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Gort posted:Sure, but PBTA would actually add something, rather than being something you need to subtract. Such as
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Aug 12, 2019 14:34
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Plutonis posted:Such as Pbta games encourage flowy creative descriptions. Dnd says shut up and let the next person roll their dice
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Aug 12, 2019 14:43
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Nuns with Guns posted:It does lend some credence to the early spin that 5e was going to be a baseline structure you could bolt future rule supplements onto, like the proposed 4e-style tactical combat or other appealing aspects of prior editions, except then they never released any supplements that would cater to fans of specific 2e or 4e rules. Guess they have the DMs Guild to outsource that to now, and don't see a point in bothering further? It'd be nice if 5E had a really decent domain/army management subsystem, particularly if you could cook up a way to give that stuff back to fighters and others and actually have it mean something substantial in uptime. (Like, once per long rest the fighter can bring forward some troops from her army to fortify an area the PCs have cleared out, once per short rest she can call for her elite troops to come in as reinforcements...)
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Aug 12, 2019 14:51
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Gort posted:It's a shame really, something PBTA would be a much better fit for their show. You can't really make "I hit for 16 damage, your go" into gripping watching.
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Aug 12, 2019 15:35
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Almost all the popular 'actual plays' are highly scripted and edited anyway so it's not like the system matters a ton.
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Aug 12, 2019 15:37
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Splicer posted:That's the second stupidest thing I've heard about the UK all day Just because this sparked a rather hilarious chat on Discord, UK tax rules say or said: - Jaffa Cakes had to prove they were cakes instead of biscuits for VAT purposes; - hot food to eat in place or take away attracts VAT, cold food for the larder doesn't. Bakeries had an exception to sell hot food without VAT because a loaf of freshly baked bread is sold hot, but not something to eat as a snack in place. When they responded to this by selling snack sausage rolls/pasties etc without VAT by the same exception, changing it triggered an actual named political scandal ("pastygate", yea.) - for the same reason garages etc. sell snack foods cold then offer a microwave to heat them in for free, so that they're not technically sold hot. Also, having just looked it up, e-books were considered software in Europe, but aren't any more. In the UK right now, they aren't considered software, they're considered "services" - because the legal agreement that's attached to them usually says you're not buying the book, just a revokable license to the content.
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Aug 12, 2019 15:40
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fool_of_sound posted:Almost all the popular 'actual plays' are highly scripted and edited anyway so it's not like the system matters a ton. Rant: IME, yes, the system does matter because in some cases WotC is sponsoring them to play 5e. If what they are showing is not actual 5e play, they're basically sponsoring people to lie about their product for them.
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Aug 12, 2019 15:45
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hyphz posted:Rant: IME, yes, the system does matter because in some cases WotC is sponsoring them to play 5e. If what they are showing is not actual 5e play, they're basically sponsoring people to lie about their product for them. I got some distressing news to give about the nature of advertisement.
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Aug 12, 2019 15:55
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Imagine that I'm trying to act surprised that gaming, especially WotC, would have an ethics problem.
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Aug 12, 2019 15:56
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It's about ethics in showing the dm's rolls
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Aug 12, 2019 16:30
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Plutonis posted:I got some distressing news to give about the nature of advertisement.
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Aug 12, 2019 17:24
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funny enough wasn't the original game they played for fun that sparked all this a pathfinder game? Percy was a gunslinger and all after all.
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Aug 12, 2019 18:16
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hyphz posted:Rant: IME, yes, the system does matter because in some cases WotC is sponsoring them to play 5e. If what they are showing is not actual 5e play, they're basically sponsoring people to lie about their product for them. Counterpoint, almost no one has ever played any version of D&D remotely close to what is actually on the pages of the rule books. You could say that the true essence of D&D is an endless line of nerds looking at a huge pile of books and going "ehhhhhhhh, if you roll a 15 or better, your barbarian can totally jump his arcano-cycle across the gorge. Yeah, that sounds right."
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Aug 12, 2019 18:18
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I've been considering the linear fighter vs quadratic wizard problem, and I thought of a strange solution: Eliminate Fighter, give particular elements of fighter to other classes. IE, give Barbarians some of the STR Fighter stuff like heavy armor benefits and excessive attacks, give Ranger the DEX Fighter stuff and Battle Master stuff to be more Aragorn-ee (and buff Ranger to be the go-to DEX martial class), maybe give Eldritch Knight to Warlock or Cleric or something. Thoughts?
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Aug 12, 2019 18:27
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Meinberg posted:D&D is fine and all, but how do you feel about a two-player game based around making out with your own doppelganger??? why isn't this called doppelbanger
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Aug 12, 2019 18:38
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Kulkasha posted:I've been considering the linear fighter vs quadratic wizard problem, and I thought of a strange solution: This is kind of a solved problem already, it just wasn't iterated on from 4e. I assume that you're saying that the Fighter is a generic enough archetype that you could dissolve it into the other martial classes, but I think that's a failure to carry the gist of what the Fighter is about. Barbarians are shamanistic spirit-warriors, Rangers are wilderness-faring finesse fighters, Paladins are chivalric knights. The Fighter is a hard-bitten career soldier or mercenary, surviving by grit and determination where others rely on supernatural power or esoteric training. There's design space for this, and it's a sad failing of the D&D paradigm that this isn't communicated better
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Aug 12, 2019 18:42
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More recently, Pathfinder 2e shows you can have a DnD-like and have decent balance between casters and martials
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Aug 12, 2019 18:56
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Yeah, by skiving stuff from 4E but obfuscating it 
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Aug 12, 2019 19:07
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Zeerust posted:This is kind of a solved problem already, it just wasn't iterated on from 4e. I assume that you're saying that the Fighter is a generic enough archetype that you could dissolve it into the other martial classes, but I think that's a failure to carry the gist of what the Fighter is about. Yeah, sorry, I should have clarified that this was the 3.5/5e Fighter issue, whereas 4e is so well balanced that Fighter makes sense. The main conceptual problem I've always had with Fighter is that the other "martials" have greater motive/purpose in a fantastical setting, whereas Fighter seems like a holdover from a realistic setting. For example, Guts from Berserk could be considered a fighter, given the heavy armor, large martial weapon, mercenary, etc, but - he goes into Rage, like a Barbarian, which is more interesting conceptually and mechanically in combat. Another example is either Aragorn (or maybe Drizzt), they attack fast and hard and command the flow of battle, so they're Rangers using Battle Master stuff.
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Aug 12, 2019 19:13
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See, I find that interesting, because my mind works in the opposite direction - have the Fighter be the core martial archetype, and have Paladin, Ranger, Berserker et al. be archetypes that you specialise into.
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Aug 12, 2019 19:32
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The wizard as a D&D class is also overly-broad and its massive list of spells covering every niche is 100% of its problem. D&D did test out more specialized casters and more flavorful fighters in 3e and a lot of good, fun classes emerged in because of that. But they can never remove the original classes because the iconic image of the game is a fighter, wizard, rogue, and cleric having adventures together. Nuns with Guns fucked around with this message at 19:37 on Aug 12, 2019 |
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Aug 12, 2019 19:35
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Zeerust posted:See, I find that interesting, because my mind works in the opposite direction - have the Fighter be the core martial archetype, and have Paladin, Ranger, Berserker et al. be archetypes that you specialise into. This makes me think of a potentially interesting (if not necessarily good) D&D style RPG that only has two classes, martial and caster. All of the traditional D&D classes you'd expect would be an archetype of the two, and the more half-caster variants like Paladin, Eldritch Knight, etc. would be something you get through multiclassing (or something along those lines.) It would probably be terrible, but I like the idea.
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Aug 12, 2019 19:40
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More games need clear grappling and unarmed combat rules for non-Monks. Why can't my big burly Fighter punch someone as hard as a Warhammer hits?
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Aug 12, 2019 19:44
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King of Solomon posted:This makes me think of a potentially interesting (if not necessarily good) D&D style RPG that only has two classes, martial and caster. All of the traditional D&D classes you'd expect would be an archetype of the two, and the more half-caster variants like Paladin, Eldritch Knight, etc. would be something you get through multiclassing (or something along those lines.) It would probably be terrible, but I like the idea. This is how Shadow of the Demon Lord does it, except with four basic classes instead of two. You start as one of Warrior, Rogue, Mage, or Priest, but you pick an Expert class at level 3 and a Master class at level 6 (maybe 7? Its been a hot minute since I read the book), and there's like 50 Expert classes and over 100 Master classes. The Expert classes are what you think of when you usually think of D&D classes, like Ranger and Druid and Elementalist and Paladin are all in here, and they have a suite of abilities to focus your character up. But then you get to the Master classes and now you're picking super niche things, like being really good at a single type of spell or honing a specific technique to perfection. They're very narrow and you only get two abilities from them, but they're pretty powerful (if narrow and focused) abilities.
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Aug 12, 2019 19:59
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I'd like to know more about that. Does it lend itself easily to planning a build at character creation, or is the intent that you play whatever and you'll be able to slip into some niche?
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Aug 12, 2019 20:05
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gnome7 posted:This is how Shadow of the Demon Lord does it, except with four basic classes instead of two. You start as one of Warrior, Rogue, Mage, or Priest, but you pick an Expert class at level 3 and a Master class at level 6 (maybe 7? Its been a hot minute since I read the book), and there's like 50 Expert classes and over 100 Master classes. The Expert classes are what you think of when you usually think of D&D classes, like Ranger and Druid and Elementalist and Paladin are all in here, and they have a suite of abilities to focus your character up. But then you get to the Master classes and now you're picking super niche things, like being really good at a single type of spell or honing a specific technique to perfection. They're very narrow and you only get two abilities from them, but they're pretty powerful (if narrow and focused) abilities. Oh god, you're right. I remember that being one of the more compelling reasons I had to pick up that game.
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Aug 12, 2019 20:07
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My Lovely Horse posted:I'd like to know more about that. Does it lend itself easily to planning a build at character creation, or is the intent that you play whatever and you'll be able to slip into some niche? Having read through the book but only played once, I imagine both could apply. The specialized classes don't require much (I don't think?) and anything spell based usually gives you "+X to spellcasting" so you're not left behind. The base game only goes up to level 10 so it would be pretty easy to plan ahead and I doubt you could choose a combination at random that makes you ineffective.
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Aug 12, 2019 20:18
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Speaking of warrior vs wizard, off topic story : I played a whitebox game at gencon run by a cool older guy who played it with his older brothers when he was a kid. But it wasn't just a 'from the book' whitebox game, because as he said, whitebox was really bad at explaining how the game was actually supposed to be played. So there were numerous rules changes that made it into a very bizarre but very memorable game. -He sets his campaigns in 1300's France, so we were sent to murder "rats" in the Parisian catacombs. -We used the chainmail hit rules (eg each weapon type has a different hit on different armor types) (also apparently this is recommended in whitebox) -Before we started he handed out hand-bound books containing calligraphy of phrases from Roman, Greek, the Old Testament, or a variety of medieval sources. Each class got a different themed book. You were instructed to pick a quote that spoke to you and he would incorporate it into the story. As the dwarf Balthazar, my book was "Chivalry". The quote I picked was, "The pagan burns in the funeral pyre, but his soul may only reach Satan." (pic from another page showing more quotes)  -He liked Call of Cthulhu so much that he put the sanity system into spellcasting. Spells you had slots for lost no sanity. You could cast spells beyond your slots (or even above your skill level) at increasing sanity cost. Lose too much sanity and we're leaving your rear end in the catacombs. -You were given a tiny notebook of scrap paper. You were encouraged to use it as a journal or just to write numbers and health, and you could give your future self (the next session players) advice. Most people got the occasional line or two about 'avoid candleabras'. I got a notebook labeled "Balthazar's Rules" that looks like it was written completely in character by a schizophrenic dwarf   the best part was we were the last session so I am in possession of the rules. i will live by them forever
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Aug 12, 2019 20:26
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Admiral Joeslop posted:More games need clear grappling and unarmed combat rules for non-Monks. Why can't my big burly Fighter punch someone as hard as a Warhammer hits? Games that aren't D&D and its derivatives probably do have this.
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Aug 12, 2019 21:07
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Meyers-Briggs Testicle posted:-He sets his campaigns in 1300's France, so we were sent to murder "rats" in the Parisian catacombs.
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Aug 12, 2019 21:13
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Admiral Joeslop posted:More games need clear grappling and unarmed combat rules for non-Monks. Why can't my big burly Fighter punch someone as hard as a Warhammer hits? Play a Dungeon World fighter; make your signature weapon "my fists" and give them Forceful and Stunning.
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Aug 12, 2019 21:16
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The Shadow of the Demon Lord stuff sounds cool, it also reminds me of how they settled on class progression in the Dragon Age games, start as Rogue, Warrior or Mage and specialize from there. Edit: also losing sanity for casting extra spells sounds like some awesome risk and reward, maybe swap HP for sanity loss?
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Aug 12, 2019 22:14
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Aug 12, 2019 22:20
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Whybird posted:Play a Dungeon World fighter; make your signature weapon "my fists" and give them Forceful and Stunning.
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Aug 12, 2019 22:22
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My Lovely Horse posted:I'd like to know more about that. Does it lend itself easily to planning a build at character creation, or is the intent that you play whatever and you'll be able to slip into some niche? Admiral Joeslop posted:Having read through the book but only played once, I imagine both could apply. The specialized classes don't require much (I don't think?) and anything spell based usually gives you "+X to spellcasting" so you're not left behind. The base game only goes up to level 10 so it would be pretty easy to plan ahead and I doubt you could choose a combination at random that makes you ineffective. either - the stated intent is that you let class decisions be more story-driven, but you can definitely do some build pre-planning to make fun/powerful combos the system is designed from the ground-up to support this sort of multi-classing and works really well due to the way the game is designed - your base path bakes in a lot of competence even if your master/expert paths don't synergize at all (which is rare and probably means you're getting a lot of utility in other areas - you really need to go out of your way and take deliberate action to self-sabotage here, because naive ideas about what's good are usually correct and even seemingly wacky combinations can/will end up more-than-solid), and the Power stat + Tradition system fixes a whole lot of classic issues with D&D magic users, from excessive flexibility in general to difficulty smoothly handling spell growth when multi-classing e: I probably should have gone into more detail about the Traditions + Power so spellcasting classes basically work by giving you Power at specific levels and letting you discover a set number of traditions + spells as a class feature (this is front-loaded at level 1-2 for magic using base classes, most expert/master paths give 1 per level) discovering a tradition gives you an introductory cantrip (many of which remain good until maximum level) and access to a list of themed spells (which you can then select with your spell picks) spell castings are handled on a per-spell basis and based on your Power stat (so the number of times you can cast Fireball-analogue isn't dependent on the number of times you've cast Haste-analogue) practicalities keep casters from discovering more than about 3-4 traditions at most, so even if classes are the same, spell/tradition picks keep characters feeling quite a bit different, and a lot of things that would require sub-classes in D&D (like animal companions) can be handled by offloading things to Traditions LGD fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Aug 12, 2019 |
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Aug 12, 2019 23:28
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Kulkasha posted:Edit: also losing sanity for casting extra spells sounds like some awesome risk and reward, maybe swap HP for sanity loss? The point of it being sanity over HP - especially in terms of CoC rules - is that you want it to deplete a resource that is not easily replenished. There are any number of potions and spells that will heal physical stress/exhaustion/wounds in D&D, but mental wounds aren't so easy. That gives the act of casting such spells a true cost rather than a Monopoly money cost. Plus, it's internally consistent to have it be mental rather than physical damage. Casting spells is considered more of a mental act (given how insistent D&D is about spells being memorized), so casting spells beyond your knowledge and means is clearly an out of mind experience. 19. Approach the spooky magical nonsense - it's rad as hell.
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Aug 12, 2019 23:29
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LGD posted:either - the stated intent is that you let class decisions be more story-driven, but you can definitely do some build pre-planning to make fun/powerful combos https://schwalbentertainment.com/play-aids/shadow-of-the-demon-lord-reference-tables/ According to this paths list, there are 84 paths in the core book. Four of those are Novice (Magician, Priest, Rogue, Warrior), 16 are Expert paths (Druid, Cleric, Wizard, Assassin, etc.) and the rest are Master (Apocalyptist, Aeromancer, Destroyer, Shapeshifter, Engineer, etc.) There are currently 219 paths total in all the supplements released though some of those aren't setting agnostic.
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Aug 12, 2019 23:44
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Admiral Joeslop posted:https://schwalbentertainment.com/play-aids/shadow-of-the-demon-lord-reference-tables/ pretty sure that still hasn't been updated to account for Occult Philosophy, which just added a bunch more but yeah there are a ton of paths, and when you consider how differently they can play with things like Tradition picks its even more nuts and even with all that material it's still vastly easier/faster to sort through and build characters/play than any recent edition of D&D/pathfinder LGD fucked around with this message at 23:53 on Aug 12, 2019 |
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Aug 12, 2019 23:49
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God drat it, this means that I'm going to have to actually read SotDL and determine if it's too sophomoric for my group.
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Aug 13, 2019 00:22
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Zurui posted:God drat it, this means that I'm going to have to actually read SotDL and determine if it's too sophomoric for my group. Or join the lot of us waiting for the PG-rated Wizard game.
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