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Is there a good write up/video on why Manga is outselling Marvel & DC? I've tried to look for one but they all seem very chuddy. Or can someone in this tread give a decent answer?
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Aug 8, 2019 13:15
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This is more data than analysis, but it's a pretty comprehensive look at the 2018 American market: https://www.comicsbeat.com/tilting-at-windmills-274-looking-at-bookscan-for-2018/ (Tldr: Scholastic is winning.)
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Aug 8, 2019 14:55
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Manga companies were proactive getting into book stores with content that appealed to kids and women. Mainstream comics stayed targeting adult men in specialty shops (and still largely do (canceling monthly books that would sell well in trades, eg)). The companies that targeted new audiences are being rewarded with a growing base that is much larger than that for superhero books. There's a reason Scholastic is killing it and every book publishers is trying to break into the comics market.
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Aug 8, 2019 15:02
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You also get like three to five to ten times as much comic book for the same price when you buy manga. No one wants to pay 5 bucks for a comic issue anymore. Even ten-fifteen for a wafer thin trade is ridiculous to me anymore. Look at how huge those new 20th Century Boys volumes are.
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Aug 8, 2019 16:18
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I don't know if it's as simple as "Manga is outselling Marvel and DC", Manga is outselling Marvel and DC. According to Hibbs's Bookscan analysis, the calculated retail value of all of the manga sold through bookstores is about $36M. That means that manga accounts for about 22% of the comics sold in bookstores. "Western publishers" account for most of the rest, and Marvel and DC both only account for about 10% of that, so about $13M apiece. The total bookstore market for comics in 2018 was about $166,000,000 in retail sales. Meanwhile according to ICV2, the total North American Comic market is around a billion dollars, most of which isn't covered in BookScan. The billion dollar mark is combining estimates from bookstores, digital sales, crowdfunding, the direct market, etc. so it's not entirely clear where all of this falls on the "Marvel and DC" vs "Manga" spectrum (a lot of it is neither) but one of the numbers we do know is that Diamond reported sales of about $517M in comics/graphic novel sales to comic shops in 2018. Out of that $517M, the dollar market share (across comics and graphic novels) was dominated in comic shops by Marvel and DC, who combined to account for 68% of that $517M, or around $350,000,000. Viz was the top manga publisher, at 1.22%. So on a pure "dollars made" level -- not accounting for value-per-page, number of actual readers, demographics of said readers, people sitting on stacks of unsold Doomsday Clock #1s, etc -- Marvel and DC both sold more comics individually through Diamond/comic shops than are covered on the entire Bookscan list. Granted, far more individual copies of stuff like Dog Boy or Raina's OGNs were sold than any individual copy of a Marvel or DC book, so by that standard there are some comics (not manga, but not Marvel/DC) that are selling better than any superhero comics. But this is a complicated question of how you measure anything. It's also worth noting in terms of industry trends that Manga has had some major ups and downs in terms of readership/market in the United States in the past 10-15 years and isn't some simple narrative of "more and more people are reading manga!" and the same can be said for 'real' book publishers getting into comics; Scholastic is killing it in terms of being the company that got Bone into the mainstream and they hitched their wagon to Raina Telgemeier's star but outside of those two people they have... Amulet sells pretty well, I think? There have also been a ton of "real publishers doing graphic novels!" pushes in the past 10-15 years, with some big successes and a whole lot of books that are now out of print and shuttered/combined imprints. A lot of the narrative here sounds like it's straight out of 2006 or something. Edge & Christian fucked around with this message at 16:39 on Aug 8, 2019 |
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Aug 8, 2019 16:36
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Edge & Christian posted:I don't know if it's as simple as "Manga is outselling Marvel and DC", Manga is outselling Marvel and DC. According to Hibbs's Bookscan analysis, the calculated retail value of all of the manga sold through bookstores is about $36M. That means that manga accounts for about 22% of the comics sold in bookstores. "Western publishers" account for most of the rest, and Marvel and DC both only account for about 10% of that, so about $13M apiece. The total bookstore market for comics in 2018 was about $166,000,000 in retail sales. i dunno, this sounds like you did research, what if instead i just read this colin spacetwinks tweet thread that just confirms what i already thought was the situation?
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Aug 8, 2019 17:26
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That's some excellent information, thanks very much to everyone. Being in the UK I have no real knowledge of the US comic scene and how they sell, it was very informative. Question. Which writer for the big two has written the most consecutive issues of the same title?
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Aug 8, 2019 19:31
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bessantj posted:That's some excellent information, thanks very much to everyone. Being in the UK I have no real knowledge of the US comic scene and how they sell, it was very informative. Bendis did 111 issues of USM or something.
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Aug 8, 2019 19:47
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I think it’s Slott on Amazing Spider-Man.
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Aug 8, 2019 19:48
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bessantj posted:That's some excellent information, thanks very much to everyone. Being in the UK I have no real knowledge of the US comic scene and how they sell, it was very informative. I think they gave Bendis a plaque for breaking a record on Avengers. Actually, it's just for a long time writing the same comic. Don't know the record. https://ifanboy.com/articles/marvel-honors-bendis-with-plaque-for-eight-years-of-avengers/
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Aug 8, 2019 19:48
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bessantj posted:That's some excellent information, thanks very much to everyone. Being in the UK I have no real knowledge of the US comic scene and how they sell, it was very informative. Brian Michael Bendis and Mark Bagley have the longest Writer/Artist pairing with Ultimate Spider-Man (which didn't have a number reset until after Bagley left the book). Otherwise, probably Claremont, he wrote 185 consecutive issues of Uncanny X-Men, or if you count when the title (mostly) stays the same but the reset the number, Bendis wrote well over 200 issues of Ultimate Spider-Man.
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Aug 8, 2019 19:52
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Open Marriage Night posted:I think it’s Slott on Amazing Spider-Man. Slott just has the record for most issues of Amazing Spider-Man.
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Aug 8, 2019 19:53
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Rhyno posted:Bendis did 111 issues of USM or something. Peter David wrote Hulk for 12 years I think
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Aug 8, 2019 20:20
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El Gallinero Gros posted:Peter David wrote Hulk for 12 years I think But with different artists. That 111 issues is the longest pairing of a writer and artist. If you count all of Ultimate Spider-Man through it's various renumberings then Bendis wrote it from October 2000 until June 2015.
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Aug 8, 2019 20:25
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bessantj was asking about the longest writer so PAD might be the right answer yeah?
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Aug 8, 2019 20:26
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Rhyno posted:bessantj was asking about the longest writer so PAD might be the right answer yeah? Claremont wrote for 16 years on Uncanny. That's the most at Marvel. Bendis wrote more issues in his time just because it came out more frequently. For a long time it was twice monthly.
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Aug 8, 2019 20:32
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X-O posted:Claremont wrote for 16 years on Uncanny. That's the most at Marvel. Bendis wrote more issues in his time just because it came out more frequently. For a long time it was twice monthly. Oh yeah, I always get stuck on Claremont because I think about when he came back to the book for a minute and mentally disqualify him for some reason. Probably because of the Psylocke bullshit.
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Aug 8, 2019 20:46
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Bendis and Bagley did 111 issues, but since so many of them double shipped they were on the book together for just under seven years. Lee and Kirby's Fantastic Four run went for 101 issues, from 1961 to 1970 so it was technically a longer run, timewise. Those are pretty obviously the undisputed champs for writer/artist pairings Though since the question was about writers, not artists, Lee actually wrote the first 114 consecutive issues of FF, and Bendis continued to write Ultimate Spider-Man until the first series ended with issue #133. But if you ignore renumbering, he continued to write Ultimate Spider-Man for two hundred consecutive issues, and then wrote forty issues of Miles Morales in the main Marvel Universe after until that (renumbered, combining all of Bendis's issues) book hit issue #240. Which is probably the modern record, if you ignore the renumbering. Claremont's run from Uncanny X-Men #94-280 is probably the other big one, and if you factor in all of the mini-series/New Mutants/etc. he wrote concurrently to UXM he definitely broke 240 issues of X-Books from 1975-1991 or whatever. If you combine all of Bendis's Spider-Man books into one long run, he wrote [Ultimate] Spider-Man from 2000 to early 2018, just about as long as Claremont's first run on X-Men. Peter David on the Incredible Hulk for a really long time, but there were some fill-in issues: he wrote 328, 331–359, 361–467, which spans 139 issues, which is a little longer than Bendis's USM run if you don't count retitled/renumbered runs. But given the fill-in issues, David's longest unbroken streak was only 106, or I guess 107 since all Marvel books had fill-in "-1" issues during that final run, and David wrote the Hulk one. Dan Slott took over as the "main" writer of Amazing Spider-Man with #647 (after being part of the rotating Brand New Day writer's room for a bunch of issues earlier) and wrote a more-than-once-a-month Spider-Man book from early 2011 to mid 2018, which by Marvel's legacy numbering is 153 issues (plus tie-in mini-series, .1 issues, etc. etc.) All of the ancillary stuff might push him over 200 Spider-Man issues, but there were a lot of co-writers for stretches there, which is another asterisk for Slott. A couple of names that haven't been mentioned yet is Chuck Dixon, who wrote the first 100 issues of the first Tim Drake Robin series, and Larry Hama who had a few fill-ins (like PAD on Hulk) but still wrote nearly 150 (out of 155) issues of the original 1982 GI Joe series. None of this is factoring in non-Marvel/DC books like Cerebus, Savage Dragon, Usagi Yojimbo, etc.
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Aug 8, 2019 20:55
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Bendis' full Spider-Man run beginning to end through all the re-numberings was I think. Ultimate Spider-Man 1-160, 1/2 Ultimate Spider-Man Annual 1-3 Ultimate Spider-Man Super Special Ultimate Spider-Man Requiem 1-2 Ultimate Comics Spider-Man 1-28, 16.1 Cataclysm - Ultimate Spider-Man 1-3 Ultimate Spider-Man 200 Miles Morales Ultimate Spider-Man 1-12 Spider-Man v3 1-21 Spider-Man 234-240 October 2000-July 2018 So it ends on issue 240 and it was actually 240 issues. X-O fucked around with this message at 21:28 on Aug 8, 2019 |
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Aug 8, 2019 21:26
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So there have been quite a few big runs in Marvel/DC. I know people have done 300+ issues of their own comic for other imprints and however many One Punch is currently up to but Marvel/DC seem to have a quicker turn over. Related questions, is there a writer who is excellent for a short story say 6-12 issues but beyond that their stories really suffer? Which artist has worked longest for Marvel/DC?
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Aug 8, 2019 22:35
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There's an asterisk attached but in terms of doing the bulk of their career for Marvel, I think Mark Bagley has to take it in terms of active artists. He won the talent search that spun out of The Official Marvel Try-Out Book in 1984, and starting in the summer of 1987 started getting monthly work. As best as I can tell he worked exclusively for Marvel until 2008, when he went to DC to draw all 52 issues of the weekly Trinity book with Kurt Busiek. He did about twenty other issues worth of art for DC (Batman, JLA, and some other books) but was back doing one or more books a month for Marvel by the middle of 2011 and has been back with Marvel ever since. So Bagley has been at Marvel from 1987-2008 and 2011-present. I can't really think of anyone else who comes close. That's 21 years for the first run, and another 8-9 years in his current run. John Romita Jr. probably has the actual actively-pencilling longevity record, working only almost exclusively from 1977 to 2008 (he did a four issue Image mini-series in 2004 but still put out nine issues of Amazing Spider-Man and two issues of Wolverine the same year.) Depending on how you want to count the initial Kick-rear end mini-series that were published by Marvel under the Icon banner, he continued to work exclusively for them until 2014, when he jumped to DC to work on Superman with Geoff Johns. John Buscema started drawing Marvel books regularly in 1967, and doesn't appear to have drawn anything (besides a few pin-ups/commercial art) for anyone but Marvel until 2001. Sal Buscema and John Romita Sr. also were mostly/exclusively Marvel for around thirty years or so, I'm pretty sure. I don't know what portion of that time Romita Jr. spent a less a monthly artist and more a traffic manager/editor. John Buscema was averaging at least a book a month from 1967 into 1994 or so, which is probably the longest unbroken streak.
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Aug 8, 2019 23:07
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X-O posted:Bendis' full Spider-Man run beginning to end through all the re-numberings was I think. What about Ultimate Six?
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Aug 9, 2019 00:10
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bessantj posted:Is there a good write up/video on why Manga is outselling Marvel & DC? I've tried to look for one but they all seem very chuddy. Or can someone in this tread give a decent answer? Manga hasn't been outselling western comics for like 10 years. There was a manga boom back in the early 2000s, then the bubble burst, and now it's over. Kinda like what happened to comics in the 90s, but manga sales weren't as fueled by the speculator market so I don't think a single manga issue sold like X-men #1 1991 or even close to it. If you're in specific social media bubbles it can seem like no one talks about Batman ever but everyone is always talking about My Big Boob Stepsister Needs to Cool It, which can lead to a very distorted impression of the popularity of comics vs manga. Of course this doesn't factor in the international market outside of North America or Anime vs western animation, but I feel pretty confident in saying manga is not the ultra-popular rampaging monster that the Big Two are struggling to keep up with that it used to be. Open Marriage Night posted:I think it’s Slott on Amazing Spider-Man. Nope, he fell just short of beating Bendis and had a whine about it on social media. Lurdiak fucked around with this message at 02:35 on Aug 9, 2019 |
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Aug 9, 2019 02:30
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Lurdiak posted:
As someone whose opinion of Bendis waxed and wained over the years, I'm really happy he's written more Spider-Man than Dan Slott.
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Aug 9, 2019 02:43
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I’d like to see numbers on the European comic market. The numbers for asterix are staggering. Like, in the millions, but that’s obviously an exception. Lucky Luke volumes seem to be about 500k, Blake and Mortimer or Thorgal closer to 200k, and then it quickly tails off in the 5 digit range. Considering most books will only get 1-2 volumes per year, that means even lower selling comics will outsell them over the course of the year (but price is a factor there too, and you’re not allowed to discount off book msrp in France). Manga do really well over there too, better than American comics. It’s such a weirdly different market.
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Aug 9, 2019 03:55
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Lurdiak posted:Manga hasn't been outselling western comics for like 10 years. There was a manga boom back in the early 2000s, then the bubble burst, and now it's over. Kinda like what happened to comics in the 90s, but manga sales weren't as fueled by the speculator market so I don't think a single manga issue sold like X-men #1 1991 or even close to it. Manga hasn't accounted for more than 30% of bookstore sales since 2012, though that's less because of a huge growth in superhero comics sales through bookstores -- though generally easily marketable books that coincide with films like Deadpool and Infinity Gauntlet and Black Panther and etc. do pretty well -- and more because of the rise of kids/YA books that are comics/comics-adjacent like Dog Man, Dork Diaries, Big Nate, and Raina Telgemeier's transformation into the modern day Judy Blume. Though again, 2018 was the biggest year on record for Bookscan comics -- 11.7 million books sold for a total of $166M in revenue. According to Diamond's figures, in 2018 they sold $517M worth of comics and graphic novels to stores. $348M of that was monthly floppies, which means there were just about as many "graphic novels" ($169M worth) sold in comic shops as in bookstores, and there were some non-superhero/genre comics (I'm including stuff like Saga, Walking Dead, Paper Girls, Star Wars, etc.) in Diamond's Top GN list, the only manga-ish ones to crack the Top 100 were: #47) My Hero Academia v1 #64) Legend of Korra v3 #96) Lumberjanes v1 The next highest manga was first volume of One Punch Man that came in at #117, sandwiched between Hawkeye vs. Deadpool and DC Meets Looney Tunes. quote:Of course this doesn't factor in the international market outside of North America or Anime vs western animation, but I feel pretty confident in saying manga is not the ultra-popular rampaging monster that the Big Two are struggling to keep up with that it used to be.
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Aug 9, 2019 04:08
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Edge & Christian posted:in Diamond's Top GN list, the only manga-ish ones to crack the Top 100 were: I'm kind of curious what your criteria is here-- I get how Legend of Korra is definitely inspired by manga and anime, but from my limited exposure to Lumberjanes I don't really see it?
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Aug 9, 2019 04:24
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I can’t believe y’all are talking about epic runs without mentioning Mark Gruenwald on Captain America. At 137 issues, he’s not number one, but he’s way up there without any renumberings making things harder to judge
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Aug 9, 2019 05:34
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And then Liefeld’s first issue killed him 
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Aug 9, 2019 05:45
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Archyduchess posted:I'm kind of curious what your criteria is here-- I get how Legend of Korra is definitely inspired by manga and anime, but from my limited exposure to Lumberjanes I don't really see it? 1) If it's coming out of Marvel or DC, it's a superhero book even if it has some sort of non-superhero elements/market appeal (Ms. Marvel, Squirrel Girl, Runaways, Preacher, Swamp Thing, etc.) 2) If it's a book in a sci-fi/fantasy/action genre by creators who made their name in superheroes, it's still basically superheroes (Hellboy, Deadly Class, Walking Dead, Saga, Monstress, Paper Girls, Wicked & Divine, Criminal, Southern Bastards... basically all of the Image book) 3) If it's a cross-media property that feels at home in an Android's Dungeon comic shop, it's still the same target audience (Star Wars, Rick & Morty, etc.) Those are books that however broadly are 'for' people who go to comic shops to buy superhero comics, the dead market that no one cares about and everyone hates and etc. in these narratives. If it falls into another category (be it the aforementioned types of books, or something like Fun Home or Building Stories) it's a 'bookstore' comic, not a comic shop comic. Which isn't a value judgment, just a market categorization. Legend of Korra's tone and perceived target audience is less that of that stereotype and more comfortably in the manga/anime branch of things, which mostly sells in bookstores. Lumberjanes (from what I can tell) isn't manga/anime inspired particularly, but seems to be somewhere between the audience for something like Raina Telgemeier, or This One Summer, or the audience for shows like Adventure Time or Steven Universe or Gravity Falls, the latter two having had comic series published by Lumberjane's publisher Boom. Books like that mostly sell in bookstores too. So it's less that Lumberjanes is 'manga' as much as that there really is a generally clear divide between "comics purchased in comic shops" and "comics purchased in bookstores" and the crossover is relatively low in either direction; things like Watchmen and Infinity Gauntlet and Ms. Marvel sometimes break into bookstores, and things like Lumberjanes and really big manga series sometimes break into comic shops. But only rarely. Edge & Christian fucked around with this message at 06:22 on Aug 9, 2019 |
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Aug 9, 2019 06:20
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Unmature posted:And then Liefeld’s first issue killed him People have posted this sentiment before and I think it's sort of tacky. In any case by all accounts I've otherwise seen the two had a more or less cordial working relationship. Gruenwald hired Liefeld for his first Marvel assignment in 1986, a back-up story in The Avengers that never saw print, and (granted, this one is related by Liefeld himself) called him with firm but encouraging words after getting placed on New Mutants. Mark Gruenwald was a professional, and what's more, a professional who had had his stuff illustrated by subpar or modish artists plenty of times before 1996. If Michael Gustovich's pencils on The Terminatrix Objective didn't kill him, I'm hard pressed to believe Rob Liefeld's could have.
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Aug 9, 2019 06:30
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Edge & Christian posted:I'm also not that familiar with either Korra or Lumberjanes, but my criteria was basically: Fair enough! My exposure to Lumberjanes is mostly through my wife's younger cousin, who got the first TPB as a gift way back when and kept up with it throughout middle school and high-school. It definitely seemed to, as you said, strike a tone somewhere between Telgemeier-style lightly fantastic adolescent drama and the quirkier, more episodic and cartoony tone of those Cartoon Network and Disney shows.
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Aug 9, 2019 06:39
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Archyduchess posted:People have posted this sentiment before and I think it's sort of tacky. In any case by all accounts I've otherwise seen the two had a more or less cordial working relationship. Gruenwald hired Liefeld for his first Marvel assignment in 1986, a back-up story in The Avengers that never saw print, and (granted, this one is related by Liefeld himself) called him with firm but encouraging words after getting placed on New Mutants. Mark Gruenwald was a professional, and what's more, a professional who had had his stuff illustrated by subpar or modish artists plenty of times before 1996. If Michael Gustovich's pencils on The Terminatrix Objective didn't kill him, I'm hard pressed to believe Rob Liefeld's could have. Hang on a drat second are you saying that he wasn’t literally killed by a comic book and this post may have even been in jest?
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Aug 9, 2019 07:05
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Skwirl posted:As someone whose opinion of Bendis waxed and wained over the years, I'm really happy he's written more Spider-Man than Dan Slott. Slott could conceivably still beat him in total Spider-man comics if he writes some annuals and one-shots and mini-series and guest issues of side books, but Bendis will hold the title of "longest run on a Spider-man title" probably forever.
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Aug 9, 2019 07:47
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Archyduchess posted:People have posted this sentiment before and I think it's sort of tacky. It really is. If Gruenwald's early death can be attributed to anything in comics, it's the destruction of the company in general rather than just Captain America which he was already off. He was the number two editorial guy at Marvel while it was being destroyed. I really can't say if there were any stress related causes to Gruenwald's passing, but there's a much larger source of it to point to than one lovely book. Unmature posted:Hang on a drat second are you saying that he wasn’t literally killed by a comic book and this post may have even been in jest? A lot of people talk about that seriously.
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Aug 9, 2019 13:04
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I've been thinking about characters that should have been one offs. Where they were fine for their initial story but really should never have appeared more than once because there's pretty much nothing else you can do with them. Doomsday comes to mind, a necessary wrecking ball to kill Superman. I actually think Sentry has an interesting story but him just existing means you have to turn him into just another guy and it completely neuters him, similar to Doomsday. My question is are there any examples of interesting one off characters like that where they actually resisted the temptation and we never saw them again.
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Aug 9, 2019 19:25
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The Answer was a bit of a big deal in Milgrom-era Spidey comics, a hyper-competent Kingpin enforcer with a really open-ended powerset. He hung around for I don't know, two years and change, and then died in a way that was sort of hand-wavey but still tied a nice knot on his fanatical devotion to Fisk. He has, of course, come back to life, but mostly as a background cameo in big groupshots of D-List villains. He was sort of neat as someone with a ridiculous super power who was held back by his commitment to a relatively street-level boss, and I think as a recurring villain writers would quickly come up against some serious limits in making him a believable but beatable threat, so I'm perfectly satisfied with him being a weird guy with a really cool design who had a brief moment in the mid-80s and then bowed out more or less gracefully.
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Aug 9, 2019 19:32
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CityMidnightJunky posted:I've been thinking about characters that should have been one offs. Where they were fine for their initial story but really should never have appeared more than once because there's pretty much nothing else you can do with them. Doomsday comes to mind, a necessary wrecking ball to kill Superman. I actually think Sentry has an interesting story but him just existing means you have to turn him into just another guy and it completely neuters him, similar to Doomsday. My question is are there any examples of interesting one off characters like that where they actually resisted the temptation and we never saw them again. Another example of a character that should have stopped appearing after his initial story is Morlun. His intro story is really good. And he dies at the end. But, nope. Someone was demanding more Morlun. It's kind of hard to come up with an example of what you are describing because if they are good characters, you want to keep using them. The best example I can recall is from one of the (relatively) recent X-men comics. There's a mutant thief that is trying to sneak into the mansion for some reason and ends up trapped in some kind of defense barrier. All the other x-men are away on a mission, but the one who finds her is some never before seen rando. But that's his entire gimmick and superpower - if you stop looking at him or talking with him or thinking about him, you literally forget about him. So in this story he regales the young girl with his origin and how he was around for all the big X stuff, but no one remembers him, but that's OK. After the story finishes, the girl realized that he swapped places with her and now he's trapped. She runs off to get help, but immediately forgets as soon as she rounds the corner. His fate is uncertain, but he seems to indicate that the defense grid is also susceptible to his powers and it too will ignore him soon enough. That's a great story and a neat idea for a less classically useful power, but I couldn't tell you anything else about the character. I get that he's meant to be a one-off, but I couldn't tell you his name. So was this a success?
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Aug 9, 2019 22:49
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CzarChasm posted:Another example of a character that should have stopped appearing after his initial story is Morlun. His intro story is really good. And he dies at the end. But, nope. Someone was demanding more Morlun. I think that's Forget-Me-Not. A chubby guy who wanders around the x-mansion and is retroactively inserted into the background of famous fights. It's funny you mention him because I love that story and was about to ask if he had appeared again, because he'd be a perfect example of what I'm talking about.
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Aug 9, 2019 23:22
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CzarChasm posted:Another example of a character that should have stopped appearing after his initial story is Morlun. His intro story is really good. And he dies at the end. But, nope. Someone was demanding more Morlun. Forget-Me-Not. He was in some X-Force plot and first showed up when Mimic and Weapon Omega had defected from the Dark X-Men and Mimic was trying to get him help because his powers were killing him. He wanted his powers drained off but then decided not to go through with it. Speaking of those two, are they in anything? Is Omega still in a coma? I liked that Carey put him in the team in Legacy for a bit.
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Aug 9, 2019 23:38
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