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I'm sure I was overestimating how long it would take me to do it, but also I can't help but think that if I don't put a bunch of effort into making the UI nice and everything really polished then they wouldn't "accept" it either. I don't know what's a reasonable amount of effort to put into those kinds of projects. I don't know, I'm just convinced I'm not a very strong developer and I have a hard time starting new projects because every job I've ever had I'm just getting thrown into well-established code bases. I haven't created a full blown new website since college, and then half the frameworks that are popular today either didn't exist or I simply didn't use it. So I'd probably need to spend a fair amount of time simply figuring out what to do in order to simply get started.
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Aug 7, 2019 20:11
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I don't do take homes as I see no reason to add 3 - 10 hours to the interview process for no reason. I have a job at a FAANG that didn't require it, as I don't believe any of them do, and have interviewed at a significant number of top companies none of which required it. I'd consider it if I was really interested in the company and it was reasonable, but have never run across that. I do consider it a minor red flag as I think it lowers the pool of high quality candidates.
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Aug 7, 2019 20:12
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Keetron posted:I do only java development and can set up a runnable Spring Boot micro service that responds to an http get request in 10 minutes. I mean, yeah, I can do this too. Would you do this if you were trying to emulate a "real world" project, though? How long to set up a database, put together a few models & relations, get a JS front end rolling?
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Aug 7, 2019 20:30
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ultrafilter posted:What would convince you? Nothing. My belief that the market is oversaturated is not based on logic and reasoning someone said to me on a forum. It's based on my own observation. Right now it's summertime where I live. It's 100F outside almost every day. There is nothing you can say to me on this forum that will convince me that it's not actually super hot every day. I still welcome you to try though. My purpose for posting here is to convince you all that oversaturation is the explanation that makes the most sense for the job market of today. I think everyone who believes the market is not oversaturated did not come to this belief by their own observations. They came to that belief by reading post on internet forums that say there is a programmer shortage. I'm here to convince those people that there is a more logical explanation for things like bullshit take home projects and ghostings, and that explanation is oversaturation.
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Aug 7, 2019 20:31
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School of How posted:My purpose for posting here is to convince you all that oversaturation is the explanation that makes the most sense for the job market of today. Well I guess you're failing at that like the rest of your life then, good job. You can gently caress off now.
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Aug 7, 2019 20:40
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rotor posted:the market is oversaturated (with bad engineers)
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Aug 7, 2019 20:51
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School of How posted:There is nothing you can say to me on this forum that will convince me Come off it. Isn't there a codebase somewhere that needs rewriting? Or have all the employers in your area gotten word that you're a no-hire?
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Aug 7, 2019 20:53
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School of How posted:My purpose for posting here is to convince you all that oversaturation is the explanation that makes the most sense for the job market of today. Then bugger off.
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Aug 7, 2019 21:03
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School of How posted:Nothing. My belief that the market is oversaturated is not based on logic and reasoning someone said to me on a forum. It's based on my own observation. Oh good, someone who is utterly convinced they are right and cannot possibly be convinced of anything. You're not here to participate in conversation, you're here to bestow your brilliant vision upon the blind. As should be quite evident by now, we are not remotely interested in listening to you, so kindly gently caress off. Meanwhile it's pretty clear that the rest of us should add you to our ignore lists.
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Aug 7, 2019 21:08
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quote:I think everyone who believes the market is not oversaturated did not come to this belief by their own observations. My own observation of my own experience well as a half dozen of my dev friends who've all gotten new jobs in the past 6 months is that we've all had nearly 100% interview:offer ratios for senior positions at successful, established companies with generous comp packages. Based on your own comments and faulty logic, that means the market is not saturated. But surely it's everyone else that is wrong, not you. I'm convinced you're just trolling at this point and not interested in improving your approach or attitude.
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Aug 7, 2019 21:12
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School of How posted:It's 100F outside almost every day. There is nothing you can say to me on this forum that will convince me that it's not actually super hot every day. I think you'll find that number comes from the National Weather Service and so must have just been pulled out of some bureaucrat's rear end 
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Aug 7, 2019 21:13
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:You're not here to participate in conversation, you're here to bestow your brilliant vision upon the blind. I genuinely hope how!! finds what they are looking for. When I first started doing this I thought working with hypercompetent jackass cowboys would be grand, it took me years to be disabused of that notion. I can't wait to see that basic lesson filtered through whatever ego-preserving sieve has generated these gems.
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Aug 7, 2019 21:36
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You’ve absolutely convinced us that software engineering is over saturated just like coal mining and museum collections management where two masters degrees aren’t enough to get you a $45k / year job during the longest economic expansion in history in a high cost of living area chock full of dozens of well known institutions and you need to wait 6 months to get through an interview process on average and where half the people that trained for it are literally waiting tables because it was less stress and better pay. And we don’t need to talk about the state of coal mining jobs. gently caress off, you don’t know oversaturation of a labor market is
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Aug 7, 2019 21:39
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edit: nvm
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Aug 7, 2019 21:49
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School of How posted:There is nothing you can say to me on this forum that will convince me that it's not actually super hot every day. I still welcome you to try though. This is part of what makes you an rear end in a top hat, because you initially invited people to try to change your mind about the job market without revealing that nothing would actually change it. This is yet another thing you do that might be being noticed by interviewers and making them decide you're not worth it.
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Aug 7, 2019 21:57
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Keetron posted:I do only java development and can set up a runnable Spring Boot micro service that responds to an http get request in 10 minutes. I can probably do the same for rails, but...really, who the hell spins up new projects that often that they can get something new spun up immediately?
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Aug 7, 2019 22:01
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Like, you are what you eat. If your day to day job involves feature development on an existing codebase, it’s not so strange that you’d have to stop and think a bit when starting something greenfield.
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Aug 7, 2019 22:02
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Pollyanna posted:I can probably do the same for rails, but...really, who the hell spins up new projects that often that they can get something new spun up immediately? I mean, I've been working with greenfields for the last 2 years, so I feel like I've created more new projects than most...
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Aug 7, 2019 22:04
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In related news, I'm starting a new job next month. It was the first time I have ever been properly recruited, as in they just wanted me, and made a whole position just for me. Feels nice. (By Hows logic, do I even exist?)
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Aug 7, 2019 22:05
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No 
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Aug 7, 2019 22:06
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it's me i'm the dev who does not realize that interview processes are usually not be the same for employees with 2 years or fewer of experience and devs with 10 years behind them
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Aug 7, 2019 22:21
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I do think the junior/senior gap can be difficult to understand. I worked at One company for 7 years and sorta skipped all the questions and reflections around that point, i was definitely junior on the way in and definitely senior on the way out. One of the considerations when looking at a senior resume is if they have 10 years of experience or one year of experience 10 times. I've talked with folks who were in the trenches at some point, but not in the last 5 years, and it's sorta painful to get them to think through the day to day of an IC. Anyway, if someone came in and bragged about this schedule: School of How posted:Does anybody here work a job with minimal work hours? My current gig is the best, I basically come in every Monday through Thursday at 2PM, and leave by 5PM. Basically a 12 hour work week. I've been doing this for the past 2.5 years or so. Putting that aside, let's consider the other devs at this job and the simple process by which they were selected: School of How posted:Most programmers can't close a single ticket unless you give them one week or more to do it. My boss can come to me with a problem, and I can usually get it done within 10 or 15 minutes, and that includes testing and deployment. Is it possible to find a job that where I can come and go as I please as long as I get all work done?
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Aug 7, 2019 22:47
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Do I interview badly? No, it is the employers that are wrong.
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Aug 7, 2019 22:47
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CPColin posted:This is part of what makes you an rear end in a top hat, because you initially invited people to try to change your mind about the job market without revealing that nothing would actually change it. This is yet another thing you do that might be being noticed by interviewers and making them decide you're not worth it. Lets summarize the arguments this thread has produced against the idea of oversaturation: * I'm an incel * I'm an rear end in a top hat * I'm terrible on teams * I'm an incompetent programmer None of these are true. Therefore none of these "arguments" are convincing me of anything. If someone has an actual argument, I'm willing to hear them out. What it's going to take for me to convince you that oversaturation is true?
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Aug 7, 2019 22:53
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lifg posted:In related news, I'm starting a new job next month. It was the first time I have ever been properly recruited, as in they just wanted me, and made a whole position just for me. Feels nice. That must means the market for that position is ideally saturated 
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Aug 7, 2019 22:55
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School of How posted:Lets summarize the arguments this thread has produced against the idea of oversaturation: Maybe your boss just picks the silly window-dressing problems for you and has short-changed you out of the potential growth from those 12 hours a week.
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Aug 7, 2019 22:58
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Explain how an oversaturated market keeps having ever-inflating wages where people hop jobs and get double-digit percentages raises time and time again.
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Aug 7, 2019 22:58
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School of How posted:* I'm an incel well the thing is we don't really believe that last part. edit: it may also be that you just interview really really badly which I would 100% believe
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Aug 7, 2019 23:00
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School of How posted:Lets summarize the arguments this thread has produced against the idea of oversaturation: How, what is your take on mentoring and how do you normally go about it? I'm overtaken by curiosity
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Aug 7, 2019 23:01
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School of How posted:Lets summarize the arguments this thread has produced against the idea of oversaturation: I didn't make a comment on oversaturation; I made a comment on why you're not getting hired. School of How posted:What it's going to take for me to convince you that oversaturation is true? I'm not the one demanding that people change my mind.
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Aug 7, 2019 23:04
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Hiring is actually hard, interviewing is actually hard, you have an unpleasant personality, you are not actually an attractive candidate for most positions, you are turning down potential employers early on in the process in a really weird way, this is a discussion thread and not a debate
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Aug 7, 2019 23:04
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School of How posted:Lets summarize the arguments this thread has produced against the idea of oversaturation: "You made a statement in public for all to hear. Are you unable to defend the statements you make? Or simply unwilling to have a reasonable discussion?"
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Aug 7, 2019 23:08
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"School of How" posted:What it's going to take for me to convince you that oversaturation is true? If the root matter for the past 4 pages is entirely the definition of “oversaturated” we may be able to explain that part of your problem is that your definitions of something fairly straightforward to others may not align with which is a massive issue that has nothing to do with intelligence but is a significant impediment in a professional or even personal situation. So far, evidence leans toward you being completely conceited and blaming others for problems that may originate from your agency. This falls closely inline with the meta-analysis by incels, white supremacists, and a host of other groups not known for the most rational, evidence-based thinking that hopefully forms the foundation of any engineering career.
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Aug 7, 2019 23:09
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rotor posted:edit: it may also be that you just interview really really badly which I would 100% believe "Well i shouldn't even HAVE to interview!! And I wouldn't if the field wasn't oversaturated!!!!" ok so everyone interviews, and the interviews are harder the higher you go. C-levels often spend literally months in interviews. If you want to just walk into a job without a bunch of hassle you have to either know someone or find a pizza place that's hiring delivery drivers.
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Aug 7, 2019 23:13
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rotor posted:If you want to just walk into a job without a bunch of hassle you have to either know someone or find a pizza place that's hiring delivery drivers. "But I walked into my junior position 10 years ago!!" well yeah because no one spends a bunch of time on interviewing junior engineers because they're fuckin junior engineers Unfortunately, that door is closed to you now because if you interview for a junior engineer position with 10 years of experience everyone will look at you funny, and they'll be right to do so.
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Aug 8, 2019 00:07
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Last job search I applied to only one job and got it, thus the market is not saturated, qed. 
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Aug 8, 2019 00:12
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I think we should stop engaging how :^)
Pie Colony fucked around with this message at 00:19 on Aug 8, 2019 |
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Aug 8, 2019 00:17
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Programmer market is oversaturated (You literally can't) Change my mind
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Aug 8, 2019 00:39
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I am late to the discussion about take homes, but I recently did one that was extremely reasonable. The general pitch was "You can send us some code you are proud of, if we feel we get good signal from that we'll skip this section, if not, you can still do the take home. We ask that you spend approximately 3 hours on the take home." They sent me the specs, I had a working prototype in 45 minutes, and had it somewhat sane, documented, and tested in almost exactly 3 hours. I tend to feel that I am a relatively slow programmer, so their expectations seemed very reasonable. I seem to be in the minority, but I actually like take homes. Every company that has given me a take home has emphasized that I should not bother spending more than 2-4 hours on it and at that point just turn in what I have. Most even specify to make sure to leave time for documentation, because that is also part of the 2-4 hours and not something to do after. If I ever received one where it seemed unlikely that I could get it done in that amount of time, I'd either put 3 hours into it and call it a day, or just turn them down. Not a big deal.
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Aug 8, 2019 00:43
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necrobobsledder posted:By showing that we have the same dynamics of employment to known industries that are over saturated The primary effect of oversaturation is increased competition for jobs. Salary has nothing to do with it. It is very obvious to anyone applying to jobs in this industry today that the competition has been greatly increased. In non-oversaturated labor markets, there is very little competition. The interview is only to check that you have the basic qualifications. An example of this is a fulfillment center. I worked at one of those places as a summer job about 15 years ago. Pretty much everyone that applied was offered a job. The interview consisted of asking the candidate if they can speak and understand english and if they can lift 50 pounds. Anyone who answered "yes" to both questions was offered a job. There was no competition between candidates, because everyone that applied was given a job. There was enough jobs to go around for everyone. In an oversaturated market, not only do you have to prove that you have the basic qualifications for the job, but there is another bar that you have to clear a second bar that is completely subjective and mostly impossible to define. I'm sure there's been some interviews that I've failed completely because I'm not an anime fanatic or something like that. When the market is oversaturated, companies get to choose whoever they want and they can be as picky as they like. If they want their idea candidate to be an asian female with blue hard that enjoys anime, they have the luxury of rejecting anyone that doesn't fit that exact mold until they find an exact match, while ignore everyone else. In an undersaturated market, that wouldn't be possible. In my last round of phone interviews I did back in May-June of this year, I developed the habit of asking how many people the company has interviewed for that job when they ask "Do you have any questions for us?". Every time I ask that question, they always tell me a large number like 15 or 30, and one time they told me "This position has been open for at least a year and we've interviewed an uncountable number of candidates". Not once have I been the first person they've interviewed. I think the smallest number I've ever heard has been 5. In a truly undersaturated market, it would be very common that I'd bn the first or maybe second person interviewed for the job. I also often ask "Why did you reject the previous candidate for this job?". I'm always given a wishy washy answer. It's usually something like "we felt they weren't a cultural fit". If I then ask "what made them not a cultural fit?", the answer would be something like "we just felt that way". If programmers were actually scarce, rejections would be scarce, and only for a very good reason. Rejections for wishy-washy reasons like "they weren't a cultural fit" are proof that the market is oversaturated.
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Aug 8, 2019 01:08
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