, 2019 05:42
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I don't know if there's a way to say this without coming off as some bougie rear end in a top hat, but even while holding down a white collar job, there's still a shedload of precarity and uncertainty, usually involved with not knowing if you're going to have a job month-to-month, year-to-year, that I'd much rather not have to deal with even if it meant giving up having my own car, eating out, having quite as many clothes and jewelry and materialistic hobbies, and so on.
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Jul 22, 2019 05:52
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yeah there isn't
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Jul 22, 2019 06:06
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:not all anarchists are primmy dipshits like that guy #NotAllAnarchists
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Jul 22, 2019 08:22
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gradenko_2000 posted:I don't know if there's a way to say this without coming off as some bougie rear end in a top hat, but even while holding down a white collar job, there's still a shedload of precarity and uncertainty, usually involved with not knowing if you're going to have a job month-to-month, year-to-year, that I'd much rather not have to deal with even if it meant giving up having my own car, eating out, having quite as many clothes and jewelry and materialistic hobbies, and so on. i dont get any of the things you're willing to give up as it is. you know what my big monthly treat to myself is? a $20 meal from the Mexican joint my sister works at. i have about three outfits, my car is perpetually on the verge of exploding due to deferred maintenance, and literally the only vague sort of contentment I can squeeze out of my never ending groundhog day of going to work and faking an entire persona is cigarettes and occasionally a steam game what I'm saying is gently caress off, those materialisms you're willing to give up for security are insignificant anyway, you loving petit bougioise coward. Who cares that you're white collar job is just as unstable as mine lol. I'd kill to be in your position. As lovely as being white collar can be at least you can afford housing and probably take a girl to dinner sometimes
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Jul 22, 2019 08:25
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the last time I was even more self-deprecating and said I wouldn't mind losing the computer, the cellphone, the TV entirely, the reaction was that it's a right-wing myth that socialism is going to need to severely degrade all our lives just to make it sustainable for everyone, so idk anymore
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Jul 22, 2019 08:37
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maybe take away larry's car just in case. i hear those are bad
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Jul 22, 2019 08:39
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i hear communists have to sit around in the dirt grunting all day about how they dont have any food or money which are things im already good at doing so sign me up
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Jul 22, 2019 08:41
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Poniard posted:i hear communists have to sit around in the dirt grunting all day about how they dont have any food or money which are things im already good at doing so sign me up welcome comrade
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Jul 22, 2019 08:57
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gradenko_2000 posted:the last time I was even more self-deprecating and said I wouldn't mind losing the computer, the cellphone, the TV entirely, the reaction was that it's a right-wing myth that socialism is going to need to severely degrade all our lives just to make it sustainable for everyone, so idk anymore by now you should know better than making the mistake of admitting you have nice things in C-SPAM, a visit from the specter of left grievance politics that goes by Larry was inevitable
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Jul 22, 2019 09:01
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Larry Parrish posted:i dont get any of the things you're willing to give up as it is. you know what my big monthly treat to myself is? a $20 meal from the Mexican joint my sister works at. i have about three outfits, my car is perpetually on the verge of exploding due to deferred maintenance, and literally the only vague sort of contentment I can squeeze out of my never ending groundhog day of going to work and faking an entire persona is cigarettes and occasionally a steam game it’s ok, next season I’ll start in PoE with you. 
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Jul 22, 2019 09:06
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Kobayashi posted:I guess I don’t see why it is axiomatic that anyone wants to adopt, export, or sustain said consumption and emission levels other than the capitalists. Sure if you frame it exclusively in terms of taking away cheeseburgers and F350s people clam up, but everyone I talk to, including some pretty ardent reactionaries, are open to lifestyle adjustments as part of a hypothetical program of systemic change. Lots of people I know would love nothing more than a tiny house, locally-sourced and plastic-free food, and a job that isn’t tethered to driving and car ownership. Yeah, IMO one of the key points is that America (and, generally, the ex-colonial Anglosphere) is exceptionally wasteful, with the rest of the industrialized world having settled in at ca. half American per-capita emissions for manufacturing-focused economies with primarily fossil fuel generation (Germany, Japan, South Korea) to ca. 1/3 for heavily nuclearized or completely post-industrial ones in mild climates (France, the UK). I don't believe there'd be a huge loss of standard of living or a huge amount of unrest if Americans (and Canadians, and Aussies, and so forth) were asked to live like Frenchmen with existing technology. The problem is that, while this roughly handles 2030 1.5 degree targets for those countries, it does nothing about the global south (the best possible world for China as a developed country that's an early implementer of advanced mitigation is probably around or slightly over current emissions, and India developing to these levels would be another 25% increase globally over present-day emissions) and nothing about longterm improvements. Frankly, even net near-zero emissions, the "a nuclear power considers rising seas to be an act of war and presses the big red button, anthropogenic carbon emissions are reduced to celebratory cave fires when the tribe spears a rad-cockroach" option, are a pretty nightmarish scenario ecologically. In my opinion, a centrally-planned society, especially one characterized by at least continental states, can at least pursue the following mitigations: - A Great Patriotic War-scale effort for effective carbon scrubbing and other geoengineering. I don't believe we can whistle past the graveyard and rely on this to come up boxcars, but an advanced technological society with high nuclear and renewable energy utilization is the only option which doesn't see ecological catastrophe; we're already past the point where mass deaths tomorrow followed by a return to mud huts would even result in a stable ecosystem around those mud huts. However, the methods currently being studied are either extremely energy-intensive (on the order of two refrigerators per person to achieve carbon neutrality, rising to four or five with a developed global south at French emissions levels) or would require the mining of double-digit percentages of theoretical accessible global reserves of the reactants; whether the solution is a gigantic construction program for the energy-intensive device and nuclear plants to power it, or an equally gigantic program for production of the chemical option matched with a hugely labor-intensive mining effort or one of the few arguments for asteroid mining, these are things only achievable by hemispheric or global states. - An immediate shift to open borders and entirely planned urban development and redevelopment on a continental level at minimum, to mitigate the human tragedy guaranteed in even in a zero-emissions world. Identify sites ideal for human habitation at 2-4 degree rises, and begin a wholesale shift of the Earth's population into maximally-carbon-efficient mid-density clusters in these areas, recognizing that many states simply don't have qualifying sites and will need to merge into larger entities. A modern nation-state will inevitably pursue this as an imperial project, at best leveraging the desperation of refugees to create an underclass and at worst murdering their "rivals" at the foot of their walls; only forging new shared identities which at the least see plenty of welcoming, zero-or-negative-carbon-impact electric-mass-transit-centric (so wood, adobe, and electrically-quarried stone to their maximum density are in, concrete and steel are out, implying a density similar to suburban Tokyo or Astoria) government housing for a Panamanian in Buffalo or a Chennaiite in Novosibirsk will avoid a period of mass migration instability worse than post-Roman Europe, even with immediate zero emissions. - Accompanying this, nationalized farming, food production, and food distribution on a regional level. Simply moving to local markets encourages wasteful attempts at forcing luxuries to survive the local microclimate, and is incompatible with preserving existing food cultures following migration; conversely, especially in a world that's going to be steeped in psychosocial nihilism, preference of immediate luxuries shipped in from halfway across the world will only increase. The only solution is what would now be considered a totalitarian level of ensuring that farming is done as close to clean transport as possible, and enforcing the growing of niche crops on the most suited land even if luxury foods would command a higher trade value, on a scale which allows for a single entity to ensure access to the crops each of its constituent people prefer with an optimization between transport distance and carbon intensity of production; further, socially-sensitive rationing with multiple options is also necessary to ensure that each culture shifts back towards its less-intensive preferences without cutting any culture off from its staples, and to encourage the development and adoption of more efficient crops in cultures with no history of their use. (Every time I read about the soybean crops rotting under tarps in the US now after untold gallons of diesel burnt to sow and reap them, I sob a little bit that no one's showed Americans the joy of deep-fried tofu in barbecue sauce and instead it's gone to complete waste as an unwanted meat substitute.) - Mass effort to manage the shift of ecosystems toward cooler climes, or failing this to record their current state and preserve as many species as possible in captivity or cultivation. Immense cultural and scientific value, near-zero immediately exploitable value; only possible in a society which values unmonetizable public good, can mobilize significant amounts of labor, and controls both the present and hypothetical future range. - If not a global one child policy, at least the provision of a strong universal pension and basic household (rather than individual) income to discourage reproduction as a retirement plan, reproduction as a method of securing a continued relationship with a household breadwinner, and to encourage cultural activity rather than reproduction as a method of ensuring one's legacy. None of these will solve the mess we're in. Nothing will make the world be 1955 for all eternity. But all of these would make the world a better place both for humans and for other species than their alternatives, and all require a centralized, non-capitalist and non-liberal state; if they're not pursued on a socialist basis, I expect to see worse versions of them attempted by fascist, theocratic, or dark enlightenment trends, with corresponding suffering for their neighbors and their own lower classes. Anyway, I'll take a super size tof-b-q. Extra sauce packet, if you don't mind.
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Jul 22, 2019 09:10
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if I wanted to blow my brains out this morning I would have opened the Climate Change thread myself you fucker
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Jul 22, 2019 12:18
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is there someplace in CSPAM people are discussing the Puerto Rico protests? poo poo seems to be going down there
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Jul 22, 2019 12:27
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Larry Parrish posted:
petite bourgeoisie is not just anyone with more money than you, and I’m willing to bet that gradenko and 99% of the posters in here with “white collar jobs” are as much members of the precariat as anyone else, albeit different by degrees of intensity. like someone making $30-$60k is a far cry from petit bourgeois, and the fact that those positions are as unstable as retail or other service work is exactly the thing you should care about, since our discursive standard for acceptable work conditions is largely predicated on how we treat the mythological white collar middle class. instead of “lol gently caress off” your instinct should be solidarity between people who make around the average income because there is no meaningful distinction between them in a Marxist analysis a better argument might be acknowledging that a lot of those so called white collar workers who are basically the equivalent to a mid-20th century factory worker in a Levittown are tools of capital who have been taken in by false consciousness and use those materialistic indulgences as a palliative and alternative to class consciousness or political awareness. those people are used by capital, the actual petit bourgeois business tyrant/dickhead with stocks and a high salary, or the professional-managerial liberals, to sustain class antagonism via hatred for the poor Marxism 101 is like, the factory worker shouldn’t shut the clerk next door out from organizing because he makes 25% more a year and gets a chair, because they’re both proles, and I don’t think anyone in this thread is making enough to even qualify as actually upper middle class, much less petit bourgeois
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Jul 22, 2019 13:21
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Atrocious Joe posted:is there someplace in CSPAM people are discussing the Puerto Rico protests? poo poo seems to be going down there here's a good primer https://twitter.com/oppsyirwin/status/1152968581862346752
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Jul 22, 2019 13:22
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i'm a "white-collar worker" in that i sit at a desk and mostly deal with stuff on paper and computers, but i get paid 30k a year (just got a crazy raise from 28k because the school did some sort of evaluation and realized that the reason everyone quits inside of 6 months is that the pay was 10% below the state average). i woke up last week $55 in the red because i have student loans, car payment, medical debt etc and some unexpected bills had sapped my savings. i don't have poo poo to my name. seems to me that the distinction between blue and white collar is as artificial as every other division capitalism imposes on us to think we're not all getting hosed over
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Jul 22, 2019 13:29
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Frog Act posted:petite bourgeoisie is not just anyone with more money than you, and I’m willing to bet that gradenko and 99% of the posters in here with “white collar jobs” are as much members of the precariat as anyone else, albeit different by degrees of intensity. like someone making $30-$60k is a far cry from petit bourgeois, and the fact that those positions are as unstable as retail or other service work is exactly the thing you should care about, since our discursive standard for acceptable work conditions is largely predicated on how we treat the mythological white collar middle class. instead of “lol gently caress off” your instinct should be solidarity between people who make around the average income because there is no meaningful distinction between them in a Marxist analysis looking at income as a class determinant is dumb, because then you get small business owners claiming to be in the proletariat
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Jul 22, 2019 14:18
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Atrocious Joe posted:is there someplace in CSPAM people are discussing the Puerto Rico protests? poo poo seems to be going down there just make a new thread
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Jul 22, 2019 15:07
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Frog Act posted:petite bourgeoisie is not just anyone with more money than you, and I’m willing to bet that gradenko and 99% of the posters in here with “white collar jobs” are as much members of the precariat as anyone else, albeit different by degrees of intensity. like someone making $30-$60k is a far cry from petit bourgeois, and the fact that those positions are as unstable as retail or other service work is exactly the thing you should care about, since our discursive standard for acceptable work conditions is largely predicated on how we treat the mythological white collar middle class. instead of “lol gently caress off” your instinct should be solidarity between people who make around the average income because there is no meaningful distinction between them in a Marxist analysis i know lol. sorry for being a little histrionic. look i live in a place where I'm surrounded by idle landlords and small business owners that preach about how virtuous they are for allowing anyone to touch their sanctified property while talking about how the dreaded liberal state government is always trying to steal the shirt off their back and frankly the fact I havent gone on an arson spree yet is shocking
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Jul 22, 2019 15:14
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:looking at income as a class determinant is dumb, because then you get small business owners claiming to be in the proletariat funny how this sentiment always seems to come from people who make six figures no, it isn’t the sole determinant, but lol if you think it isn’t the first and most useful metric in a society where nobody owns any amount of capital so it’s basically never relevant
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Jul 22, 2019 15:52
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Frog Act posted:funny how this sentiment always seems to come from people who make six figures you left out the part where you tell him to paid his maid
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Jul 22, 2019 15:55
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i make $69 an hour at the dick sucking factory
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Jul 22, 2019 16:42
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THS posted:i make $69 an hour at the dick sucking factory I make $420 dollars a week at the weed store
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Jul 22, 2019 16:52
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Frog Act posted:funny how this sentiment always seems to come from people who make six figures the first and most useful metric in a society where nobody owns any amount of capital is that there actually are people who do own quite a significant amount of capital
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Jul 22, 2019 16:54
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:the first and most useful metric in a society where nobody owns any amount of capital is that there actually are people who do own quite a significant amount of capital yeah that post made no sense lol
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Jul 22, 2019 17:07
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i only make about 36k euros a year (~16k after all the taxes) and the people with six or even low 7 figgies aren't worth poo poo either, so no, it's not just 6 figures people saying it until you're davos rich you're just another drone in the colony
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Jul 22, 2019 17:09
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if you cant afford your own island and child sex dungeon then you’re part of the proletariat
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Jul 22, 2019 17:17
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:the first and most useful metric in a society where nobody owns any amount of capital is that there actually are people who do own quite a significant amount of capital uh, what? those are the parameters that determine what constitutes relative prosperity. if you just stop there you aren’t engaging in meaningful class analysis, you’re just saying “the rich exist” which isn’t helpful, even “they exist and shouldn’t” isn’t meaningful because it fails to account for the enormous intermediary class that sustains the interests of capital. it is possible to be an enemy of proletarian interests and not own a significant amount of capital yourself and anyone peddling the myth that it isn’t is dumb and wrong and one of the people playing interference on behalf of the professional managerial class
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Jul 22, 2019 17:19
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you can be that doesn't mean you're not said proletariat, though.
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Jul 22, 2019 17:35
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Frog Act posted:uh, what? those are the parameters that determine what constitutes relative prosperity. if you just stop there you aren’t engaging in meaningful class analysis, you’re just saying “the rich exist” which isn’t helpful, even “they exist and shouldn’t” isn’t meaningful because it fails to account for the enormous intermediary class that sustains the interests of capital. and I'm saying focusing your time on these people is a fool's errand
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Jul 22, 2019 17:35
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"I dont like Jerry Jones" frog act: whoa whoa have you seen how much dak prescott makes
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Jul 22, 2019 17:37
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theres not a very hard line that separates who is and who isnt a worker. physicians can make 300k+ a year in many cases but residents are often making 40k a year and working 100 hour weeks. even those who are firmly what we would agree are petty bourgeois can be persuaded in some cases to take the side of the workers or at least stay neutral in a conflict. thats not saying a political program should be centered around trying to appeal specifically to them, but it should at least seek to appeal to as broad a layer of the working class as possible and hopefully in such a way that it doesnt spark an immediate reactionary response from the middle classes and keeps them on the sidelines
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Jul 22, 2019 17:45
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i think fighting for rent control is a good example of how this can play out in action. in most cities the vast majority of rentals are owned by huge property management corporations that make millions and billions. there are also however independent and small time landlords. now the latter can be just as predatory as the former, but if youre developing propaganda its much more effective to focus on attacking the large corporations as overwhelmingly people will side against them, whereas taking a shotgun blast approach could alienate people who are smalltime landlords who again might stay neutral or those who have family or friends who may own rental properties that they may sympathize with. it doesnt mean you make exceptions in your demands or necessarily take the side of small landlords, it's just you focus your attacks on the larger enemy in a way that hopefully doesnt cause the corporations, the smalltime landlords, and community members to unite in opposition. a fight against landlords will look a lot better and mobilize much more popular support if the only people getting up to speak at a city commission meeting are suits from a huge outside company than if theres also a bunch of local residents who spin a narrative of how small business owners are being targeted or whatever. its just dividing your enemies.
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Jul 22, 2019 17:54
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i say swears online posted:and I'm saying focusing your time on these people is a fool's errand yeah why would anyone try to understand why capitalism works the way it does when they could just ignore it
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Jul 22, 2019 18:00
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Frog Act posted:yeah why would anyone try to understand why capitalism works the way it does when they could just ignore it lol I think you mean incomism
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Jul 22, 2019 18:01
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i say swears online posted:lol I think you mean incomism identifying the way people become part of the PMC or how income correlates with being beholden to the interests of capital is not “incomism” and it’s absurd that someone could simultaneously consider themselves Marxist while also believing class analysis is unimportant
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Jul 22, 2019 18:03
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