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Gadzuko posted:Eh, you could leave the design mostly as is if you just made a pump with both input and output, and a gas intake tile to connect it to. Gas goes from intake to pump, then out of pump, all using existing flow mechanics. As soon as you get one step more complicated than that (like any pipe or vent system you make in this game will) how everything should work gets very confusing and requires additional information that the game is not currently tracking. What happens if you connect another line between the intake and pump? Would the fluid only flow in the direction of the pump? What if that other line is already pressurized, how does that interact with the unpresurized gas on its way to the pump? If you have multiple intakes connected to one pump how does the game track how much suction these intakes have? The game currently makes it difficult to get stuff into pipes/vents, but once you have it in there assumes that everything can flow fine. Having a pipe running from an intake to a pump sounds simple, but you have to create some entirely new game system that causes the fluid in that pipe to function differently than anything currently in the game.
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Jul 21, 2019 18:23
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That's not really true though, at least it's not nearly as complicated as you're thinking it is. All fluids run from outputs (green) to inputs (white), this is what makes bridges so useful to controlling flow; they aren't doing anything special other than adding green/white ports to the system to better direct gas flow. The amount of gas a pump pulls in is static, up to 500 g/s of a single packet per pull. Pipes hold 1kg per packet of a single type. You simply need to make a new vent object doing the "suction" that is a flow output (green arrow icon), and run line to a new "pump" type that is flow input (white arrow icon). Everything else in the game manages fine using these systems and bridges/filters to control the flow. Like I could add what I'm describing to this system with no trouble at all, using bridges and proper routing.  It's literally just reversing the back end code of the vent/pump. The flow mechanics are the exact same as everything else, you just go from vent > pump instead of the other way around. The pump would then have a different output port, or hell you could use storage tanks as they are currently designed to do the job, you just need the new vent that pulls in fluids vs expelling them. Fluid flow in general is actually deceptively simple in practice, it just has a lot of fail states where you didn't properly order green/white ports. Any time a fluid can "see" to two different white ports from a single green port, you will have flow errors. This is exactly why bridges solve so many problems, they organize the ports so its always green > white. Green does not flow to other greens (unless it's a bridge green on a T but that's bridges 102, another day) The only issue I can think of currently is that the vent would somehow need a marker to signify its connected to the drawing device and not doing the vacuuming as soon as connected to a line (as then it could just be used as a power free pump given the simplistic flow design), but you could probably just require a specific automation signal or something in the short term, similar in theory to running power plants off smart batteries. I mean it's drifting into territory where this is the same amount of work as just building a new pump or whatever, but at the same time as a late game thing that lets you pull air via 1 tile vent vs 4 tile pump it has value none the less. Mazz fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Jul 21, 2019 |
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Jul 21, 2019 18:35
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The old water sieves must have been moved to New York City, because the air is 40 degree water right now
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Jul 21, 2019 19:41
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Fenn the Fool! posted:As soon as you get one step more complicated than that (like any pipe or vent system you make in this game will) how everything should work gets very confusing and requires additional information that the game is not currently tracking. What happens if you connect another line between the intake and pump? Would the fluid only flow in the direction of the pump? What if that other line is already pressurized, how does that interact with the unpresurized gas on its way to the pump? If you have multiple intakes connected to one pump how does the game track how much suction these intakes have? Mazz already gave a more in depth answer but it would work exactly the same as it does now, just think of the intake as the "pump" bringing stuff into the pipe and the pump functioning like an outlet vent does now. You don't have to track pressure or force of suction because the game already doesn't track those and it works fine.
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Jul 21, 2019 20:16
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Gadzuko posted:Mazz already gave a more in depth answer but it would work exactly the same as it does now, just think of the intake as the "pump" bringing stuff into the pipe and the pump functioning like an outlet vent does now. You don't have to track pressure or force of suction because the game already doesn't track those and it works fine. You and Mazz are both eliding the case where another pipe run links into your intake pipe run, or having a single pipe run split at the destination to run into two pumps, which as is would be required to use the full throughput of a gas pipe. This is not insurmountable but the fact that Klei have had the option for the entire development cycle and went with what we have instead despite it being far more limited than the real HVAC systems it references and, way worse, fairly clunky, irritating, and micro intensive to work with in the game suggests to me that they view the way things currently work as sufficient. I guess asking them directly about this and if they tried to implement the alternate system we are discussing during their initial builds would be a way to find out for sure.
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Jul 21, 2019 20:25
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LonsomeSon posted:You and Mazz are both eliding the case where another pipe run links into your intake pipe run, or having a single pipe run split at the destination to run into two pumps, which as is would be required to use the full throughput of a gas pipe. Well the big takeaway from my layout is that it would function exactly like normal on the intake end; the vent is really just a 1 tile pump that pulls in however much air and sends it down the line. The oddity is in the pump itself, it really needs only exist to control the vent's activity, it doesn't actually have to be the end point of the air cycle in the current system design, in fact in a strict sense it can't be given the existing simplicity (a bridge/white input would change airflow at will), and you're correct there it's clunky. Basically the fast answer is you just add a 1 tile "vent" pump that requires a remote "pump" building to to activate via automation or something similar. It's awkward, but works at a basic level. The longer and more correct answer probably needs to rework HVAC as you say, and is a lot less likely to see anytime soon.
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Jul 21, 2019 20:51
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Gadzuko posted:Mazz already gave a more in depth answer but it would work exactly the same as it does now, just think of the intake as the "pump" bringing stuff into the pipe and the pump functioning like an outlet vent does now. You don't have to track pressure or force of suction because the game already doesn't track those and it works fine. The problem is, if you're not tracking suction in some form, then the intake vent will start pushing gas into the pipes as soon as it's hooked up, whether or not a pump is present. It would need to be an output that only operates with the condition "when there is a pump running somewhere down the line," which is functionality that doesn't exist currently. And if it's just checking "is there a pump, yes/no" rather than calculating a numerical suction amount, then you could have one pump hooked up to 30 intake vents all pulling in at full speed, which would be pretty weird.
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Jul 21, 2019 20:52
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The fastest/quickest solution is probably just have the mini-pump handle the same 500g/s of air and just have a higher material or power cost. There's very little use for a 50 g/s pump.
Mazz fucked around with this message at 21:07 on Jul 21, 2019 |
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Jul 21, 2019 21:02
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WithoutTheFezOn posted:I think the gas pumps should be able to have “remote input”. Yeah this makes a lot of sense and now I want it too.
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Jul 21, 2019 21:14
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Just steal the fluid mechanics from Factorio and the water settling from Terraria.
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Jul 21, 2019 21:26
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Triarii posted:The problem is, if you're not tracking suction in some form, then the intake vent will start pushing gas into the pipes as soon as it's hooked up, whether or not a pump is present. It would need to be an output that only operates with the condition "when there is a pump running somewhere down the line," which is functionality that doesn't exist currently. And if it's just checking "is there a pump, yes/no" rather than calculating a numerical suction amount, then you could have one pump hooked up to 30 intake vents all pulling in at full speed, which would be pretty weird. Just simulate the negative suck particles emitted by real HVAC pumps.
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Jul 21, 2019 21:49
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Triarii posted:The problem is, if you're not tracking suction in some form, then the intake vent will start pushing gas into the pipes as soon as it's hooked up, whether or not a pump is present. It would need to be an output that only operates with the condition "when there is a pump running somewhere down the line," which is functionality that doesn't exist currently. And if it's just checking "is there a pump, yes/no" rather than calculating a numerical suction amount, then you could have one pump hooked up to 30 intake vents all pulling in at full speed, which would be pretty weird. Just put in a special 'intake pipe' that can only be built off of gas pumps, and must terminate with one on one end to be a valid build?
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Jul 21, 2019 22:44
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Still think a gas version of mopping spills is better. Much more flexible but requires dupe labor. Fair trade.
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Jul 21, 2019 23:01
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I would love that so much. Just give them a net that they can run around scopping gas up in...I hate having a teensy bit of chlorine floating around somewhere. Speaking of, I'm really liking this Rust Deoxidizer. Doesn't really need a gas pump early on, if you have Saltvine it's trivial to manage the chlorine output, and it only takes 60 W of power making it a joke to power at the start. A single smallish salt vein in a rust biome gave me 4750 kg or so, which is about 5.2 hours of non-stop running of the Deoxidizer. It's so much simpler to set up then the Electrolyzer...almost too much easier.
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Jul 22, 2019 00:09
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Faldoncow posted:I would love that so much. Just give them a net that they can run around scopping gas up in...I hate having a teensy bit of chlorine floating around somewhere. The dupes whip out their goofy little guns for everything, just have a version that sucks things up, kinda like the harvester gun.
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Jul 22, 2019 00:27
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That would work too Actually a research tab that does gun upgrades would be neat, like the gas vacuum, +1 digging, or +1 range to actions.
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Jul 22, 2019 03:46
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Triarii posted:The problem is, if you're not tracking suction in some form, then the intake vent will start pushing gas into the pipes as soon as it's hooked up, whether or not a pump is present. It would need to be an output that only operates with the condition "when there is a pump running somewhere down the line," which is functionality that doesn't exist currently. And if it's just checking "is there a pump, yes/no" rather than calculating a numerical suction amount, then you could have one pump hooked up to 30 intake vents all pulling in at full speed, which would be pretty weird. It would require some new code and new type of pipe, yeah. It's janky and not perfect but that basically describes the current air/water piping system so I'm ok with that. I did think about the 30 intake vents thing as a possible problem, but I realized that it would ultimately be self correcting because the pump could only handle x outflow per second, so if your intake vents are pulling 30x into the system it'll just back up and stop pulling more air unless you add more pumps. You just have to have a specific "intake pipe" to keep from linking an intake vent straight to a regular outflow vent and getting free movement. Like I said, janky, but workable IMO. I doubt they'll do it but it might be moddable.
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Jul 22, 2019 06:40
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So I thought more about this and probably the easiest, fastest, and most seamless way to attain what I think the ask is, would be to add another buildable with the appearance, footprint, and construction ease of a gas vent, but the cost, functionality, physical properties and hookups of a standard 2x2 pump. The problems to solve that I see and can't address myself due to never even looking into ONI mods: Can a reskin of a device into a different footprint and appearance be accomplished by mods? If so, can the gas output, power input, and whatever backend property that lets the pump interact with the local atmosphere be located on the same tile? If not make it a 2- or 3x1; this would require a little art and a compromise on the ask, though I feel a small one. As for simulating the centralized HVAC system, I have less solid ideas for that. The actual pumps are still onsite, just easier and more convenient to move around and fit into poo poo, but I do agree that graduating to building a big central air handling system would be boss. This is a reach, but an unlockable second tier of gas pipes with 2-5x throughput volume. You have another modded pump in your room-temperature oxy storage, this one with 4-10x greater throughput, delivering to your gas handling utility nodes via 'backbone' or 'gas main' pipes which distribute through normal pipes. Big question here is can a device have multiple output hookups? Multiple gas-suction input tiles so that it isn't limited to the mass per tile in the storage room?
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Jul 22, 2019 07:29
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LonsomeSon posted:So I thought more about this and probably the easiest, fastest, and most seamless way to attain what I think the ask is, would be to add another buildable with the appearance, footprint, and construction ease of a gas vent, but the cost, functionality, physical properties and hookups of a standard 2x2 pump.
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Jul 22, 2019 16:46
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Gadzuko posted:It would require some new code and new type of pipe, yeah. It's janky and not perfect but that basically describes the current air/water piping system so I'm ok with that. I did think about the 30 intake vents thing as a possible problem, but I realized that it would ultimately be self correcting because the pump could only handle x outflow per second, so if your intake vents are pulling 30x into the system it'll just back up and stop pulling more air unless you add more pumps. You just have to have a specific "intake pipe" to keep from linking an intake vent straight to a regular outflow vent and getting free movement. Like I said, janky, but workable IMO. I doubt they'll do it but it might be moddable. For this to work you'd need to code up a whole new set of pull mechanics where some inputs don't just accept inputs, they actively yank on all the pipe contents. Splicer fucked around with this message at 09:27 on Jul 23, 2019 |
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Jul 23, 2019 09:24
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So ONI steam doesn't rise to speak of? I'd just come up with a clever way to cool steam with a cooling tower that has an airflow tile halfway up it, but as far as I can tell, cool steam doesn't rise any higher than the geyser. Boo. So, what are good mid-game ways of using the runoff from a cool steam geyser? Are there some?
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Jul 23, 2019 22:14
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Arsenic Lupin posted:So ONI steam doesn't rise to speak of? I'd just come up with a clever way to cool steam with a cooling tower that has an airflow tile halfway up it, but as far as I can tell, cool steam doesn't rise any higher than the geyser. Boo. In your interactions with real life steam, it only 'rises' because it's in an atmosphere composed of other, denser gases. If the 'cooling tower' only has steam in it, the steam will (eventually) evenly occupy the entire area. Now, if you had a denser, very hot gas in the cooling tower, the steam would 'rise' quite a bit faster.
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Jul 24, 2019 11:08
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Just bought this because it is leaving EA. Is it good for going in blind or are some spoilers imperative?
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Jul 24, 2019 21:03
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Tips (these are hard rules until you know enough about the game to know why they're not hard rules):
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Jul 24, 2019 21:14
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I'd go in blind for a bit to start with at least, to have fun figuring out some stuff on your own. If you're really confused or struggling, ask for advice in the thread. There is a lot of somewhat opaque objects and gameplay, so eventually watching some youtube videos or getting more detailed info will be useful. The only 2 bits of advice I'd give to a starting player are a) Press F11 to see the rooms overlay. Rooms are enclosed areas (doors count as enclosing) that give morale bonuses if you meet the rooms requirements. b) Your people (dupes) will need toilets + sinks otherwise they'll make messes all over. Prioritze getting an outhouse up quickly. Everything else can be experimented with as you go.
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Jul 24, 2019 21:14
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I wouldn’t agree with no new dupes until cycle 40. I might go with no new dupes until you have some food planted, but on the other hand that fourth one seems to make a big difference early, since much of the time you’ll have one constantly researching and another fairly often running the power wheel.
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Jul 24, 2019 21:20
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ONI certainly has some funky mechanics. Found a link to this thread: https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/91094-the-mystery-about-pump-range/ , and the pumps still work the same way. You can pump magma with a mini pump without the pump touching the magma..... Bug reported it but who knows what the gently caress the devs are actually intending. https://forums.kleientertainment.com/klei-bug-tracker/oni/pump-detectabsorb-area-not-the-same-r20802/ Blue is detect area, red is absorb area.   Also found this thread in general discussion, which seems to be a metal dupe with doors.. https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/109272-its-raining-tacos-metal-printing-pure-alchemy-in-its-true-form/ And this thread, which talks about how to convert any gas to any other gas at a 1:1 ratio... https://forums.kleientertainment.co...-to-another-11/ And the devs say the game is 'ready for release' and they're 'releasing it on the 30th'. Right.
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Jul 24, 2019 21:28
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I don't think a bunch of really weird edge cases that the average player won't stumble upon mean the game isn't ready for release.
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Jul 24, 2019 22:30
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Communist Walrus posted:I don't think a bunch of really weird edge cases that the average player won't stumble upon mean the game isn't ready for release. Looks like they fixed one of them just now. quote:Fix bug where gasses could merge and convert types if two gasses tried moving into a vacuum cell on the same tick.
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Jul 24, 2019 22:47
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Lmao the emojis on that part of the changelog sure are saying something.
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Jul 24, 2019 23:06
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quote:Rust Deoxydizer outputs chlorine in gas form Ugh, this one is going to be a pain I bet. I kind of liked the chlorine being liquid initially...made it easy to 'catch' it.
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Jul 24, 2019 23:14
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Firos posted:Lmao the emojis on that part of the changelog sure are saying something. As someone who almost never uses emojis.. what are they saying?
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Jul 25, 2019 00:09
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Chin Strap posted:Just bought this because it is leaving EA. Is it good for going in blind or are some spoilers imperative? WithoutTheFezOn posted:I wouldn’t agree with no new dupes until cycle 40. I might go with no new dupes until you have some food planted, but on the other hand that fourth one seems to make a big difference early, since much of the time you’ll have one constantly researching and another fairly often running the power wheel. insta posted:Tips (these are hard rules until you know enough about the game to know why they're not hard rules): these are good, don't feel like you've failed if you don't hit those cycle counts exactly, it just gets a little messy if you don't get those things up and running, but your colony having crises and then trying to fix those crises is half the fun of this game. don't feel like you need to expand past a small number of dupes for a while. the reason they say no new dupes until cycle 40, etc., is because every new dupe is another mouth to feed, more water consumed, more oxygen consumed (which means more water consumed), more co2 exhaled, etc. having more dupes may make things faster, but it also means you need to ramp up life support to sustain them. it also isn't too bad to have more dupes than you can support anyway, since they'll die off and you'll be back to a manageable number! just be very vigilant about issues with your food supply and oxygen supply, your plants may stop growing for any number of reasons (atmosphere, temperature, etc.) and the next thing you know your dupes are starving, there's no new food queued up (it takes a decent amount of cycles to start up again), and everyone is going berserk -- that can be pretty hard to recover from.
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Jul 25, 2019 00:12
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Ambaire posted:As someone who almost never uses emojis.. what are they saying? As a professional software engineer AND emoji user 😂😂😂, I can translate. They were saying: This was horrible to track down and fix. My life is hard. Why did I decide to work in games? Why didn’t I just work for LinkedIn or something making boring business software? Where did everything go wrong in my life?
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Jul 25, 2019 00:29
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Don't print dupes just cause you can. Play the game.
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Jul 25, 2019 01:52
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Or set a personal rule to take a dupe every time one is offered, and deal with it.  (Don’t do that, it would be horrendous).
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Jul 25, 2019 04:05
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Chin Strap posted:Just bought this because it is leaving EA. Is it good for going in blind or are some spoilers imperative? Heat is The Enemy. Forever. Unless you're playing Rime. Don't play Rime at first.
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Jul 25, 2019 04:30
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User0015 posted:Heat is The Enemy. Forever. Conversely, play the ever living gently caress out of Rime, finding something mundane as a cool steam vent becomes a wholly different experience (vs finding a CO2 geyser which becomes a cruel joke)
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Jul 25, 2019 04:41
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User0015 posted:Heat is The Enemy. Forever. Alternately, do play Rime, but try to research insulated tiles soonish and don't dig into <10C areas until then. Make a box around your base at the 10C mark, with a couple areas on the sides to go out, and don't bring colder materials into the base. The important thing is to isolate your mealwood farm. If worse comes to worse, you can put space heaters on the farm to heat it back up to a safer temperature.
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Jul 25, 2019 12:41
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Well I think the argument with Rime is it’s going to teach you a ton of things that don’t carry over to pretty much any other map. Probably best to start hot and then go cold or you’ll have basically every system in the game backwards. Also once you get past the not dying phase generally cold is more difficult to add than heat, since anything powered becomes a boon and not a negative.
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Jul 25, 2019 13:00
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