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i guess oliver's prediction was right in the end after all
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Aug 13, 2019 07:35
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Like, David mindslaved her and basically wrapped her around his finger That is pure speculation. I don't think we see him doing anything other than make her fall asleep, she willingly helps him. I think it was a good ending, and the only one really possible. David did some bad things, but there are a whole lot of people who are also responsible for the way he turned out. His parents for abandoning him, Farouk who was a parasite in his head for years, Syd and the others who used him for his powers and then turned on him when he cracked.
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Aug 13, 2019 07:58
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there was gonna be a reset coming after david killed clark and his husband, the show couldn't let that stay permanent after showing their kid so much, but I figured the'd let Syd & K/Cary stay alive in some alternate timeline or something. erasing syd's good childhood totally sucks without at least some display of her actually being glorious in the changed timeline.
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Aug 13, 2019 08:12
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Farouk was just too good to stay bad. It's not my favorite twist by any means but that actor played the hell out of that character. Maybe like Switch becoming something new in the halls of time, Farouk's long walk through the postcard time desert forest gave him a new perspective on an old grudge. If self preservation was his goal, that which gave him the will to make his journey into the past, how else was he supposed to survive this? The expectation was that he was able to perform such a feat because of his hate but instead it turns out love also powers the devil (if you're willing take his word for it). Speaking of taking his word for it, another thing that changed him could be when he met his past self he was simply embarrassed by his pettiness and finally understood how he brought his own downfall by picking a fight with Xavier. How many more multi-decade absence of real power and influence must he subject himself to by continuing to fight and lose to Xavier/David? His past self even gets all his personal growth and perspective so he doesn't even fully disappear, not like David and Syd do. It does suck to not get a real answer about what the Shadow King is now though, but I don't think we're supposed to expect him to join the X-Men or anything. He already has all those children running around his castle so maybe he'll just free them of those random mind prisoners and raise them the way that he wished he had been capable of raising David. This show captured the camp of comic books in a pretty unique and awesome way, even if the ending isn't perfect I'm happy it exists.
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Aug 13, 2019 08:22
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Echo Video posted:there was gonna be a reset coming after david killed clark and his husband, the show couldn't let that stay permanent after showing their kid so much, but I figured the'd let Syd & K/Cary stay alive in some alternate timeline or something. erasing syd's good childhood totally sucks without at least some display of her actually being glorious in the changed timeline. I thought for sure given the nature of the show that Syd and David were going to end up stuck in some weird time closet for people that are discarded possibilities/actualities, observing the world like Switch and her dad. Would have been nice instead of just being erased.
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Aug 13, 2019 09:11
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night slime posted:I thought for sure given the nature of the show that Syd and David were going to end up stuck in some weird time closet for people that are discarded possibilities/actualities, observing the world like Switch and her dad. Would have been nice instead of just being erased. Yeah exactly, maybe it would’ve been a choice between David and the others about who gets to go to time-heaven and David has to choose, and he’s grown enough to choose them over himself
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Aug 13, 2019 09:52
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This series finale was bad. We never find out what the pokeball was for. We never discover if David actually did manipulate Syd through dance in the first episode. The horrible actions David took to get time reset are all justified. Farouk changed his mind.... when, exactly? Was it after he abused Lenny in the astral plane or was it after he horrendously transformed David's sister as a form of mockery? What was the point of Switch's fear/dislike of robots? What was the point of Lenny in this season? Or even Season 2 for that matter? What was the point of Ptonomy and the Vermillion? Does the connection of "Oliver taught Syd to teach David's mother to be a good mother so that David grows up a better person" really count as "I will kill you with one plus one?" Does Cary/Kerry even... matter? Does anything matter now that everything's been reset? Nah, this poo poo was  in Season 2. They went too far off the rails just to be edgy and interesting. Season 3 was an apology, referencing things that needed the apologetic reference and completely ignoring the things that they couldn't turn over into a point.And I loved it. I love what they've done. I loved this last episode. I loved the direction they decided to take, the apologies they decided to make, and the fact that it's going to piss off so many people who wanted some kind of retribution for actions I have repeatedly insisted came with zero acknowledgement of intent because we never knew what was ever intended in the first place. And that's why mind control stories are so damned hard to write well. I love that we end with David being perfectly fine with the fact that he won't remember a drat thing about what has occurred. "I look forward to getting to know her [my mother]" he says, as though looking forward is a thing he can do as he fades away to non-existence. Meanwhile, Syd stands next to him, deeply saddened by the fact that she is about to fade away and her current consciousness will never know the "glory" her next life will give her. It's a dichotomous split of morals and self-actualization that philosophy majors probably wet their pants over and if it even for a second makes you think to yourself "would I be OK with this or not?" then the show accomplished its job. I love it. I loved the Mother cover because it is absolutely a strange choice to make considering what we're hearing in the lyrics versus the world of 2019 we're living in. I loved the special effect of David's straight jacket turning into Farouk. I love that Switch became a 4-dimensional being which, honestly, shouldn't leave her caring about the people she's met along the way at all. Everyone's an ant to her now. Watch this Movies with Mikey about Interstellar (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugo5FO9PIaE) to 1: Probably introduce you to some extra-dimensional themes you didn't realize were going on in Interstellar and 2: Explain why being 1 dimension above another species kinda makes that other species completely ignorable. It'll sorta put Switch's new life into perspective. Yeah... this episode was a big old middle finger to a lot of folks who wanted this season, or series, to be about certain themes. This finale ended as an episode about change, the power of it, and how if you didn't believe in change, you may as well not believe in time. Change so great that even the big bad of the whole show is now, unbelievably, a decent person. And he didn't even need to be re-raised from birth to get there! He just had to be a total rear end in a top hat to just the right person. I know for a while there's been a poster or two in this thread who was trying to push the "Farouk is lying about how old he is" narrative and I've honestly never believed it until this episode. Know why? Because if he was a 2000 year old being, he wouldn't have made such a drastic change of character in such a relatively short amount of time. This was a bad series finale and I'm glad it was because in the end, it still accomplished the one thing Legion has always been good at. Subverting expectations. *Cue circus music* https://i.imgur.com/G7HhAOB.gifv Goodbye Legion. It's been a trip! DaveKap fucked around with this message at 11:13 on Aug 13, 2019 |
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Aug 13, 2019 11:00
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For the sake of getting it out there before someone else tries to explain it:DaveKap posted:What was the point of Ptonomy and the Vermillion? BTW, now that Xavier wants to be a teacher (just like he always wanted, right?) the need for Summerland becomes moot as Xavier's school takes over. This means Oliver doesn't get stuck in the Astral plane, leaving Melanie behind. Really, there's a lot that gets "fixed" over this reset, despite completely wiping out the entire series as any sort of canonical timeline. In the end, everything we watched was an alternate reality. Though... I do wonder what becomes of Division 3.
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Aug 13, 2019 11:08
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to me shadow kings motivation was that he didnt need to go inside David's mind to gently caress him up. Even if he was raised differently legion inside him would gently caress things up. This time Xavier is going to raise legion up (maybe). The pokeball part was another timeline trying to prevent David from ending the world. They were successful so their timeline is gone as well. The biggest question mark is what happens to shadow king now? Is he going to enjoy toying with people forever? Is he going to try and team up with david in the future? also what were those giant green pointing fingers in season 2?
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Aug 13, 2019 12:04
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Dark Off posted:also what were those giant green pointing fingers in season 2? They were pointing at the obvious
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Aug 13, 2019 13:46
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That episode/season/entire show was beautiful y'all. A truly imaginative series. Tuxedo Catfish posted:...so you don't have to think or deal with the consequences ever again is hosed up and nihilistic either way. Characters did this on multiple occasions though? Farouk was literally given a pair of glasses by his future self that allowed him to face the horrors of his own actions in the most grandiose way possible. Same thing with Charles and the cake. I'd agree that David may not have fully grasped the weight of his own actions, but I don't think he was the show's true moral fulcrum - that role shifted in varying degrees to Syd, Farouk, Switch and Charles (and in a way, his ultimate emasculation by Farouk/Charles was a poetic sort of punishment). So yeah, despite David's arc, I'd say characters coming face-to-face with their own history and taking action to deal with it is a pretty important part of the show's cosmology, based especially on how those supporting characters influenced the show's outcome. But at the same time, I think it's crucial to remember that the Legion universe is a utopian moral laboratory operating under otherworldly principles. If it's within the realm of possibility, how is undoing the action in question, erasing the conditions that led to its onset and hitting the reset button (assuming this all comes to fruition as planned, and we do have some evidence that it will, namely Switch assuming a sort of omniscient narrator role) not simply the most unequivocally compassionate way of resolving the conflict? Wouldn't -not- doing so be the less morally justifiable course of action? You're conveniently forgetting that this reality wherein the perpetrator bears the weight of their actions as a form of pedagogical penance also involves the victim being unnecessarily relegated to their own experience of suffering. Sure, we don't have the luxury of such a comprehensive do-over here on planet earth and we're all stuck with a more onerous manner of making sense of the actions done by us/others to others/us, but the folks in the show obviously aren't working within these constraints, so what's stopping them from hitting the reset button in a deus ex machina fashion?
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Aug 13, 2019 14:10
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Who was the Katie Asleton character again? His step sister?
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Aug 13, 2019 14:44
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I didn't expect answers to all the plot questions since it's not really that kind of show so I was fine with that. The last few eps were pretty hamfisted though, both direction and theme. I don't think Farouk's love for David is characterized very well. It's believable that he'd come to love him, but why torture him during season 1? Or gently caress with his sister? If he's the equivalent of an psychotic overbearing parent, it needs to be shown more.
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Aug 13, 2019 14:56
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The best part of this season was the time eaters.
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Aug 13, 2019 14:58
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I thought the weird slideshow dimension outside of time was very good knockoff Lynch.
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Aug 13, 2019 15:05
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Yeah I think Farouk had an unearned face turn at the end there. It needed more time or clues. It still almost worked though because the actor is so cool.
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Aug 13, 2019 15:13
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Codependent Poster posted:Yeah I think Farouk had an unearned face turn at the end there. It needed more time or clues. It still almost worked though because the actor is so cool. It's been months since he brutally, pointlessly murdered some people; he's had a lot of time to think things over.
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Aug 13, 2019 15:17
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When you reset the timeline, some things don't matter anymore because they didn't happen, and some questions remain unanswered. That's what you get when you mess with time travel, all kinds of loose ends that don't matter. Good ending, good series. Not surprised some folks aren't happy about it, they're probably still mad the point of Matrix Revolutions wasn't punching your way out of trouble like the first movie or something.
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Aug 13, 2019 15:25
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CAPT. Rainbowbeard posted:When you reset the timeline, some things don't matter anymore because they didn't happen, and some questions remain unanswered. That's what you get when you mess with time travel, all kinds of loose ends that don't matter. Right, but nobody was holding a gun to the showrunner's head insisting that the end game center around time travel. I think what we got was enjoyable enough, if a little unearned, but it's weird to say "well, that just comes with the territory" as if they didn't paint themselves into that corner.
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Aug 13, 2019 15:30
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Farouk is lonely. He tried to make a friend, and then he tried to make a friend. Now he's trying something else.
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Aug 13, 2019 15:37
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I’m assuming Old Farouk also disappears when the time is reset right? He no longer exists, but young Farouk has the benefit of his knowledge so he can grow to be a better shadow demon?
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Aug 13, 2019 15:45
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beanieson posted:I’m assuming Old Farouk also disappears when the time is reset right? He no longer exists, but young Farouk has the benefit of his knowledge so he can grow to be a better shadow demon? Young Farouk never gets iced by Charles, so he just gets to spend those next few decades just being a guy. Hopefully a better guy.
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Aug 13, 2019 15:48
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General Dog posted:Right, but nobody was holding a gun to the showrunner's head insisting that the end game center around time travel. I think what we got was enjoyable enough, if a little unearned, but it's weird to say "well, that just comes with the territory" as if they didn't paint themselves into that corner. i figured something along these lines would happen or at least have to be alluded to, just because otherwise there would be almost zero connections at all with the entire canon to explain what's happening in this world. now we can at least clearly categorize it as "failed timeline where charles xavier never starts a school" beanieson posted:I’m assuming Old Farouk also disappears when the time is reset right? He no longer exists, but young Farouk has the benefit of his knowledge so he can grow to be a better shadow demon? yeah i think it's a safe assumption that the same thing happened to both old david and old farouk. young xavier and young farouk both go forward with knowledge they shouldn't have about the bad timeline
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Aug 13, 2019 15:48
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General Dog posted:Young Farouk never gets iced by Charles, so he just gets to spend those next few decades just being a guy. Hopefully a better guy. poo poo you’re right. Young Farouk gets to move forward with knowledge of the future AND his body.
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Aug 13, 2019 15:50
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also, the guy playing Xavier absolutely killed it, to the point i forgot that he was ever viserys targaryen. shave his head and make him the real professor x in the MCU when they add mutants, imo
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Aug 13, 2019 15:56
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Codependent Poster posted:Yeah I think Farouk had an unearned face turn at the end there. It needed more time or clues. It still almost worked though because the actor is so cool. To me a lot of this season felt lime there was a missing season (or half season) in between s2 and s3. David forming his cult, maybe more background on Switch (who barely exists as a character), more on how Division 3 is ok with Farouk running around (and maybe seeding the turn at the end) and maybe more setup on the Ptolomy mainframe thing.
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Aug 13, 2019 16:01
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I thought it was kind of odd how little Lenny had to do this season, and that she played no role in the end game. I didn't especially miss her, but it was unexpected. Wonder if Aubrey Plaza had severely limited availability.
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Aug 13, 2019 16:04
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General Dog posted:I thought it was kind of odd how little Lenny had to do this season, and that she played no role in the end game. I didn't especially miss her, but it was unexpected. Wonder if Aubrey Plaza had severely limited availability. At times it felt like the show was stretching for reasons to keep her around. As for the show itself, I enjoyed it. It's not for everyone, but there's plenty of stuff to enjoy. I especially enjoyed the musical moments.
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Aug 13, 2019 16:11
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I know it might feel unsatisfying to a lot of people for it to be resolved like this, and yeah, I get it. There's definitely arguments to be made for the fact that David's victory was unearned. But in my opinion it wasn't his victory, it was Charles and Farouk's. It was them working out their problems, finding a solution, and being adults. If we look back through the entire show we can see that David has never acted like an adult, he was never mature, too fixated on his trauma to grow, to be anything other than selfish. But when his mother showed her love for him, and then when his father apologised to him for what he had to go through, he was able to surrender, to give up control and to let his parents guide him. David didn't do what he thought he was going to do. He didn't kill Farouk, which is what he thought would fix this. He didn't see that there was any other way. But old David wouldn't have surrendered that control of the situation over to Charles. There was some level of personal growth there, even if it was just "I'm not the one to decide this" compared to his previous assertions of godhood and "fixing everything". So while he got what he needed, he didn't get what he wanted, at least, not what his goals were going into this. Maybe I'm just sappy, but I really enjoyed seeing an ending where things were resolved through words and hashing out problems. I understand its not as much of a spectacle, but I think it's kind of more impressive to show that to be honest. We've seen all the cool psychic battles already. We hadn't seen people working through their problems in a mature and adult manner. So I really liked that.
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Aug 13, 2019 16:35
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Dark Off posted:also what were those giant green pointing fingers in season 2? Red flags pointing directly at David. That was the same episode as the 'green is red' interlude
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Aug 13, 2019 17:02
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DaveKap posted:Though... I do wonder what becomes of Division 3. This made me realize Foreknowledge Cake Charles is going to be able to kick the gently caress out of it in its gestational phase for being a mutant threat. They should make a season 4 where Adult Syd and David are at the school for gifted youngsters in their 30s for some reason. Please god, also this Noah Hawley quote is funny, god the X-Men are going to suck after this: quote:“You know, we didn’t really,” Hawley said when asked if he had conversations with Marvel Entertainment about “Legion’s” ending. “Given my level of being occupied, I wasn’t really up for a lot of tangential conversations about things, and I’m not in the inner circle for the reinvention, or the Disney-fication, of what the X-Men is likely to be.”
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Aug 13, 2019 18:36
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part of the reason for farouk's face turn (imo) is that every time he and david fought it turned into a stalemate. even accepting that David had the upper hand on Then-Farouk, it wasnt clear if he would have actually succeeded in "killing" him. this was the point of oliver's riddle - 1+1=1
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Aug 13, 2019 19:19
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eke out posted:also, the guy playing Xavier absolutely killed it, to the point i forgot that he was ever viserys targaryen. He was great, enjoyed him in Counterpart too and I was really pleased when he was cast for this. I'm so glad they had a good ending for switch, the teeth thing making sense in a non horrible way was really cool.
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Aug 13, 2019 19:24
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i think in retrospect there is a lot to farouk having genuine empathy, even love, for david. from him calling him "his baby boy" in multiple scenes and talking/crying about trying to force david to love him from his subconscious, even though he's parasitic in nature, I don't think it's a stretch to say that while at first Farouk attached himself to david out of a necessity for survival, he developed a strong emotional connection that laid the foundation for genuine love over the next 32 years. Then-Farouk didn't have that appreciation, which is why I believe he was crying after Now-Farouk took his enlightenment shades back. credit to navid negabahn. he absolutely loving killed in that role. One of the best performances I've ever seen in a series. now I want to rewatch all the farouk scenes. Really hope this comes to bluray soon, its one of the few pieces of media I always want available.
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Aug 13, 2019 19:28
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also, farouk wouldnt/doesnt now necessarily need the parasitism that so affected David, since (as mentioned) Charles didnt murder his body. i also wonder if the manifestation of the devil with yellow eyes/the world's angriest boy are both products of david's own subconscious (angriest boy, for sure)
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Aug 13, 2019 19:31
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ex post facho posted:credit to navid negabahn. he absolutely loving killed in that role. One of the best performances I've ever seen in a series. yeah whatever i think of the writing his performance is a constant high point of the show
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Aug 13, 2019 19:32
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ex post facho posted:also, farouk wouldnt/doesnt now necessarily need the parasitism that so affected David, since (as mentioned) Charles didnt murder his body. nah, young Farouk taunted Charles as the devil with yellow eyes when Charles was on the plane to Morocco. "you should never have come" and all that.  the way I see it, young farouk revelled in taunting and frightening his victims. The devil with yellow eyes was part of the mask for that role. During season one, he clearly hadn't changed from that role/morality/sadism, as witnessed by his actions during the bolero scene. I agree that the farouk turn wasn't set up well enough in advance, but at the same time, it can be argued that the season 2 dialogues between david and farouk were a really awful attempt at fatherly advice. In a similar vein, turning the sister into Lenny could be a sadistic mindfuck, but, from someone with a completely hosed up moral compass, it could also be an insane attempt at "fixing", a "gift", given that Farouk knew how fondly david thought of Lenny. And neither young or old farouk have shown care or respect towards the non-powered, the ants. in other words, the setup was poor, but there are traces that could be reconstructed as a setup. Still needed another season though. double nine fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Aug 13, 2019 |
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Aug 13, 2019 19:46
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ex post facho posted:part of the reason for farouk's face turn (imo) is that every time he and david fought it turned into a stalemate. even accepting that David had the upper hand on Then-Farouk, it wasnt clear if he would have actually succeeded in "killing" him. I think his turn wasn't that he gave up trying to win but saw what a crazy person David was acting like, and realized he was the same crazy rear end in a top hat to Xavier. I kinda wish it had been better stated and we could have gotten more Farouk development, more than 8 episodes definitely would have helped. I think you're meant to infer that the rear end in a top hat Farouk goes away somewhere around finding out from Future Syd that David kills him and the entire planet over a pointless grudge he started. I'm guessing the shift was intentionally obfuscated throughout so the detente was a surprise in the finale. Only part I find weird is Farouk says he's 2,000 years old, but that somehow these last 32 years suddenly made the difference. Um...ok. Grow up punk night slime fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Aug 13, 2019 |
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Aug 13, 2019 19:58
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night slime posted:Only part I find weird is Farouk says he's 2,000 years old, but that somehow these last 32 years suddenly made the difference. Um...ok. Grow up punk I mean he's lived as a god for 2000 years then he's forced to watch a disturbed child grow up - it's probably something he's never experienced before. Being a treated as a god probably lets you ignore the suffering of the individuals around you so being forced to confront it second by second for 32 years could certainly have an effect.
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Aug 13, 2019 20:11
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Yeah I realized that after I posted that he probably lived a really shallow and immature life for that time, like drug-addicted David did.
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Aug 13, 2019 20:16
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