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mlmp08 posted:The result isn’t a “PR nightmare.” The result is dehumanizing, racist behavior toward a person. It's the former, because of the latter, and the (well deserved) subsequent public outcry. Not that complicated.
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Aug 7, 2019 03:03
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Bored As gently caress posted:It's the former, because of the latter, and the (well deserved) subsequent public outcry. Truth. If they treat all races that way during the arrest then it's just a terrible look and a really bad idea. I'm not denying these men may have subconscious (or conscious) racist tendencies- everyone does- but if they handle white arrestees the same way...
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Aug 7, 2019 03:09
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Sorry I missed MP chat. I was an MP. This last year I met a poet who had a line about an undocumented person being arrested for delivering food on base by an MP. After his set I talked to him about all the horrible poo poo that MPs do and how the pressures of the military are a mindfuck when you get out with a little self awareness and realize that you were doing some really horrible poo poo for a really lovely reason.
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Aug 7, 2019 03:10
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Chichevache posted:Truth. If they treat all races that way during the arrest then it's just a terrible look and a really bad idea. I'm not denying these men may have subconscious (or conscious) racist tendencies- everyone does- but if they handle white arrestees the same way... Yeah, maybe they aren't being racist this time!
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Aug 7, 2019 03:11
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What is the point of having cops on horses in an urban environment anyway? Wouldn't they be better off on bikes? I mean, I know the real answer, I'm just curious what the justification is.
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Aug 7, 2019 03:48
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Faster response time in crowded areas, crowd control, height to observe, community outreach, for a few off the top of my head
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Aug 7, 2019 03:49
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Crakkerjakk posted:Oh gently caress, if this is the same guy I think he was my 1st Sgt in boot. loving lol. Yup Also horse arrest wtf jfc no way that was a mistake.
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Aug 7, 2019 03:57
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Bored As gently caress posted:It's the former, because of the latter, and the (well deserved) subsequent public outcry. I’m pointing out that the first lens to view police activity is how it serves the public. Not how it affects public opinion of police which then affects the police. They are all related, but focusing on the former rather than the latter is cops-centric as opposed to focusing on the public first and giving a drat about how cops feel second.
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Aug 7, 2019 05:29
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A Bad Poster posted:What is the point of having cops on horses in an urban environment anyway? Wouldn't they be better off on bikes? Let's them pretend they're wyatt earp
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Aug 7, 2019 06:29
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Horses have always been the go to for crowd control. It’s popular everywhere because it works at deterring violence. No one wants to gently caress with horses even though if things got bad the horses would be useless. You see them in virtually every country. Plus horse cops look less aggressive and are less likely to inflame tensions or send a message that shits about to get violent than a kitted our riot squad with jackboots and truncheons. For whatever reason it doesn’t send the message that the cops are here to crack skulls. You know unless they’re dragging a black man on a rope behind them 
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Aug 7, 2019 07:32
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I've been in a few Dutch police training exercises as opposition. Can confirm charging horses put the fear of God into you.
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Aug 7, 2019 12:10
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AlexanderCA posted:I've been in a few Dutch police training exercises as opposition. Can confirm charging horses put the fear of God into you. Pikes, man. Horses and pointy things don't mix. Horses are also super, super dumb.
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Aug 7, 2019 17:15
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Meanwhile in Saint Louis: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/st-louis-sergeant-there-are-white-supremacists-on-the-police-force/?ftag=CNM-00-10aab7e&linkId=71676634quote:"Do you think that there are white supremacists on the police force?" asked CBS News correspondent Jeff Pegues. But I'm sure it's just a few bad apples and not a systemic issue across the country.
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Aug 7, 2019 22:35
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Liquid Communism posted:Meanwhile in Saint Louis: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/st-louis-sergeant-there-are-white-supremacists-on-the-police-force/?ftag=CNM-00-10aab7e&linkId=71676634 Lmao of course it is systemic. It is systemic across the entire western world. We elected a white supremacist as president. The prime minister of England is a white supremacist. There have been white supremacist uprisings, rallies, and fascist government takeovers (often white fascists) all over the world. We have white supremacist doctors, white supremacist lawyers, white supremacist educators at all levels, white supremacist journalists, and even white supremacist ditch diggers. It is a systemic issue at every level of every country with a significant white population. Why on earth would you think it would be any different for police?
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Aug 8, 2019 00:40
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Chichevache posted:Lmao of course it is systemic. It is systemic across the entire western world. We elected a white supremacist as president. The prime minister of England is a white supremacist. There have been white supremacist uprisings, rallies, and fascist government takeovers (often white fascists) all over the world. We have white supremacist doctors, white supremacist lawyers, white supremacist educators at all levels, white supremacist journalists, and even white supremacist ditch diggers. It IS different for police. It’s worse than average.
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Aug 8, 2019 00:49
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mlmp08 posted:It IS different for police. It’s worse than average. Like, worse than the average person in America by being statistically more white supremacist? Or worse morally than the it is for an average person to be white supremacist?
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Aug 8, 2019 01:09
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Probably the first, definitely the second.
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Aug 8, 2019 01:22
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Chichevache posted:Like, worse than the average person in America by being statistically more white supremacist? Or worse morally than the it is for an average person to be white supremacist? Like, cops are far more likely than the average American to espouse white supremacy beliefs because they go out of their way to recruit other white supremacists to police forces.
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Aug 8, 2019 01:22
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Godholio posted:Probably the first, definitely the second.
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Aug 8, 2019 01:28
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UP THE BUM NO BABY posted:Like, cops are far more likely than the average American to espouse white supremacy beliefs because they go out of their way to recruit other white supremacists to police forces. I didn't know we had those statistics.
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Aug 8, 2019 04:37
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Chichevache posted:Like, worse than the average person in America by being statistically more white supremacist? Or worse morally than the it is for an average person to be white supremacist? From my experience, it's about the same as the general population. It's just that a nazi cop is way more destructive and the clost-knit "thin blue line" culture and policing being ironically one of the only professions with strong unions means that they're tolerated so long as they keep the thinest veneer of plausible deniability, and there isn't really any counterweight to racist cops in the culture of most law enforcement. Most of the problems come from not so much cops screaming n____ but other stuff. Blackkklansman actually was a great example, while the department is like best case scenario in terms of being against racism, the relatively progressive Chief still has racist attitudes toward blacks (ie our local blacks are the "good ones," don't let those out of town panther types put bad ideas into their heads) and spent way more effort worrying about leftist/black extremism rather than racist extremism. It's a sort of subconscious, insidious systemic racism that's the issue. There was some study I think that involved white/black implicit association tests that a relatively forward thinking police department in Colorado (IIRC) released, and at the sample they used showed that the police were slightly less subconsciously racist then the general population. It's just that the general population is ... very subconsciously racist. One explanation though is cops are probably more likely to regularly have interactions with a more diverse set of people than most Americans, which would dampen that response that the IAT looks for. Of course, the police officer data is taken from a department that actually allowed this study to happen... which probably makes it one of the most "liberal" departments in the country. Here's a really similar study: http://www.csun.edu/~dma/Correll,%20Hudson,%20Guillermo,%20&%20Ma%20(2014).pdf Butter Activities fucked around with this message at 14:48 on Aug 8, 2019 |
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Aug 8, 2019 14:38
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Chichevache posted:I didn't know we had those statistics. here's a rather long article looking at the infiltration of White Supremacy into law enforcement As far as hard data on the number, there are some 18,000 different local departments and American policing is so hosed up as to make that data near impossible. Given how much the GOP throws a fit each time this data comes out and the fact that they try to prevent anything being done makes the problem really, really difficult to track. But it is there and on plain display to ever minority.
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Aug 8, 2019 15:54
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Also, check out Ghost Skins
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Aug 8, 2019 15:56
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maybe if more liberal/left people were white supremacists we wouldnt have this problem
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Aug 8, 2019 17:21
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UP THE BUM NO BABY posted:here's a rather long article looking at the infiltration of White Supremacy into law enforcement Yes, we all know white supremacists are making an effort to take over policing and government. It also doesn't help that leftists are making every effort to keep other leftists out of these positions. Either way, this is hardly evidence that police are statistically more racist than the rest of the population. You're probably forgetting how racist america in general is. I'm not denying that racism in policing is a problem, any racism at all is a problem. I just don't think the ridiculous hyperbole a pot of posters in here traffic in is good or helpful for anyone.
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Aug 8, 2019 17:57
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Chichevache posted:Yes, we all know white supremacists are making an effort to take over policing and government. It also doesn't help that leftists are making every effort to keep other leftists out of these positions. Either way, this is hardly evidence that police are statistically more racist than the rest of the population. You're probably forgetting how racist america in general is. I'm sorry we can't produce good solid numbers for you to enjoy with the current systemic problems related to policing in America, but the fact is that the FBI and DOJ repeatedly have cited right wing white nationalism FOR YEARS. What do you expect me to do, conduct a poll of "how racist are you?" to every cop in America?
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Aug 8, 2019 18:37
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The very way you always just brush aside the charges of systemic racism as only being a problem if we can bring hard data to it is itself a branch of the problem we're trying to address.
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Aug 8, 2019 18:41
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UP THE BUM NO BABY posted:The very way you always just brush aside the charges of systemic racism as only being a problem if we can bring hard data to it is itself a branch of the problem we're trying to address. The way you lie and misrepresent things is a problem since I have never dismissed charges of systemic racism since it is a huge loving problem, e.g., me pointing out the loving president is a racist.
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Aug 8, 2019 20:23
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Chichevache posted:The way you lie and misrepresent things is a problem since I have never dismissed charges of systemic racism since it is a huge loving problem, e.g., me pointing out the loving president is a racist. I'll be honest, I just don't read everything you post because I don't like you.
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Aug 8, 2019 20:30
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UP THE BUM NO BABY posted:I'll be honest, I just don't read everything you post because I don't like you. I feel the same way about you. I'm glad you're being honest this time. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 8, 2019 20:53
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Oh right, you're a cop. lol fascist. that's why i don't like you. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 8, 2019 21:06
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Fun. Anyway, I'd hypothesize that white nationalist/adjacent cops tend to congregate into certain departments/units, so you'll have a really uneven spread. That by itself will also limit detection, since all the people who might know enough to report it and provide credible evidence don't care. At least where I worked for a short time any sort of overt racism was generally disapproved of, but there was at least one guy everyone knew was a bigot (one guy was like, "if he sees a black driver and a white driver, you know which one he's gonna pull over") but generally the attitude was as long as he keeps his mouth shut there's nothing anyone can do/it doesn't matter. By himself, it's business as usual, at least by our low American standards for police behavior. But you have a small unit made up of guys like that, or a very small department, and things get scary quick. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 8, 2019 21:21
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The fact that you know a guy is trouble but don't try to remove him is 
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Aug 8, 2019 21:39
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Yeah, that's just our racist. No we don't challenge his beliefs, we simply try to make sure he doesn't go too far on the blacks.
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Aug 8, 2019 21:45
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SpaceSDoorGunner posted:Fun. Anyway, I'd hypothesize that white nationalist/adjacent cops tend to congregate into certain departments/units, so you'll have a really uneven spread. That by itself will also limit detection, since all the people who might know enough to report it and provide credible evidence don't care. At least where I worked for a short time any sort of overt racism was generally disapproved of, but there was at least one guy everyone knew was a bigot (one guy was like, "if he sees a black driver and a white driver, you know which one he's gonna pull over") but generally the attitude was as long as he keeps his mouth shut there's nothing anyone can do/it doesn't matter. By himself, it's business as usual, at least by our low American standards for police behavior. But you have a small unit made up of guys like that, or a very small department, and things get scary quick. holy poo poo you are part of the loving problem
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Aug 8, 2019 21:47
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Man, SpaceSDoorGunner your department is just hella #wokeaf man. Keep up the good work!
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Aug 8, 2019 21:47
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UP THE BUM NO BABY posted:Oh right, you're a cop. Ok. I don't like you because you're a hypocrite who picks moral stances as a way to win arguments, not because he actually believes in something.
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Aug 8, 2019 21:55
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I believe all cops are bastards
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Aug 8, 2019 22:20
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winning Life isn't a loving game moron
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Aug 8, 2019 22:23
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rear end in a top hat cops are killing people at rates that are straight up ridiculous. Better refer back to my trusty old debate rules.
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Aug 8, 2019 22:23
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