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punk rebel ecks posted:I see. Uh what? International worker unity and rejection of nationalism is a core tenant of communism.
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Jul 22, 2019 19:17
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punk rebel ecks posted:I see. Uhh, no? Stalinism sure, maybe, and I guess from a US perspective that's the same thing, but the socialist internationals were hardly isolationist affairs. Aside from that going back even as early UK communism there was a fair amount of concern for migrant labour as well, it being one of the differences between early socialist and trade organisations. e: f; beaten
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Jul 22, 2019 19:18
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Private Speech posted:Uhh, no? Stalinism sure, Not even then I'd say. Remember that the Soviet Union was made up of several distinct nations but nationalism was not tolerated. During WW2 he did make appeals to a quasi form of Slavic nationalism to emphasize that it was a fight not mainly about ideology (communism vs fascism) but of life and death (Germans/fascism versus the Eastern European people) That you a member of the people and everyone you loved was sentenced to death from birth by the Germans and you had to fight to survive The ideological aspect was there but it was not a call to fight to advance the cause of communism but a fight to protect the mother country.
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Jul 22, 2019 19:28
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Eschenique posted:Not even then I'd say. Remember that the Soviet Union was made up of several distinct nations but nationalism was not tolerated. Well there was some oppression of the minorities as well; while theoretically it was a union of equals the mainstream Russian culture was definitely preferred as the 'primary' soviet one. And 'the mother country' is clearly not an internationalist appeal.
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Jul 22, 2019 19:35
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I find it confusing because the EU doesn't scream "socialist" to me. They seem very pro-free market and trade. It's not like the countries in the EU are pushing for economies of democratizing the workplace or nationalizations. I mean, look at how the EU treated Greece.
punk rebel ecks fucked around with this message at 19:48 on Jul 22, 2019 |
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Jul 22, 2019 19:44
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punk rebel ecks posted:I find it confusing because the EU doesn't scream "socialist" to me. They seem very pro-free market and trade. It's not like the countries in the EU are pushing for economies of democratizing the workplace or nationalizations. I mean, look at how the EU treated Greece. The current EU isn't socialist, and is indeed mostly pro trade and free markets. However, these same institutions and ideas can be used for good. At least, that's the theory. Plus, as discussed before, once you have an EU it's very hard to get rid of, and destroying it would cause huge damage. Junior G-man fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Jul 22, 2019 |
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Jul 22, 2019 19:48
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punk rebel ecks posted:I find it confusing because the EU doesn't scream "socialist" to me. They seem very pro-free market and trade. It's not like the countries in the EU are pushing for economies of democratizing the workplace or nationalizations. The common understanding of socialism is something like 80s social democracy. A free market but with government chains on it in case it gets out of line. This is where liberals jump in with "acktually the Nordic countries are capitalist countries with wide ranging social support systems" Because once you nail down your definition of "Socialism" as a definition that has never existed in any country ever. Then for some reason, few countries fit the mold any more. And you get to sit in the liberal corner as leftists discuss how the state support systems for the poor and sick needs to be expanded. By all accounts a free market is good for everyone (compared to the alternatives) but the profits should also be taxed and part of the taxes used to preserve the life and dignity of those who lose out in a free market system (workers, farmers etc depending on the country and economy) Eschenique fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Jul 22, 2019 |
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Jul 22, 2019 19:53
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A Buttery Pastry posted:"Workers of the world, unite!" has been a rallying cry of the left since 1848. I think the problem here is that you have a single word, "internationalism", and very different definitions. Internationalism as the free movement of capital and products is not what the left intended with that slogan.
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Jul 22, 2019 20:06
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Junior G-man posted:It was scoffed at the time, but if you really want to develop the EU it must absolutely launch EU-bonds that would allow us to create much more sustainable energy and transport systems across the EU. The Germans, of course, are dead against it. German translation: transition away from DAS AUTO and BRAUNKOHLE? Nein danke 
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Jul 22, 2019 20:10
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Cat Mattress posted:I think the problem here is that you have a single word, "internationalism", and very different definitions. You mean globalism?
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Jul 22, 2019 20:10
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Orange Devil posted:German translation: transition away from DAS AUTO and BRAUNKOHLE? Nein danke Well, the energiewende is definitely a thing, even DAS AUTO is (finally) getting in on the electric car game which is good. We could talk about nuclear, but let's agree not to?
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Jul 22, 2019 20:15
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Eschenique posted:The common understanding of socialism is something like 80s social democracy. A free market but with government chains on it in case it gets out of line. This is some of the dumbest gibberish I've read in this thread in months. The common understanding of socialism you outline is only common in the United States, a country consisting in its entirety of abject idiots. I'm a socialist and this is where I'd jump in with "actually the Nordic countries are and always have been capitalist countries", because this corresponds with observable reality. Then the rest is just so dumb it's not even wrong and would take me far more words to address and would just end up with another tedious "babies first lessons in socialism" exchange that nobody wants to read.
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Jul 22, 2019 20:16
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Orange Devil posted:This is some of the dumbest gibberish I've read in this thread in months.
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Jul 22, 2019 20:21
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Wooohaa. Did not see that free markets are good bit edited in. Yeah that's p dumb.
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Jul 22, 2019 20:22
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Orange Devil posted:This is some of the dumbest gibberish I've read in this thread in months. So, are you saying profits shouldn't be taxed, or did you stop reading before the last paragraph?
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Jul 22, 2019 20:25
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Alternatively, the EU could fund that poo poo through corporate taxes on business that happens anywhere in the EU. "We'll just move somewhere else!" becomes a pretty empty threat if it means just not doing business in the EU at all. I honestly have no idea how this isn't a huge rallying cry on the left at the moment. The corporate tax race to the bottom has played a huge role in gutting social support budgets across the Western world over the last few decades. The EU is one of probably only 3 countries/regions on the planet (along with the US and China) which is large enough to say "gently caress that, you want access to our gigantic market? You pay a reasonable rate of tax" and actually have companies comply. It doesn't even matter what exactly the money is spent on - an EU dividend for every EU citizen, re-distributive income for those earning significantly less than the EU median income, or even just infrastructure projects in deprived areas - whatever. But the money just needs to be collected and used for something better for society than corporate profits.
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Jul 22, 2019 20:28
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Orange Devil posted:This is some of the dumbest gibberish I've read in this thread in months. What's your alternative to a free market then? The Canton model? Tariff walls?
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Jul 22, 2019 20:38
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punk rebel ecks posted:I find it confusing because the EU doesn't scream "socialist" to me. They seem very pro-free market and trade. It's not like the countries in the EU are pushing for economies of democratizing the workplace or nationalizations. I mean, look at how the EU treated Greece. imagine you're in a human centipede (EU) and you can't be taken out, right now you're eating poo poo and making GBS threads into someone else's mouth but you're hoping that you'll somehow manage to get the reins of the centipede and get yours and others' lips off the anuses of the ones in front that's the position leftists in the EU are in and yes, it's not good
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Jul 22, 2019 20:51
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Eschenique posted:What's your alternative to a free market then? The Canton model? Tariff walls? Regulated markets?
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Jul 22, 2019 20:52
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Libluini posted:So, are you saying profits shouldn't be taxed, or did you stop reading before the last paragraph? he's saying free market capitalism isn't socialist and he's right you don't get to cloak yourself in socialism if you're a capitalist, just own it
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Jul 22, 2019 20:52
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Eschenique posted:Not even then I'd say. Remember that the Soviet Union was made up of several distinct nations but nationalism was not tolerated. Well, originally it was encouraged as part of maintaining cultural heritage until Stalin noticed said countries asking "why is Russia always in charge when it's even run by a Georgian?" And thus Russification was enforced by boot and muzzle.
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Jul 22, 2019 21:07
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Eschenique posted:What's your alternative to a free market then? The Canton model? Tariff walls? Thunderdome op.
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Jul 22, 2019 21:08
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I'm a posado-barterist.
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Jul 22, 2019 21:09
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amazon prime but as government
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Jul 22, 2019 21:11
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punk rebel ecks posted:So what exactly is the end goal of the European Union? To be one nation like the United States? Why is the left so gunho about it while the right is not? You'd think it would be the opposite since the EU, at least from a distance, seems so pro-free markets and the like. Opposition to the EU was first and foremost a leftist position for decades until most parties folded on the issue, the far-right opposition is a comparatively recent phenomenon. Now Social Democracy is dying and evil tongues would have you believe there's a connection, but they just don't seem to get that it's ackshully a bulwark against fascism. Edit: Oh, there's another page.
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Jul 22, 2019 21:12
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basement dweller posted:he's saying free market capitalism isn't socialist and he's right But the guy he quoted wasn't talking about free market capitalism, he was talking about a social market economy, which is something different. Hell, if you showed a description of chained market capitalism to a bog-standard American, I'm sure they would recoil like vampires before the cross and howl something about communists.
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Jul 22, 2019 21:13
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Libluini posted:But the guy he quoted wasn't talking about free market capitalism, he was talking about a social market economy, which is something different. Hell, if you showed a description of chained market capitalism to a bog-standard American, I'm sure they would recoil like vampires before the cross and howl something about communists. Pretty sure if you showed the average American a crossword they'd say the same thing.
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Jul 22, 2019 21:15
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punk rebel ecks posted:I find it confusing because the EU doesn't scream "socialist" to me. They seem very pro-free market and trade. It's not like the countries in the EU are pushing for economies of democratizing the workplace or nationalizations. I mean, look at how the EU treated Greece. "Internationalism" is a term that refers less to free trade between nations (which, along with the interdependence between distant markets has generally been called "globalisation") and more to the common struggles of workers across borders. The working poor in America, Greece, and Bagladesh are subject to the same kinds of capitalist exploitation, and internationalism tells you that if you care about worker's rights in your country, you should also care about worker's rights in other countries, because you, who is a worker, have more in common with a worker from another country, than with a rich person from your country. Globalisation, then creates an interesting challenge to a socialist: on one hand, it makes it easier for capitalists to move their industries, or accept immigrant workers, which creates competition in the labour market between first world workers (who used to enjoy a comparatively privileged position) and third world workers who are willing to do the same work for lower pay. So you see some socialists treat open borders and globalisation as a capitalist plot to increase profits at the expense of workers. Internationalist socialists will treat this as capitalism doing what capitalism does, and instead treat it as an opportunity for solidarity to cross borders and nationalities. And in the case of the EU, why, you even have the framework of a state! A framework that could, potentially, be used to protect and expand workers' rights and challenge capitalism across Europe. After all, it's not like the countries that aren't in the EU are any less part of the global economy, so what's there to gain by leaving it? You'd just end up with a country that has to deal with capitalism on its own and how exactly is that gonna work?
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Jul 22, 2019 21:24
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Libluini posted:But the guy he quoted wasn't talking about free market capitalism, he was talking about a social market economy, which is something different. Hell, if you showed a description of chained market capitalism to a bog-standard American, I'm sure they would recoil like vampires before the cross and howl something about communists. social democracy is capitalism it's not socialism these words aren't play-doh, you can't just twist them into whatever you want
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Jul 22, 2019 21:57
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Eschenique posted:What's your alternative to a free market then? The Canton model? Tariff walls? Make all private corporations workers cooperatives and nationalize all large resource industries and hire CEOs by public vote. Break up big banks into one big nationalized bank and credit unions. Also have participatory budgeting.
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Jul 22, 2019 22:11
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punk rebel ecks posted:Make all private corporations workers cooperatives and nationalize all large resource industries and hire CEOs by public vote. Break up big banks into one big nationalized bank and credit unions. Also have participatory budgeting. Been there, done that, have been recovering the last 30 years from it. No, thanks
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Jul 22, 2019 22:21
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goethe42 posted:Been there, done that, have been recovering the last 30 years from it. No, thanks Where was this? Because if it's Yugoslavia, then that's not what I'm referring to.
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Jul 22, 2019 22:30
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Jul 22, 2019 22:31
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basement dweller posted:social democracy is capitalism Well, thanks for the non-sequitur, completely unconnected to the post you quoted, basement dweller I especially love how you, without a hint of self awareness, can read a post about capitalism, and your answer is "It's not capitalism, it's capitalism!!!"
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Jul 22, 2019 22:31
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Likely Yugoslavia where they still had a command economy and just gave workers the ability to "run their own businesses" without giving them power in the grand scheme of things. Similar to what modern Cuba is experimenting with. Edit - You edited your post.
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Jul 22, 2019 22:32
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Yeah I saw you asking more politely and decided to go with your question. Still, I bet it's the usual "something different than now was tried, hence nothing different than now can work!!!" That so many trot out.
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Jul 22, 2019 22:36
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Libluini posted:Well, thanks for the non-sequitur, completely unconnected to the post you quoted, basement dweller the original poster talked about socialism being commonly understood to be social democracy so it's the very opposite of non sequitur
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Jul 22, 2019 22:38
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https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.in...6301.html%3famp Sooo, the UK realizes that its navy is pitiful, seeks a joint EU task force. BREXIT
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Jul 22, 2019 22:41
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Dawncloack posted:Yeah I saw you asking more politely and decided to go with your question. Still, I bet it's the usual "something different than now was tried, hence nothing different than now can work!!!" That so many trot out. To add to this, these things have been done in other countries well. Porto Allegro in Brazil has Participatory budgeting and it's one of the most developed places in the country partially because of it. A third of Bologna, Italy's GDP comes from cooperatives. While Germany has half of business board members being elected by workers. Credit unions have been shown to be more stable than private banks. And Iceland broke up their banks and nationalized one of them. What I'm suggesting is already being done now, successfully I might add. It's just a matter of combining them all. The issue with socialism in the 20th century is that they focused on killing the private market rather than finding out how to harness it.
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Jul 22, 2019 22:49
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punk rebel ecks posted:To add to this, these things have been done in other countries well. I was tempted to reply to this by smacking random keys on the keyboard. What you're describing is third-way-ism, which was the defining politics of the 90s in most of the west. It's not socialism harnassing the private market, it's about making the private market just nice enough to the paupers to stop them wondering why they eat poo poo for breakfast.
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Jul 23, 2019 00:10
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