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I'm a fan of the oil refinery change. You're unlikely to be making practical use out of heavy or light oil until after you've got advanced processing anyway, and it smooths out the difficulty curve by having you solve your first production chain of fluid-based recipes without also requiring you to solve for multiple outputs; now that one comes later. There's a bit of a logical fudge in that there now isn't a logical purpose for the water input in the advanced recipe, but from a strict game design perspective it makes sense (add an extra input to get some different outputs!).
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Jul 21, 2019 01:06
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I'm worried the newbie trap isn't two ignorable products because I mean you can triage that with a handful of plates and steel for several hours a pop. Also need to worry about the friction to change the first plopped design. People get really weird about pulling up stakes on the belted stuff even though you can neatly grab everything in flight or insert it into a chest in the meantime. A newbie is not going to delete pipes because the liquids disappear and that feels really bad even though there's plenty more where it came from. Blocking off refinery ins/outs isn't a bad step against this but its probably not enough because people are still going to plop some maze of normal pipes in the way of a normal AOP build and be really hesitant to tear it apart.
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Jul 21, 2019 01:18
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On my first run I spent ages searching the tech tree for liquid shut off valve or something similar before googling that pump with green wire does the same job. Oil production is completely different from normal production that it should have its own tutorial like train systems. Accidentally deleting all your liquid in liquid tank when fiddling with wires is annoying too.
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Jul 21, 2019 01:32
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I think processing to only heavy oil (and also giving cracking tech at the same time) is better than processing to just gas, for a few reasons:
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Jul 21, 2019 14:20
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My idea was to remove the Basic and Advanced oil processing recipes altogether, and add a Basic Refinery building which produces one selectable output but at a lesser efficiency. The current refinery would then be an "Advanced" refinery that produces all three at some ratio, and more efficiently than using 3 basic refineries. The end effect would be pretty much the same as yours though, just essentially rolling cracking into the same building. Giving an early introduction to using chemical plants for cracking isn't a bad idea though.
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Jul 21, 2019 15:15
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Fayez Butts posted:I'm about to embark on the journey of Blue Science and I've resorted to using the factorio cheat sheet. What's a good quantity of blue science per second that will get me pretty far into the late game? I was looking at .521/s but it looks like it will take double the power of my entire base as it stands (without any modules). My advice would be to find a way to build in a modular style so you can scale up whenever is appropriate. Using ballpark math, I think in the late game it would be appropriate if you had 10x your estimates. With a conventional bus layout, I started encountering massive throughput bottlenecks at about 20x. I finally finished my game well beyond any conventional ending at 50x your estimates.
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Jul 21, 2019 16:53
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I'm looking forward to having new players build things right next to the refinery so there's nowhere to build pipes to the other two fluids once available, and also no way to pipe water in once possible since there's no real indication a new player might recognize
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Jul 21, 2019 17:06
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Evilreaver posted:I'm looking forward to having new players build things right next to the refinery so there's nowhere to build pipes to the other two fluids once available, and also no way to pipe water in once possible since there's no real indication a new player might recognize That sounds like twice the gameplay since you get to build it twice Plus you’ll feel like a smartypants next time you build your base and you leave enough room
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Jul 21, 2019 19:25
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Devor posted:Plus you’ll feel like a smartypants next time you build your base and you leave enough room I think this is the biggest hurdle for newer players, they invest a lot of time and effort making their first base and don't want to give it up, when restarting and building fresh with lessons learned is almost always better. More/better tutorials and perhaps even a full-game campaign going from burners to rocket would help a lot with this, but on the other hand if you're not willing to throw away a game after putting 50+ hours into it maybe this isn't the right game for certain people. And it seems like a lot of these recent changes are trying to aim things at those people, which takes away a lot of what makes the game what it is. Then again, it is still technically in early access, so we might just have to deal with it.
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Jul 21, 2019 19:58
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Frankly, it doesn't matter a single whit what they do with the base game. Not a single one. At all. What Wube Software does with the base game is *only* of relevance to people who're in the onboarding phase. Literally everyone else can and does adjust the game to whatever they like. And if any given persion really has a big hardon for Factorio as of ~0.16, they can make a classic mod. It's not even that hard, since the game's base definition files are in cleartext. Or just do this: 
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Jul 21, 2019 21:16
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I like the heavy oil idea. I was a bit worried that new players would find the refinery->heavy->light->petroleum tricky, but it should be fine. You can't get that far without building extended chains like that anyways.
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Jul 21, 2019 22:23
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this game is probably the most addictive thing i've ever played, and i played wow in its heyday like this poo poo might put me off games entirely. it's legit causing problems how much time i can lose disappearing into this drat thing lol
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Jul 22, 2019 07:58
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OMGVBFLOL posted:this game is probably the most addictive thing i've ever played, and i played wow in its heyday https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/cfg9bz/thanks_i_just_uninstalled_factorio/
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Jul 22, 2019 09:56
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Roflex posted:I think this is the biggest hurdle for newer players, they invest a lot of time and effort making their first base and don't want to give it up, when restarting and building fresh with lessons learned is almost always better. More/better tutorials and perhaps even a full-game campaign going from burners to rocket would help a lot with this, but on the other hand if you're not willing to throw away a game after putting 50+ hours into it maybe this isn't the right game for certain people. And it seems like a lot of these recent changes are trying to aim things at those people, which takes away a lot of what makes the game what it is. Then again, it is still technically in early access, so we might just have to deal with it. Part of it is I think one of the tutorials should push players if not outright force them to make a new base while their old base is still running and feeding in resources. If it works theres no reason to ever disassemble anything.
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Jul 22, 2019 09:59
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OMGVBFLOL posted:this game is probably the most addictive thing i've ever played, and i played wow in its heyday 
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Jul 22, 2019 15:53
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My factory is coming along nicely and every time I incorporate more systems it always amazes me how perfectly different production lines mesh together. I don't see how people make 1000SPM factories work though. How do you accomplish the throughput of raw resources to run the thing?
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Jul 22, 2019 17:18
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Travic posted:My factory is coming along nicely and every time I incorporate more systems it always amazes me how perfectly different production lines mesh together. A fuckton of trains and a solid rail infrastructure. If you'd like an example, here's my save from AssemblyStorm's gigafactory server from early March. 0.17.x experimental version, ~170MB. Each of the modular science setups on the map is capable of 1000SPM, fed by a network of trains. That save also has a lot of other neat stuff, like a pseudo logistics train setup for building new bases and a crazy defensive arty wall thing.
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Jul 22, 2019 17:41
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Ambaire posted:A fuckton of trains and a solid rail infrastructure. If you'd like an example, here's my save from AssemblyStorm's gigafactory server from early March. 0.17.x experimental version, ~170MB. Each of the modular science setups on the map is capable of 1000SPM, fed by a network of trains. That save also has a lot of other neat stuff, like a pseudo logistics train setup for building new bases and a crazy defensive arty wall thing. Oh I'm definitely loading this up when I get home from work today. Thanks.
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Jul 22, 2019 18:21
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I'm torn between the desire to steal designs / read a guide on how to expand beyond the practical limits of a single belt-based megafactory on the one hand and the feeling that figuring these things out is the game on the other. I'm comfortable enough using trains and robots in relatively simple setups (a single production array, or a handful of overlapping loops with anti-collision traffic controls) but making the conceptual leap to entirely robot-based factories or to train networks that can call and send trains as needed is really hard.
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Jul 22, 2019 21:44
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I'm torn between the desire to steal designs / read a guide on how to expand beyond the practical limits of a single belt-based megafactory on the one hand and the feeling that figuring these things out is the game on the other. As far as I know, train networks that call and send trains as needed is largely a mod (LTN) and while it is tricky to set up the first time, once you futz with it a bit it's a walk in the park. Unless you're talking about rail stops that enable/disable themselves on circuit conditions, which it sounds like you're familiar with already!
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Jul 22, 2019 23:37
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So I've been working on getting into this game after playing a decent bit of Satisfactory, but I'm finding myself getting stressed out about potential biter attacks and shutting it off. I dealt with them pretty easily the first couple times and they didn't do too much damage, but I'm still weirdly paranoid about them to the point that I have a hard time focusing on my base. I feel like I'd be missing out on a significant portion of the game if I switched to Peaceful mode, just feel like I prefer Satisfactory's way of having aliens be something you have to worry about while looking for resources and slugs, but otherwise leave you alone in your base.
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Jul 23, 2019 00:28
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Squashing Machine posted:So I've been working on getting into this game after playing a decent bit of Satisfactory, but I'm finding myself getting stressed out about potential biter attacks and shutting it off. I dealt with them pretty easily the first couple times and they didn't do too much damage, but I'm still weirdly paranoid about them to the point that I have a hard time focusing on my base. I feel like I'd be missing out on a significant portion of the game if I switched to Peaceful mode, just feel like I prefer Satisfactory's way of having aliens be something you have to worry about while looking for resources and slugs, but otherwise leave you alone in your base. You can just tone down or turn off biters until you feel more comfortable. I usually play with them off just because I like concentrating on building a giant factory. Nothing wrong with getting more comfortable with the building aspect before playing with them on. I think the base building part of factorio is more stuff to learn and get used to at first compared to satisfactory anyway.
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Jul 23, 2019 00:33
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My favourite setting is to turn off expansion. That way once you clear to a radius larger than your pollution cloud you don't have to think about them until you expand (or grow your production enough to grow your cloud).
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Jul 23, 2019 00:40
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Squashing Machine posted:So I've been working on getting into this game after playing a decent bit of Satisfactory, but I'm finding myself getting stressed out about potential biter attacks and shutting it off. I dealt with them pretty easily the first couple times and they didn't do too much damage, but I'm still weirdly paranoid about them to the point that I have a hard time focusing on my base. I feel like I'd be missing out on a significant portion of the game if I switched to Peaceful mode, just feel like I prefer Satisfactory's way of having aliens be something you have to worry about while looking for resources and slugs, but otherwise leave you alone in your base. I feel you, sometimes I feel like I spend more time fending off attacks than actually working on my base. Early on a few turrets surrounded with walls in select spots is enough, but it quickly ramps up into the need for a complete defensive line, which is where I tend to bog down a bit. At the core its just another production problem to solve. Automate making walls, turrets and bullets. Then build a perimeter wall and gun line. Expand out from there. It's a good reason to push for roboports and construction robots too, to both replace destroyed turrets and to copy/paste the wall, guns and belts/feed system without laboriously building the whooooole thing. Then it becomes much more hands-off. First I'll just wall off approaches, then wait for them to get torn down and I'll start building turrets in the trouble spots, repeat until the perimeter is established or you need to tear out a section to expand. Pro tier: flame throwers for days. I'm also a big fan of automatically replenishing minefields.
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Jul 23, 2019 00:40
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Squashing Machine posted:So I've been working on getting into this game after playing a decent bit of Satisfactory, but I'm finding myself getting stressed out about potential biter attacks and shutting it off. I dealt with them pretty easily the first couple times and they didn't do too much damage, but I'm still weirdly paranoid about them to the point that I have a hard time focusing on my base. I feel like I'd be missing out on a significant portion of the game if I switched to Peaceful mode, just feel like I prefer Satisfactory's way of having aliens be something you have to worry about while looking for resources and slugs, but otherwise leave you alone in your base. this is one thing that tier 1 efficiency packs are good for. they're cheap and a pair of them will knock down the pollution production of a building significantly, both its own pollution and the pollution generated by furnaces heating steam engines. don't wait til you have accumulators to lay solar panels; your steam engines will automatically scale back during the day to match how much the solar panels are providing and it can make a HUGE difference in pollution. pollution is what causes biters to attack, but it's also literally the raw material used to produce them; the more pollution hitting a nest, the more baddies it'll produce. AND, under default settings, total pollution absorbed will contribute to the evolution to stronger baddies. trees absorb a ton of pollution before dying. minimize how many healthy trees you clear. this is one nice thing about blueprints; even without construction bots you can still use em to mark what exact trees interfere with placing your stuff, so you can cut down only those and leave the rest until they're withered, gray, and dead. whenever possible, stick your steam engines and miners near forests. if there's no forests, stick them near big bodies of water. if you don't have that either, at least find some grass. if you're in the middle of nothing but desert, consider slow-rolling your early game with minimal miners & steam engines, and as much handcrafting as you can stomach. desert is the worst absorption rate of any natural terrain (paved terrain absorbs nothing at all, don't pave anything til you have a solid defense) the AI will also display some rudimentary strategy, attacking at undefended points of your base and massing up into big groups to try to saturate and overwhelm your defenses. the trick to early-game defense is to sprinkle gun turrets everywhere, and wherever they attack, don't just repair, add a few more. add a few more on top of that if they killed any of the turrets. and get lasers asap. spitters start loving up gun turrets almost as soon as they appear. minimize how many biter nests you have to kill early on; killing nests will speed up their evolution faster than anything else or just turn expansion off, or even turn off biters entirely. it's a sandbox game, do whatever's fun
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Jul 23, 2019 01:00
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Thanks guys, I'll probably futz around with the biter settings a bit and see if that helps out. The no expansion setting sounds like it might help out, sounds like it incentivizes hunting the fuckers down without declawing them completely.
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Jul 23, 2019 01:01
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Biters are extremely easy to deal with. There's an aspect of the game that probably needs a major rework : if you just aggressively clear biter nests as your pollution cloud nears them, and drop a few turrets with walls every time, it pretty much takes them out of the game. It's kinda backwards, if you're aggressive with biters they're trivial, if you let yourself be scared of them they'll have tons of bases on the edge of your pollution cloud and constantly zerg rush you. On the topic of science rates, what do experienced players usually build out for science rates in their starter bases? I always build 1/s (0.75 in practice), but now I'm wondering if the increased resource and space requirements of building out to that extent might actually slow down that phase of the game dramatically. e - also re: the idea of forced expansion : IMO the game should really not be requiring you to expand before logistic system. It's loving obnoxious building train networks and massive stations without the ability to make a building train. K8.0 fucked around with this message at 01:14 on Jul 23, 2019 |
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Jul 23, 2019 01:08
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Is there anything a new player should know before jumping into the game? I am worried about getting run over by bugs off the rip. EDIT: Also any recommended mods or anything like that? GotDonuts fucked around with this message at 01:14 on Jul 23, 2019 |
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Jul 23, 2019 01:09
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Just play the tutorial. You are going to get absolutely buttfucked by the bugs your first actual game because the first time they attack is unpredictable to new players and very strong. Don't worry about it, it's a learning process.
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Jul 23, 2019 01:11
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Alright thanks, I will try to keep that in mind. Been slowly working through the tutorial missions.
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Jul 23, 2019 01:15
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GotDonuts posted:Is there anything a new player should know before jumping into the game? I am worried about getting run over by bugs off the rip. Set your Starting Area for your map generation to Very Large. This setting controls the size of an exclusion zone where biter nests can't spawn; going Very Large usually buys me another 30ish minutes before the initial attacks, for someone who is still learning and probably won't be producing as much as early it will be longer. Just also remember to automate ammo magazines into a box so you have enough to set up some defenses when they do come.
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Jul 23, 2019 01:21
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GotDonuts posted:Alright thanks, I will try to keep that in mind. Been slowly working through the tutorial missions. Wait, are you on 0.16? Go in the game options in steam and opt into the latest beta. Finish the old tutorial missions first if you like, they're not half bad and very different to the new, incomplete tutorial.
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Jul 23, 2019 01:52
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GotDonuts posted:Is there anything a new player should know before jumping into the game? I am worried about getting run over by bugs off the rip. The biggest thing I wish I'd known at first is that not only can you throw grenades from a moving vehicle but it loving owns and you should do it a lot. Biters, trees, whatever, just do drive-bys chucking grenades at poo poo until it's dead. When you're on foot and first try em out, the grenades seem mediocre. Throw em from a moving car though and holy poo poo they're good.
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Jul 23, 2019 02:24
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chairface posted:The biggest thing I wish I'd known at first is that not only can you throw grenades from a moving vehicle but it loving owns and you should do it a lot. Biters, trees, whatever, just do drive-bys chucking grenades at poo poo until it's dead. When you're on foot and first try em out, the grenades seem mediocre. Throw em from a moving car though and holy poo poo they're good. Two explosive damage upgrades and one grenade kills trees, very nice very clearing out large forests in the earlier game.
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Jul 23, 2019 02:31
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Grenades are easily the best forest deleter until bots get fast and you have a lot of them. Early bots are painfully slow and if you don't have lot you probably want them building other poo poo. And if you don't actually want/have the ability to deal with the wood, you don't want to use bots anyway. Meanwhile, the flamethrower is fun but it leaves behind trees that you still have to destroy. Of course nukes are the best in all things, all hail the holy atom
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Jul 23, 2019 02:52
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Travic posted:My factory is coming along nicely and every time I incorporate more systems it always amazes me how perfectly different production lines mesh together. It's mostly just planning for scaling and then rebuilding everything multiple times when you realize that you didn't plan nearly enough. If you view posts by me you can find my imgur album of my 1k spm base.
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Jul 23, 2019 05:34
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GotDonuts posted:EDIT: Also any recommended mods or anything like that?
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Jul 23, 2019 06:12
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GotDonuts posted:Is there anything a new player should know before jumping into the game? I am worried about getting run over by bugs off the rip. There are mods for having a longer reach, I would never want to play without those.
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Jul 23, 2019 10:01
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Personally i like longer reach, because i play with Pymods and poo poo gets big, and i've actually taken to being in the helicopter 99% of the time now. However i don't like long reach that lets you grab over huge distances. A moderate QOL life increase is good, but huge distance stuff encourages self-defeating behavior (which i've seen youtubers organically engage in).
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Jul 23, 2019 13:40
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I prefer the long reach research mod, might be called QoL Research now. You can't reach forever far immediately, but by end game the infinite research there gives you a lot of extra range. It also has a 5% walk speed research that really adds up through the game.
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Jul 23, 2019 14:47
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