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VitalSigns posted:
i'm a little behind on Venezuelanews but it looks like it's the US being dicks here and not the Venezuelan opposition?
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Aug 11, 2019 06:04
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VitalSigns posted:Well, no. What's actually happening is people are asserting that they "know" the Venezuelan people would absolutely positively most definitely vote for Guaido and company, and therefore a military coup to install a dictatorship directly is good because it's what the people "really" want. Several posters are skeptical about this, and are bringing up reasons why we can't just assume they would win. So when you chime in with " I only speak for myself, but there's plenty of people claiming to know what the people want on either side. Uninterupted for example speaks with great confidence about what Venezuelans want and feel, and really I don't think there is good empirical evidence to support his claims. They only make sense read as rhetorical statements. "Bad governments have been elected before" is good evidence against claims that unpopular positions will cause candidates to lose elections, which was uninterupted's argument. If we are to seriously investigate levels of popular support among politicians, we will need a stronger base of evidence than just our opinion of their policies. Unfortunately there's not great polling available from Venezuela, so that means we have to live with plenty of uncertainty. I understand you might not be interested in reality, but I'm afraid you'll have to indulge me sometimes when I derail away from the subject of metaphysics or w/e it is that piques your interest. That quote in the tweet you posted does not support your position. John Bolton has a lot of influence with the opposition but is not himself part of it. You are instead representing the position of the US government. if you think the Venezuelan opposition are pure proxies for the US I suggest you look deeper into the history of how the US has exerted influence in Latin America, because it would not support this assumption. For example, American policy makers int the eighties WISHED they could have controlled the government of El Salvador, it would have made their task of defeating the communists so much easier. Instead they had to beg and bribe and threaten sulky local politicians who would actively undermine US strategies even as they pretended to execute them. To keep this post focused, the main point where I have taken issue with you, or at least have not seen the evidence of, is this: "opposition has rejected internationally monitored elections" I'd really like to see this better supported, so I can at least understand specifically what you saying. While a military coup is necessary for Guaido to remove Maduro, if that scheme were to succeed I think he would want elections to proceed as fast as possible. This is because obviously until that time, Venezuela will be led by the colonels responsible for the coup, and not Guaido. Wanting immediate elections would also be consistent with statements made by opposition leaders at the time Guaido claimed Presidential authority. They have also fought hard to get certain kinds of elections, like a recall referendum that was blocked on procedural grounds. I think it is clear that the Venezuelan opposition believes they can win fair elections, and I think you can acknowledge that even if you disagree. I'm not sure what evidence there is to the contrary but I'd like to see what you have. For the reasons you have already outlined it is difficult to predict whether following a coup the new authorities would actually be interested in democracy in the aftermath. Historically, in Latin American history generally and Venezuelan history specifically, military governments have varied wildly in their willingness to surrender power following elections, sometimes giving it up and sometimes cheating/annulling results. As elections in modern Venezuela currently feature every kind of fraud imaginable including vote buying, intimidation, and manipulation of the tabulated results, it is quite likely these practices will continue in the near future regardless of who is President.
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Aug 11, 2019 06:18
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bad governments have been elected before" you're 100% correct, that is completely true. And you're also 100% correct that it's totally irrelevant to the conversation. Just because bad governments have been elected in various places at various times is no reason to assume any given would-be government will definitely win a specific election and it certainly isn't a reason to justify a military dictatorship to install that would-be government.
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GreyjoyBastard posted:i'm a little behind on Venezuelanews but it looks like it's the US being dicks here and not the Venezuelan opposition? Yes good point, that's true, technically it's not the opposition members saying it, it's only the superpower that's calling all the shots saying it, no doubt to the horror and dismay of the opposition who just came to Bolton and Abrams for some innocent military intervention. I'm sure now that the US has revealed its perfidy, the opposition will repudiate the US government support and go to the Venezuelan people instead and ask them to...bahahahahaha kidding sorry, thought this thread could use some levity
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Aug 11, 2019 06:20
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Squalid posted:
Squalid posted:As elections in modern Venezuela currently feature every kind of fraud imaginable including vote buying, intimidation, and manipulation of the tabulated results, it is quite likely these practices will continue in the near future regardless of who is President.
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Aug 11, 2019 06:25
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VitalSigns posted:Ok sure I'll just cite you later on in the same post where you agree the elections post-coup won't be free and fair? If Maduro's regime had held an election that wasn't fraudulent and he was willing to cede power democratically a lot of this could've been avoided. Seems kinda silly to go about painting the Venezuelan opposition as a whole as anti-democracy for responding negatively to Maduro making GBS threads on democracy. Especially since Maduro's biggest opponents in the 2018 election, not-Guiado and not-Guiado, made the same complaints. Volkerball fucked around with this message at 09:34 on Aug 11, 2019 |
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Aug 11, 2019 08:01
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So in short, the statement “opposition has rejected internationally monitored elections" is nothing short of a lie since they haven’t rejected anything of the sort. It’s just Bolton being Bolton a guy so ghoulish that even Trump is starting to get sick of him. In addition, there is no evidence that Maduro’s going to play fair this time around either, he called the 2018 election democratic and fair too and if that’s the kind of fairness on offer, why even bother?
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Aug 11, 2019 09:19
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What the left wants is for sanctions to be lifted, and what the right claims they want is for new presidential elections, so shouldn't Maduro's offer of new elections in exchange for sanctions relief please everybody? You can't trust Maduro? Then use international observers. Has Maduro rejected international observation? No, it's only the US who has refused elections at all right now, because they are not interested in genuine elections, they want their guy in power to gently caress and rob venezuela exactly the way they want to and they will starve people and shed all the blood they can get away with to make this happen.
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Aug 11, 2019 10:07
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Volkerball posted:If Maduro's regime had held an election that wasn't fraudulent and he was willing to cede power democratically a lot of this could've been avoided. Seems kinda silly to go about painting the Venezuelan opposition as a whole as anti-democracy for responding negatively to Maduro making GBS threads on democracy. Especially since Maduro's biggest opponents in the 2018 election, not-Guiado and not-Guiado, made the same complaints. It's loving ridiculous, that's what it is, and we'd have the exact same people complaining had the coup succeeded or not, or had Maduro been removed earlier through democratic means, because ultimately the reason why they are in Maduro's camp is over a very narrow view of anti-imperialism, they don't know poo poo about the country or its people, or what Maduro has said or done beyond "he's a marxist". The "internationally monitored elections" options hasn't been on the table no matter what Maduro is saying, because any election that he has proposed is done with the current CNE, which has been proven to fake results by the very company making the voting machines. It is absurd to agree to elections with the current CNE. This has been a major point of contention since 2016 but because this thread is populated by rampaging Americans screaming Abrams, Bolton, Guaido and Trump at every single thing that occurs in the country, local actors get diluted out of the picture. The fraud has already been proven. The CNE, led by Tibisay Lucena, manipulates results. They haven't done any sort of cleanup of the voting registry here's an article with all the problems it has, and I'm assuming with 4 million people now being out of the country it would be even easier than ever before to stuff the ballots with all these cedulas that would go unclaimed, it also goes without saying that if the vote abroad isn't accounted for the results would differ. Currently, the conditions do not exist for an election. Anybody who has bothered to look at what has happened in the country before 2019 can see this. The opposition has consistently, always, asked for a new CNE, and the Maduro government has never agreed to it. If Maduro had any real intention to host a fair and free election he would.
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Aug 11, 2019 10:11
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Volkerball posted:If Maduro's regime had held an election that wasn't fraudulent and he was willing to cede power democratically a lot of this could've been avoided. Volkerball posted:Seems kinda silly to go about painting the Venezuelan opposition as a whole as anti-democracy for responding negatively to Maduro making GBS threads on democracy. Especially since Maduro's biggest opponents in the 2018 election, not-Guiado and not-Guiado, made the same complaints. Well, no. Just because one dictator is bad doesn't mean that another would-be dictator is any better. We're talking about people who are placing a military blockade on the country in order to deliberately starve millions, they obviously aren't too concerned with the welfare of the people if it stands in the way of grabbing power Noshtane posted:So in short, the statement “opposition has rejected internationally monitored elections" is nothing short of a lie since they haven’t rejected anything of the sort. It’s just Bolton being Bolton a guy so ghoulish that even Trump is starting to get sick of him. "My partner is a bad cop, I don't agree with him but I can't do anything to help you unless you do what he says!" Noshtane posted:In addition, there is no evidence that Maduro’s going to play fair this time around either, he called the 2018 election democratic and fair too and if that’s the kind of fairness on offer, why even bother? If there's a way to ensure elections are legit, just demand Maduro agree to that. If there's no way to ensure elections are legit then you're just agitating for a US-backed dictatorship
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Aug 11, 2019 13:41
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VitalSigns posted:
Don’t kill me if I’m wrong but I don’t think the opposition called the White House and asked to get Bolton on the phone, they asked the US to help restore democracy and Bolton is who Trump sent. And again, the opposition is not looking to install a US backed dictatorship no matter how much you try to frame it like that. They try to restore the democracy that Maduro destroyed. If the US can’t be trusted to oversee or help with monitoring an election, there are other countries with a long history of free and fair elections, they might be able to help. Norway seems to be willing to help with negotiations, I am certain they’d be willing to help if asked.
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Aug 11, 2019 14:25
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Noshtane posted:
Weird the opposition asked the administration that hired to butchers of Nicaragua and Iraq for help with regime change, and they sent...the butchers of Nicaragua and Iraq. Just an innocent mistake I'm sure I'll wait for the opposition to react to US perfidy by repudiating their request for US help unless the US stops embargoing Venezuela and agrees to put elections back on the table. Noshtane posted:And again, the opposition is not looking to install a US backed dictatorship no matter how much you try to frame it like that. They try to restore the democracy that Maduro destroyed. Yeah this is a great point, really weird that Guaido is going to the abettors of genocide instead of one of those other countries, maybe you should warn that sweet summer child about Bolton.
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Aug 11, 2019 14:39
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VitalSigns posted:Weird the opposition asked the administration that hired to butchers of Nicaragua and Iraq for help with regime change, and they sent...the butchers of Nicaragua and Iraq. Just an innocent mistake I'm sure VitalSigns posted:Yeah this is a great point, really weird that Guaido is going to the abettors of genocide instead of one of those other countries, maybe you should warn that sweet summer child about Bolton. The opposition enjoy the support of the EU and a host of other countries, not only the US. Compare this to the man of your choice, Maduro, who enjoys support from democratic paragons such as China and Russia
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Aug 11, 2019 15:03
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Volkerball posted:If Maduro's regime had held an election that wasn't fraudulent and he was willing to cede power democratically a lot of this could've been avoided. The elections weren’t fraudulent, that’s why the opposition specifically asked election observers not to come during the last few elections.
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Aug 11, 2019 15:10
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Noshtane posted:The opposition enjoy the support of the EU and a host of other countries, not only the US. Compare this to the man of your choice, Maduro, who enjoys support from democratic paragons such as China and Russia China and Russia have objectively better foreign policy towards other countries and human rights than the US and the EU. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 11, 2019 15:12
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Noshtane posted:I was not aware that the Trump administration was in charge back in the 80s. If this is the quality of your ideas no wonder your boys' coup failed lol Noshtane posted:The opposition enjoy the support of the EU and a host of other countries, not only the US. Compare this to the man of your choice, Maduro, who enjoys support from democratic paragons such as China and Russia Maduro isn't my choice and I'd like to see him kicked out in a fair election. Which is why you're flailing here, you can't defend Guaido and his neocon buddies on their own merits, you have to deflect to Maduro.
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Aug 11, 2019 15:20
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFAZqLffLaU New Indigo Traveller Venezuela video, his whole series has been good if you haven't checked them out.
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Aug 11, 2019 16:08
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VitalSigns posted:
VitalSigns posted:I'm not sure where you got the idea that my opinion mattered in any way in the grand scheme of things. I'm just upset that people like you try to downplay the immense suffering of the Venezuelan people and demonize the democratic struggle of the opposition, just because your dictator of choice pay lip service to anti-US sentiments. And you might claim that you want to see Maduro gone but you are apparently also willing to step up to bat for this very same dictator, against the democratic opposition, just because US BAD. One can certainly criticize Guiado for certain things but to do like you and Support Maduro instead is just wrong. Noshtane fucked around with this message at 16:54 on Aug 11, 2019 |
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Aug 11, 2019 16:39
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Look, it's very clear, I don't support Maduro, I just think that we need to wait for someone who meets the standards of me, an American poster contributing from my air-conditioned, well-fed home, to become available as an opposition candidate that I will accept. The fact that Guaido is the head of the group that won the last legitimate election in Venezuela is completely irrelevant because I have posted on Some Thing Is Awful Dot Com that he is not an acceptable choice, so we just need to move on and find someone who meets my qualifications: *Has never questioned the glories of democratic socialism or the Chinese government *Has never communicated with or thought about any person from the U.S. *Will not hold the current regime responsible for its thousands of street executions of opponents *Will continue the policies that have turned Venezuela into an open-air starvation camp *Agrees with my Opposite Day definitions of "demoracy" and "military coup" *Is Nicholas Maduro As you can see, I am very much open to seeing the Maduro regime end as long as we can find the right person and educate those silly Venezuelan voters about why their choice doesn't matter. Remember to vote Lavrenty Beria for president in 2020
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Aug 11, 2019 16:45
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Military coups aren't democratic though. Like that's the problem with Guaido & his neocon buddies in the Trump administration, they've rejected elections and so all you can do is point to the thing we agree on: Maduro is a bad leader, but that isn't reason to believe a US-imposed dictatorship wouldn't be worse E: ^^^^ If the Venezuelan people really want to elect Guaido president as you say then there's no need to take internationally-monitored elections off the table. If you can get Maduro to agree to hold those elections then you will win VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 16:51 on Aug 11, 2019 |
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Aug 11, 2019 16:47
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M. Discordia posted:Look, it's very clear, I don't support Maduro, I just think that we need to wait for someone who meets the standards of me, an American poster contributing from my air-conditioned, well-fed home, to become available as an opposition candidate that I will accept. The fact that Guaido is the head of the group that won the last legitimate election in Venezuela is completely irrelevant because I have posted on Some Thing Is Awful Dot Com that he is not an acceptable choice, so we just need to move on and find someone who meets my qualifications: If you were able to quote people instead of making up a list of bad things you can pretend people said your argument would be a lot more impressive. Unfortunately I haven't seen anyone say that bullshit though, anywhere. Do you have anything substantial to contribute or do you just delight in posting lists of stuff nobody said to paint everyone who disagrees with you politically as celebrators of starvation and street executions?
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Aug 11, 2019 16:59
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VitalSigns posted:Military coups aren't democratic though. Like that's the problem with Guaido & his neocon buddies in the Trump administration, they've rejected elections and so all you can do is point to the thing we agree on: Maduro is a bad leader, but that isn't reason to believe a US-imposed dictatorship wouldn't be worse It's only Bolton who has been pissy about possible elections, Guaido ordered them pretty soon after he was declared interim president. As we all know, Maduro and his stooges in the National Electoral Council refused.
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Aug 11, 2019 16:59
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Guaido already won an election and he doesn't need to win a second one just because that's the latest hurdle that Noam Chomsky or Vladimir Putin or whoever you're taking your talking points from made up. The fact that he's not participating in the endless game of "one more thing you will need to do..." is to his credit.
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Aug 11, 2019 17:12
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VitalSigns posted:Military coups aren't democratic though. The problem is when you type this sentence it just filters through your sunglasses as "bad thing isn't good thing." Maduro using the military to prevent his opponents from taking control of the government after winning an election is a military coup. Guaido's bloc winning an election is democratic. There's one group of people using words to mean what they mean and another using "military coup" to mean "winning an election" and "democratic" to mean "holding on to power by violent means after losing an election."
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Aug 11, 2019 17:14
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M. Discordia posted:The problem is when you type this sentence it just filters through your sunglasses as "bad thing isn't good thing." Maduro using the military to prevent his opponents from taking control of the government after winning an election is a military coup. Guaido's bloc winning an election is democratic. There's one group of people using words to mean what they mean and another using "military coup" to mean "winning an election" and "democratic" to mean "holding on to power by violent means after losing an election." M. Discordia posted:Now that the PSUV is in open sedition against the first legitimately elected government of Venezuela in 17 years, it's time to just round them up and kill them in an orderly fashion instead of doing so at the end of a protracted and destructive civil war. M. Discordia posted:There is no time like the present to Kill All Communists. M. Discordia posted:Now that the PSUV is in open sedition against the first legitimately elected government of Venezuela in 17 years, it's time to just round them up and kill them in an orderly fashion instead of doing so at the end of a protracted and destructive civil war. M. Discordia posted:The USSR and the PRI and the Sandinistas fell and they all had a lot more competence at keeping dissent out of the public eye. Eventually the Venezuelan people will Kill All Communists, there are no perpetual dictatorships.
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Aug 11, 2019 17:20
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VitalSigns posted:There's been polling posted itt about this exact thing and iirc the results were that Maduro isn't popular, but Guaido assuming power unconstitutionally is even less popular so I'm skeptical that Venezuelans are secretly buying what you're saying but then just lying to pollsters or whatever This is not an accurate description of the polling. You can review a number of the polls that occurred following Guaido's claim to authority on wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responses_to_the_2019_Venezuelan_presidential_crisis#Public_opinion This doesn't include any polls taken since the beginning of summer. As I recall while most polling was generally pretty positive towards Guaido in the beginning of the year, after his attempt to seize control over the executive failed opinion has turned against him to an extent because of that failure. Even polling by extremely pro-Maduro partisan sources tended to show that opinion about Guaido was split, rather than to say he or his actions were definitely unpopular.
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Aug 11, 2019 17:30
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Ah that explains why I was having trouble understanding what he meant about backwards definitions of "democracy" and "military coup", it was all projection. If I replace "democracy" with "mass murder my political opponents" M Discordia's posts name perfect sense
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Aug 11, 2019 17:40
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Squalid posted:This is not an accurate description of the polling. You can review a number of the polls that occurred following Guaido's claim to authority on wikipedia: Fair enough, although I stand by the assessment that this is not a sound basis for asserting that a military coup and US-backed dictatorship is definitely the will of the people.
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Aug 11, 2019 17:58
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VitalSigns posted:Fair enough, although I stand by the assessment that this is not a sound basis for asserting that a military coup and US-backed dictatorship is definitely the will of the people. Which is why the opposition don't struggle for a US-backed dictatorship. Their goal is to restore the democracy that Maduro ended with his coup.
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Aug 11, 2019 21:27
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You say that but it doesn't match up with their actions
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Aug 11, 2019 21:38
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You've been flat out lying about their actions.
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Aug 11, 2019 21:41
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Well no, I quoted the US's position and pro-coup posters are tying themselves in knots trying to get me to believe that the position of the superpower they've gone to to execute the coup is irrelevant. It's a pretty unlikely argument but sophistry is all yall have left.
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Aug 11, 2019 21:54
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VitalSigns posted:Well no, I quoted the US's position and pro-coup posters are tying themselves in knots trying to get me to believe that the position of the superpower they've gone to to execute the coup is irrelevant. You said the "opposition" rejected internationally monitored elections. That's an outright lie. And the opposition isn't the hivemind you're framing it as anyways. You are trying to paint the entire opposition as Guiado, Guiado as the US, and the US as John Bolton, because if any of it true, that would be a strong foundation for your own useless, political slapfights in the US. This would be and has been your stance regardless of anything that is or isn't actually happening in Venezuela. It's a position that requires no evidence, which is why you have yet to bring any to the table. And it's a bit gross, considering you suffer no consequences for anything that happens in Venezuela, even tangentially. The whole thing is merely a philosophical exercise for you, so you can't even begin to understand the desperation, the human element, that is factoring into many of the developments there. You are fully taking advantage of the luxury of not having to understand and all the while you can still tell yourself you're being compassionate because the only person countering your viewpoint you are willing to acknowledge is John Bolton. Volkerball fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Aug 11, 2019 |
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Aug 11, 2019 22:12
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Lmao come on dude you live comfortably in new Zealand or somewhere and you constantly argue for wars all over the world as a philosophical exercise because you don't suffer any of the consequences of foreign adventurism. Pots, kettles, etc. I've seen war, it sucks, you're just a chickenhawk. As long as Guaido partners with Trump and the neocons to embargo Venezuelans and starve the country into submitting to a US-backed coup, the reasonable conclusion is that he agrees with or at least is ok with US demands. If you don't like that maybe suggest he repudiate the US' unreasonable demands? E: fair point about my using Guaido as a shorthand for the opposition though, care to suggest some other opposition figure you like better that I should support instead? VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 22:28 on Aug 11, 2019 |
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Aug 11, 2019 22:19
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it's silly to assume that the us even wants fair elections. here is an aei interview of elliot abrams that quite clearly lays out what the us government thinks. https://www.aei.org/multimedia/wth-is-going-on-in-venezuela-elliott-abrams-discusses-trumps-strategy/ i'm not going to find the timestamp where he says it, but elliot abrams states "the united states will not accept any election that results in maduro becoming president." for all the talk of maduro banning parties, the us is doing the exact same thing in venezuela. how can the us declare elections illegitimate when they openly state that they will not accept one outcome? the same republican party that rigged their own elections in 2018 in GA and SC don't care about fair elections, they care about winning at any cost. they don't care about legitimate elections except as a tool to beat their opponents with. they want maduro gone, and will say literally anything to further this goal. also, elliot abrams happily trots out the "maduro is worse than pinochet because of his death squads" line, in a totally not hypocritical fashion.
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Aug 11, 2019 22:34
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Ya boy Maduro's death squads have killed more than Pinochet's, and that's a fact whether noun, verb, or Elliot Abrams invokes it or not.
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Aug 11, 2019 22:48
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VitalSigns posted:Lmao come on dude you live comfortably in new Zealand or somewhere and you constantly argue for wars all over the world as a philosophical exercise because you don't suffer any of the consequences of foreign adventurism. Pots, kettles, etc. I've seen war, it sucks, you're just a chickenhawk. I was in the infantry during the surge op. You've seen war from one side. You didn't see it from the side of the Kurds in Iraq, who were protected from a second Anfal campaign for a decade through a no fly zone, which ended with Saddam hanging at the end of a rope on a day that is still an unofficial Kurdish holiday. You didn't see it from the perspective of Arabs in Iraq who were subject to unaccounted violence from US forces that unjustly targeted them, to the extent that they were willing to support loving AQI and bloodthirsty Shia militias in Iraq because they were so desperate. You don't know what it is to be under a boot, you've only worn it. And yet you sit there and judge people who are under one themselves, because you haven't experienced anything like what they experienced, and you refuse to acknowledge or listen to them. I don't give a gently caress about what Guiado, Bolton, or you have to say about what is going on there. I want to know what the protesters are saying. What the streets want, what they feel, and why. And that's the only information that will factor into determining what I want to see in Venezuela. In lieu of that, I'm not going to make poo poo up to serve my own ends, because I don't have any beyond human rights and dignity for Venezuelan people who as of right now, are being oppressed by a shithole government that refuses to cede power. Those are the people who need to be at the center of this discussion, not the US. Maybe if people had a coherent counter-strategy to the John Boltons of the world that wasn't rooted in some cold war era chessboard nonsense that sees those trapped in the middle as pawns on a board rather than people entitled to self-determination, those types of neocons would become obsolete. But as it stands, they're the only people offering solutions, albeit ridiculously lovely ones. If the "anti-imperialist" left ever offered anything other than the status quo, maybe they wouldn't lose the debate so goddamned always.
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Aug 11, 2019 22:48
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GoluboiOgon posted:it's silly to assume that the us even wants fair elections. here is an aei interview of elliot abrams that quite clearly lays out what the us government thinks. Neither Elliot Abrams nor Bolton is the Venezuelan opposition, no matter how many times tankies repeat that lie. Maduro belongs behind bars and is objectively worse than Pinochet, not only does he kill more of the democratic opposition than Pinochet ever did, he also kills thousands of people not involved in politics whatsoever, like infants, through his monstrous and demonstrably damaging policies. Noshtane fucked around with this message at 23:38 on Aug 11, 2019 |
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Aug 11, 2019 23:32
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uninterrupted posted:The elections weren’t fraudulent, that’s why the opposition specifically asked election observers not to come during the last few elections. If the elections weren't fraudulent, how does a leader with 21% approval rating get 68% of the vote?
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Aug 11, 2019 23:45
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broke: listen to venezuelans living in sweden woke: listen to former(?) us military who know what oppression is like from the time they spent oppressing iraqis
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Aug 11, 2019 23:50
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Noshtane posted:Neither Elliot Abrams nor Bolton is the Venezuelan opposition, no matter how many times tankies repeat that lie. Maduro belongs behind bars and is objectively worse than Pinochet, not only does he kill more of the democratic opposition than Pinochet ever did, he also kills thousands of people not involved in politics whatsoever, like infants, through his monstrous and demonstrably damaging policies. "why you gotta make me hit you," but for a deliberate program of mass starvation as punishment for not supporting a coup
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Aug 11, 2019 23:53
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