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fnox posted:You haven’t had to struggle for poo poo, you don’t know what it’s like to be afraid for your life, for your family’s life, knowing you’re helpless to stop it. You don’t know what it’s like to have your mother call you in tears because her and your father nearly got killed in a kidnapping, and that you’re unable to do poo poo because you’re stuck in a tiny room in Sweden trying desperately to land a job so that you can afford rent for the next month and a plane ticket out for them. You don’t loving know, don’t you dare compare yourself. how'd you get to sweden without a job or money fnox? as someone who emigrated with negative money, I had to have a job lined up before I moved to europe. and yes I've had to struggle. i'm sorry you had to struggle so much, but that doesn't excuse you gleefully wishing starvation on your countrymen. it's hosed up fnox quote:Did people starve or not Condiv? Already answered this fnox. sorry it's not an answer you like, but it's the one you've got. quote:Tell me, is what I saw true or not? Do you know better than me what was occurring in front of my very eyes? I don't trust you fnox. i don't find people who cheer the starvation of their countrymen trustworthy sources of information
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Aug 13, 2019 18:36
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GreyjoyBastard posted:Yes crimes against humanity, little bit rwanda, little bit genocide, no holocaust. If that is a fair comparison, it is not a case for intervention. Are we invading China over the Uighur people? Are we invading Burma? Should we? Should China invade the United States because our police can't stop murdering black men? Should the USSR have invaded over lynching? This is why the Rwanda comparison is relevant. There is a consensus among Democrats and Republicans, as well as much of the international community, that something Should Have Been Done in Rwanda in 1994. So, if you were an expat trying to convince the United States to invade another country and give it back to you, you would be suggesting, as hard as possible without quite admitting it, that the Government you don't like is engaged in conduct so terrible, so heinous, that Something Must Be Done. For the poor victims, of course, not for your own sake.
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Aug 13, 2019 18:37
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BigFactory posted:I would think that a little research in Venezuelan newspapers might help. you'd think wrong. the US has been funding propaganda within venezuela for a long while now. it's one of the problems of trying to get a handle on the situation of a country that the US is trying to change the regime of. quote:Just because the situation is unclear to you doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be investigating it, right? I’d think the opposite actually. I have and there's a lot of claims. I don't know what to believe and what to ignore.
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Aug 13, 2019 18:38
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Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:If that is a fair comparison, it is not a case for intervention. Are we invading China over the Uighur people? Are we invading Burma? Should we? Should China invade the United States because our police can't stop murdering black men? Should the USSR have invaded over lynching? i will grudgingly concede that i mischaracterized where you were going with that
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Aug 13, 2019 18:41
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Condiv posted:you'd think wrong. the US has been funding propaganda within venezuela for a long while now. it's one of the problems of trying to get a handle on the situation of a country that the US is trying to change the regime of. Ok, best solution is to just not try then. Got it. Way easier that way!
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Aug 13, 2019 18:42
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Condiv posted:
You should maybe even do the most basic job of educating yourself if you still can't figure out if their was a food crisis pre 2019. Do you also believe Kim Jong Il got 4 hole in ones the first time he went golfing?
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Aug 13, 2019 18:50
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Condiv posted:how'd you get to sweden without a job or money fnox? as someone who emigrated with negative money, I had to have a job lined up before I moved to europe. I got donations from goons. You wanna know the entire reason why I still even bother with this forum despite the constant call outs? Because they helped me out. The rest of the money, I put in work to get dollars, I learned web development and worked for little money for almost 2 years, I sold whatever I had, and what it landed me was a plane ticket and an empty room. What else you wanna know? Do you want the full story? My first bed was a donation from someone down the hall. my first coat was from the Red Cross, so were the clothes that I wore to the 20 or so interviews I went to after 8 months of applying for jobs. I worked my rear end off for 3 years, supporting my mom and dad as they themselves struggled to adapt in Spain. You know very, very loving well, that if people were starving before the sanctions, that you would be wrong. That you would have supported the people who started this whole mess. This is why you don’t want to answer. I don’t give a poo poo if you don’t believe me, believe those who struggle, go find them, go ask them, stop being such a chickenshit.
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Aug 13, 2019 18:51
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BigFactory posted:Ok, best solution is to just not try then. Got it. Way easier that way! no, the best solution is to not make a determination when I don't have enough information to do so, and enough trustworthy information doesn't exist. you can go ahead and jump to conclusions like "maduro burned food aid!" if you'd like, but I'd rather wait for a clearer picture so I can say "oh wait, it was the people throwing molotovs near the caravan who did that". 536 posted:You should maybe even do the most basic job of educating yourself if you still can't figure out if their was a food crisis pre 2019. Do you also believe Kim Jong Il got 4 hole in ones the first time he went golfing? let's face it, what you really mean is "you clearly aren't informed enough if you don't agree with me". i'm sorry it angers you that I haven't made a determination on this issue and won't without more trustworthy evidence. thankfully, I don't need to to discuss current events like the US starving venezuelans
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Aug 13, 2019 18:57
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fnox posted:I got donations from goons. so you did have money. why'd you claim you were penniless when you traveled to sweden? quote:You wanna know the entire reason why I still even bother with this forum despite the constant call outs? Because they helped me out. The rest of the money, I put in work to get dollars, I learned web development and worked for little money for almost 2 years, I sold whatever I had, and what it landed me was a plane ticket and an empty room. seems kinda odd, cause a swedish work visa typically requires a job lined up from before you enter the country. hell, when I emigrated to europe, I didn't have a work visa for nearly two years because I didn't have the degree requirements to secure one. I had to have a student visa and work the maximum amount of hours the government would let me work on said visa to house myself and afford university. how'd you get a work visa with no formal education and after staying in sweden for 8 months? a student visa? that typically requires proof that you have enough money to support yourself for the duration of your visit. quote:You know very, very loving well, that if people were starving before the sanctions, that you would be wrong. That you would have supported the people who started this whole mess. This is why you don’t want to answer. I don’t give a poo poo if you don’t believe me, believe those who struggle, go find them, go ask them, stop being such a chickenshit. I don't support maduro, so no I wouldn''t be wrong fnox. You should stop supporting the opposition while they starve your countrymen though. It's messed up. Condiv fucked around with this message at 19:07 on Aug 13, 2019 |
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Aug 13, 2019 19:05
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Condiv posted:so you did have money. why'd you claim you were penniless when you traveled to sweden? You’re just an obtuse piece of poo poo aren’t you? Yeah, a couple hundred dollars were left after the plane ticket and rent. How did I support myself for that long? I did freelance work, making around that much, working under the table, below the amount that Skatteverket would consider taxable income. Condiv posted:seems kinda odd, cause a swedish work visa typically requires a job lined up from before you enter the country. hell, when I emigrated to europe, I didn't have a work visa for nearly two years because I didn't have the degree requirements to secure one. I had to have a student visa and work the maximum amount of hours the government would let me work on said visa to house myself and afford university. how'd you get a work visa with no formal education and after staying in sweden for 8 months? a student visa? that typically requires proof that you have enough money to support yourself for the duration of your visit. Because my father was born while my grandfather was studying abroad, I have EU citizenship. I didn’t move to the country I have citizenship of, I could never afford it, the reason I moved to Sweden is because I ran the numbers, and I had a larger chance of success there than anywhere else in the EU. But yes, actually, you’re right I’m one of the lucky ones, due to a complete technicality, despite being born and raised in Venezuela, I don’t need a work visa. And because of how these laws work, my own mother couldn’t come visit me until this year, because she doesn’t get citizenship as the spouse of a citizen who has never actually lived in their country of origin. Are you now gonna shame me for having a dual citizenship? That’s the next move right? When are you gonna answer the very loving simple question of whether or not people were starving before the sanctions?
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Aug 13, 2019 19:26
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Condiv posted:You should stop supporting the opposition while they starve your countrymen though. It's messed up. Are you serious here? This is probably the most heartless post I've read on the Forums.
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Aug 13, 2019 19:30
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Condiv posted:You should stop supporting the opposition while they starve your countrymen though. It's messed up. What the actual gently caress? How is the opposition, which has actually zero power in Venezuela, responsible for people going hungry in the country? The opposition cannot and does not do anything, it is completely neutered and ineffectual. Not only is 100% of the power held by Maduro and his cronies, but even when Venezuela was not a brazen dictatorship (back before Maduro ruled that the National Assembly was invalid, and he'd make his own constituent assembly that overruled the AN on everything) the opposition had proven themselves to be a bunch of fractious nincompoops that couldn't shepherd a flock of sheep, let alone anything more complicated. The opposition has done absolutely nothing except calling a bunch of completely 100% ineffectual rallies, one comically inept rally to get a few trucks of aid into the country, and one comically incompetent attempt to get the military to rise against Maduro. Blaming them for the Venezuelan crisis is insane.
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Aug 13, 2019 19:41
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fnox posted:You’re just an obtuse piece of poo poo aren’t you? Yeah, a couple hundred dollars were left after the plane ticket and rent. How did I support myself for that long? I did freelance work, making around that much, working under the table, below the amount that Skatteverket would consider taxable income. amazing work supporting yourself as an uncredentialed freelance web developer in a notoriously expensive country quote:Because my father was born while my grandfather was studying abroad, I have EU citizenship. odd. sweden doesn't have jus soli citizenship. it has jus sanguinis. was your grandmother swedish? do you have family in sweden? quote:I didn’t move to the country I have citizenship of, I could never afford it, the reason I moved to Sweden is because I ran the numbers, and I had a larger chance of success there than anywhere else in the EU. But yes, actually, you’re right I’m one of the lucky ones, due to a complete technicality, despite being born and raised in Venezuela, I don’t need a work visa. And because of how these laws work, my own mother couldn’t come visit me until this year, because she doesn’t get citizenship as the spouse of a citizen who has never actually lived in their country of origin. you are quite lucky. sweden is very complicated wrt swedish dual citizens born outside its borders. you're very lucky your father registered you as a swedish citizen when you were born and reauthorized your citizenship with the swedish government when you were 18 or you would have lost your dual citizenship. i'd imagine the paperwork and translations was quite expensive. quote:When are you gonna answer the very loving simple question of whether or not people were starving before the sanctions? i already answered your question fnox. Saladman posted:What the actual gently caress? How is the opposition, which has actually zero power in Venezuela, responsible for people going hungry in the country? because they worked with bolton and the trump administration to implement embargoes on venezuela (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 13, 2019 19:56
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Condiv is humanly incapable of being challenged on their opinions. Not sure why anybody bothers
Furia fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Aug 13, 2019 |
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Aug 13, 2019 20:00
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Condiv posted:amazing work supporting yourself as a freelance web developer in a notoriously expensive country Thank you, but I’d gladly skip a meal or two for the pleasure of feeling safe, and for an opportunity to get my family safe. I know where you’re leading with this, I didn’t get assistance from the Swedish government, that’s for citizens and refugees. Condiv posted:odd. sweden doesn't have jus soli citizenship. it has jus sanguinis. was your grandmother swedish? do you have family in sweden? I am not a Swedish citizen. I didn’t know a single person in Sweden, I didn’t know Swedish, I knew that it was a safe country where I could get started with little money. Someone from another forum was one of the first people I met, he donated IKEA lamps to me. Condiv posted:you are quite lucky. sweden is very complicated wrt swedish dual citizens born outside its borders. you're very lucky your father registered you as a swedish citizen when you were born and reauthorized your citizenship with the swedish government when you were 18 or you would have lost your dual citizenship. i'd imagine the paperwork and translations was quite expensive. I didn’t require any translations, only my passport, which, again is not from Sweden. I attempted to translate my grades from Venezuela and they were literally held ransom at the Ministry of Education. I got them back a year later after paying 500 dollars to the person who held them. Condiv posted:i already answered your question fnox. No, you keep ducking me like a coward.
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Aug 13, 2019 20:05
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fnox posted:Thank you, but I’d gladly skip a meal or two for the pleasure of feeling safe, and for an opportunity to get my family safe. I know where you’re leading with this, I didn’t get assistance from the Swedish government, that’s for citizens and refugees. nah I just find it truly unbelievable. no credentials, no ability to speak swedish, no money, and you were able to stay for 8 months and hunt for a job in a country that is notorious for not being welcoming to immigrants. hell, an employer who is hiring you within the country is supposed to post a job listing looking for a swedish person to do the job. It's amazing they couldn't find a self-taught web programmer in sweden! I'm thinking I took the hard route when I went elsewhere to immigrate to europe. quote:I am not a Swedish citizen. I didn’t know a single person in Sweden, I didn’t know Swedish, I knew that it was a safe country where I could get started with little money. Someone from another forum was one of the first people I met, he donated IKEA lamps to me. then how'd you get a residence permit? last I checked "child of someone born to someone studying abroad decades ago" isn't one of the easy ways to get a work permit, and sweden isn't one of the easier countries to immigrate to for someone who is uncredentialed. likewise, a student permit requires proof that you have the means to cover your expenses, and you claimed you showed up in sweden with a couple hundred to your name at best. quote:I didn’t require any translations, only my passport, which, again is not from Sweden. I attempted to translate my grades from Venezuela and they were literally held ransom at the Ministry of Education. I got them back a year later after paying 500 dollars to the person who held them. so you got a student visa? how did you justify your stay when you claimed you were penniless earlier, and also when you're working under the table in the country? quote:No, you keep ducking me like a coward. nope. I've answered you plenty of times. you don't need a fifth time edit: ah I misunderstood. you have citizenship in another eu state. so your grandmother was from europe Condiv fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Aug 13, 2019 |
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Aug 13, 2019 20:14
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Condiv posted:nope. I've answered you plenty of times. you don't need a fifth time The surely there should be no issue with answering it once more, clearly, since you are so sure of yourself? Or is this like when you were lightly challenged on a single aspect of Venezuelan law, which you refused to answer, raising more questions that you refused to answer as well until you got run out of the thread?
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Aug 13, 2019 20:17
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Condiv posted:then how'd you get a residence permit? last I checked "child of someone born to someone studying abroad decades ago" isn't one of the easy ways to get a work permit, and sweden isn't one of the easier countries to immigrate to for someone who is uncredentialed. likewise, a student permit requires proof that you have the means to cover your expenses, and you claimed you showed up in sweden with a couple hundred to your name at best. He is not a Swedish citizen. He has a citizenship in some other country in the EU. That allows him to live and work on Sweden Is not that hard to understand edit: nor is hard to believe either: a lot of people in latin america have some kind of european citizenship. I could apply for an Italian one, if I wanted Elias_Maluco fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Aug 13, 2019 |
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Aug 13, 2019 20:23
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Elias_Maluco posted:He is not a Swedish citizen. He has a citizenship in some other country in the EU. That allows him to live and work on Sweden yeah I missed that. still odd cause jus soli still isn't a thing for european countries in the EU. why didn't your family in the EU help you move fnox?
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Aug 13, 2019 20:27
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Condiv posted:yeah I missed that. still odd cause jus soli still isn't a thing for european countries in the EU. why didn't your family in the EU help you move fnox? Ok? Fnox wasn’t born in Europe, he was born in Venezuela. How is jus soli relevant at all? When you are done playacting lawyer, maybe look up what you are talking about and compare with the facts presented to you before saying something completely irrelevant By the way, if you ever deign to engage with the browns you’ll find that a lot of us are Spanish, or Portuguese, or Italian etc without having ever lived there, or being born there. There’s a reason for that edit: Are you referring to their parent being born there? Are you honestly arguing about statistical probability on a premeditated decision? Honestly preplexed Furia fucked around with this message at 20:50 on Aug 13, 2019 |
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Aug 13, 2019 20:35
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Condiv posted:no, the best solution is to not make a determination when I don't have enough information to do so, and enough trustworthy information doesn't exist. you can go ahead and jump to conclusions like "maduro burned food aid!" if you'd like, but I'd rather wait for a clearer picture so I can say "oh wait, it was the people throwing molotovs near the caravan who did that". You are thinking the hunger crisis of the past few years is a grey issue and could be propagandize either way. Its not. You are sounding like a global warming truther, ignoring all the major studies and the global consensus of professionals. People are starving, thats a fact. How many is up for argument but every major NGO that has studied it has described it as a crisis. So stop with the bullshit of "we can't know for certain". Thats like saying we can't know for certain if people were being held as political prisoners in China or people were starving in North Korea. Also you are being super creepy with fnox now with the whole accusing him of lying about being poor in Sweden. 536 fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Aug 13, 2019 |
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Aug 13, 2019 20:50
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536 posted:You are thinking the hunger crisis of the past few years is a grey issue and could be propagandize either way. Grey issue as in morally grey? Cause no I don’t think people starving is morally grey I think there’s a lot of propaganda from the US and from the Venezuelan government and I don’t think the truth of the situation is as clear as you claim it is though. I’m talking to a person who was shocked to hear the US has been committing atrocities in Latin America for centuries though quote:You are sounding like a global warming truther, ignoring all the major studies and the global consensus of professionals. People are starving, thats a fact. How many is up for argument but every major NGO that has studied it has described it as a crisis. So stop with the bullshit of "we can't know for certain". Thats like saying we can't know for certain if people were being held as political prisoners in China or people were starving in North Korea. I agree people are currently starving. That’s part and parcel of the sanctions and embargo that Venezuela is currently under.
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Aug 13, 2019 20:58
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Saladman posted:What the actual gently caress? How is the opposition, which has actually zero power in Venezuela, responsible for people going hungry in the country? The opposition cannot and does not do anything, it is completely neutered and ineffectual. Not only is 100% of the power held The opposition may not have much power internally but it has the ear of the US and is working with them in order to attempt a regime change. Condiv is not blaming them for causing the crisis, but for making it much worse over the past weeks by following US directives. The peace talks could go somewhere if they would repudiate the demands of people like Bolton, but they aren't doing that, and are instead moving along with the embargo plan.
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Aug 13, 2019 21:00
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Condiv posted:nah I just find it truly unbelievable. no credentials, no ability to speak swedish, no money, and you were able to stay for 8 months and hunt for a job in a country that is notorious for not being welcoming to immigrants. hell, an employer who is hiring you within the country is supposed to post a job listing looking for a swedish person to do the job. It's amazing they couldn't find a self-taught web programmer in sweden! I'm thinking I took the hard route when I went elsewhere to immigrate to europe. I don't really feel like detailing my entire life, I don't think it'll make a difference for you anyway. This is already a detour that you should've avoided a while ago. One of the things I did research, was that Sweden has a huge amount of web development jobs they can't fulfil with locals, matter of fact I'm working mostly along expats. I'm also not self taught, I went to the Central University of Venezuela, but I didn't finish the course, because I left halfway through to go to Sweden. I have proven experience and a portfolio, I'm not a complete amateur, like I said, I worked my rear end off long before leaving. Condiv posted:then how'd you get a residence permit? last I checked "child of someone born to someone studying abroad decades ago" isn't one of the easy ways to get a work permit, and sweden isn't one of the easier countries to immigrate to for someone who is uncredentialed. likewise, a student permit requires proof that you have the means to cover your expenses, and you claimed you showed up in sweden with a couple hundred to your name at best. You don't need a residence permit if you're an EU citizen. You just need a legal reason to stay to acquire a personnummer. University also happens to be tuition free in Sweden, I applied to university, shockingly by sending only my high school grades, scanned, not translated, and I got admitted to an university. Not a prestigious one, but for a long enough course to qualify as a long term student, which would also justify my stay so that I could look for a job for as long as I need to. It also allowed me to get that student room I got, which is the cheapest rent you can possibly get in Sweden. I didn't go to any of the classes, I had already studied everything about the course back at the UCV, I just showed up for examinations, worked the rest of the day. I'm not going to explain how you get around the requirement that you have enough money to cover your expenses, let me just say its fairly easy to get around. What you need is a printed bank statement that has your name and that is over a certain amount. The money doesn't have to exist in a Swedish bank account, which kind of means they can't check if you really, really have it. Condiv posted:edit: ah I misunderstood. you have citizenship in another eu state. so your grandmother was from europe Neither of my grandparents have other citizenships, thus why my mother only has Venezuelan citizenship. My grandmother however birthed an EU citizen, my father, as she did so while legally residing in the EU during my grandfather's studies abroad. Through him, I am an EU citizen. Hypothetically, my children wouldn't be EU citizens, as I was born in Venezuela. If this sounds complicated, it's because it is, it is the dumbest thing possible, these laws make little sense, matter of fact I didn't know I was an EU citizen until 2010, as my father didn't know he qualified, he by chance inquired at the embassy and found out. Condiv posted:yeah I missed that. still odd cause jus soli still isn't a thing for european countries in the EU. why didn't your family in the EU help you move fnox? I didn't have family in the EU. I do now, as my parents are now safe and sound in Spain, my grandmother and aunt live with them, they moved recently. I didn't have anywhere to land, so, that also influenced my decision to go to Sweden, it didn't ultimately matter where I ended up, I had to figure it out by myself and do it alone. Condiv posted:nope. I've answered you plenty of times. you don't need a fifth time You're still dodging, and it's loving sad. Say yes or no.
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Aug 13, 2019 21:20
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There is absolutely no point in indulging condiv, who is apparently unaware that a large majority of Swedes speak English.
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Aug 13, 2019 21:29
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fnox posted:You're still dodging, and it's loving sad. Say yes or no. I already answered your question fnox. Sorry it bothers you that i refuse to take a side on the issue. The fact that the US sanctioning and placing embargoes in Venezuela is starving Venezuelans is something that is quite clear comparatively. I’m glad you got your family out in time so they couldn’t be starved by trump and the opposition, but I’m sorry that you still like guaido and friends after they’ve decided to inflict greater suffering on your countrymen Keeshhound posted:There is absolutely no point in indulging condiv, who is apparently unaware that a large majority of Swedes speak English. Oh I’m aware. Still doesn’t mean moving to a foreign country is peaches and cake Condiv fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Aug 13, 2019 |
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Aug 13, 2019 21:33
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This is a real creepy derail you got going here Condiv 'ol buddy.
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Aug 13, 2019 21:45
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Condiv posted:I already answered your question fnox. Sorry it bothers you that i refuse to take a side on the issue. No, this is not an issue. This is not a fact in contention. People starved before the US sanctions, I am very loving sorry that the suffering millions endured due to Maduro's loving terrible policies are inconvenient to you politically, but that gives you absolutely no loving right to deny them. In 2016 I saw people eating from trash bags. I saw queues from 5 in the morning at the supermarket near my place of work. Toilet paper started disappearing in 2013, that was a funny joke for most Americans, but in the years that followed, so did milk, eggs, chicken, meat, flour, sugar, harina pan, coffee. Most of these products we used to make locally. I drank Los Andes milk, it was always available, if you'd go to any supermarket before 2013 you could find that and a number of other local products. We had a famous ad campaign from the national association of egg producers, "no coma cuento, coma huevo". These products existed, you never had to queue up for them prior to 2013. There's a common trend with every single product that disappeared. Do you know why toilet paper disappeared? It happened very close to the time when Maduro enacted the Ley de Precios Justos. He set the prices of toilet paper to something so low the companies that made it couldn't afford to sell it to that price. So, the government had to import $50 million dollars worth of toilet paper to satisfy demand. That demand would have once been covered by a local producer, such as El Rosal, instead they were forced into bankruptcy. Just guess, which ones of the products that I mentioned were missing, had their prices regulated by the government, and subsequently had their production taken over by the state? fnox fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Aug 13, 2019 |
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Aug 13, 2019 21:45
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Rent-A-Cop posted:This is a real creepy derail you got going here Condiv 'ol buddy. Seriously creepy derail to try and see how "refugee"y Fnox really is or not. Nothing is going to satisfy condiv anyways.
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Aug 13, 2019 21:49
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fnox posted:No, this is not an issue. This is not a fact in contention. People starved before the US sanctions, I am very loving sorry that the suffering millions endured due to Maduro's loving terrible policies are inconvenient to you politically, but that gives you absolutely no loving right to deny them. yes I'm aware the claims that price controls drove everything out of business. i'm also aware of counterclaims that business owners were hoarding items for price-gouging, smuggling, etc. the simple matter is the facts are in contention, despite you continually insisting that things are black and white.
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Aug 13, 2019 21:51
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Condiv posted:yes I'm aware the claims that price controls drove everything out of business. i'm also aware of counterclaims that business owners were hoarding items for price-gouging, smuggling, etc. the simple matter is the facts are in contention, despite you continually insisting that things are black and white. The facts would be in contention if any sort of economic theory backed the idea that price increases were due to speculation and not inflation. This is a theory perpetuated by the Venezuelan government, that they themselves debunked, by publishing the real inflation rate not too long ago. The inflation rate is something directly influenced by the government's economic actions creating a budget deficit (I've previously spoken about gasoline being nominally free in the country). The accumulated inflation rate during 6 years of Maduro's presidency, is 5395536286%, a number so high it seems made up. So do you still doubt that there were people starving before 2016 or not? Because you just quietly changed your tune there.
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Aug 13, 2019 22:02
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Price controls, plus currency controls for that matter, are hypothetically supposed to combat speculation but they also have the proven potential to feed corruption, inflation and create a black market. They are not an inherently neutral tool that just any government can randomly implement without consequences.
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Aug 13, 2019 22:09
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fnox posted:The facts would be in contention if any sort of economic theory backed the idea that price increases were due to speculation and not inflation. This is a theory perpetuated by the Venezuelan government, that they themselves debunked, by publishing the real inflation rate not too long ago. The inflation rate is something directly influenced by the government's economic actions creating a budget deficit (I've previously spoken about gasoline being nominally free in the country). The accumulated inflation rate during 6 years of Maduro's presidency, is 5395536286%, a number so high it seems made up. there's definitely been inflation, but that doesn't debunk the idea that companies were hoarding goods to smuggle and price-gouge with. likewise, the causes of venezuela's inflation and economic woes have been debated here and elsewhere so I'm not sure how you can claim it's settled fact. I am well aware though that you believe maduro is satan for starving people, but love the opposition for doing the same, so I don't think you're being totally consistent in your beliefs on venezuela.
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Aug 13, 2019 22:17
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The psuv also trashed a chunk of the previously-self-sufficient agricultural output through wild mismanagement of nationalization and of land reform. This isn't particularly meant to persuade condiv, because lol, but a reminder that it was a factor. And almost as importantly, one that future socialist governments should learn from and resolve more competently.
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Aug 13, 2019 22:21
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If you legally define the price at which the cost of production is covered as price-gouging, then all of a sudden the entire industry is price-gouging and it shuts down. Holding onto the claim of price gouging in that case is just grasping firmly of government propaganda that they put out to cover how absurdly they mismanaged everything. Of course, your particular style of argument seems to be extremely bad-faith, casting a thousand aspersions and yet never holding yourself to any real standard as you avoid ever making direct claims or references to facts.
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Aug 13, 2019 22:25
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Condiv posted:there's definitely been inflation, but that doesn't debunk the idea that companies were hoarding goods to smuggle and price-gouge with. likewise, the causes of venezuela's inflation and economic woes have been debated here and elsewhere so I'm not sure how you can claim it's settled fact. I am well aware though that you believe maduro is satan for starving people, but love the opposition for doing the same, so I don't think you're being totally consistent in your beliefs on venezuela. It is adorable that you think the opposition has the power to do that, but no. Things started with Maduro, while Maduro had all the power, it makes no sense to blame the opposition for a crisis started by Maduro, at around the exact time he took power. The whole reason why I want you to admit that there were people starving before the sanctions, is because it shows the true culprit. You can say that the sanctions make it harder for Maduro to steer the economy back into sanity, but then you got to acknowledge that for 3-4 years of his rule, every single action he took led to further disaster as he tripled down on terrible policies and yet he never reached for the escape button. It is not as if, the sanctions came in and Venezuela’s economy plummeted. Venezuela’s economy was in shambles, the sanctions game in, Venezuela’s economy continued to be in shambles. At no stage did it show signs of recovery in the past 6 years. If the sanctions are removed, the only thing that will change is the ownership of CITGO, and of several Venezuelan bonds. Maduro will continue to accrue debt until he defaults, like he was about to before August 2017. If you want the starvation to truly end, then you need to force Maduro to accept and redistribute aid, at a far larger scale than what he is currently allowing.
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Aug 13, 2019 22:31
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SlothfulCobra posted:Of course, your particular style of argument seems to be extremely bad-faith, casting a thousand aspersions and yet never holding yourself to any real standard as you avoid ever making direct claims or references to facts. i'm not making direct claims cause I'm undecided on the issue. why would i stake out a position on an issue I'm undecided on? fnox posted:It is adorable that you think the opposition has the power to do that, but no. yes. the opposition is working with the US government and rejecting peace talks in lieu of an embargo on venezuela. it's either that or bolton is dictating the policy of the opposition and the opposition is a puppet of the US government. you can make your choice, but when bolton comes out and says talks of a new election won't be accepted unless maduro is no-longer president and also not part of the elections, it's either the one or the other. quote:The whole reason why I want you to admit that there were people starving before the sanctions, is because it shows the true culprit. You can say that the sanctions make it harder for Maduro to steer the economy back into sanity, but then you got to acknowledge that for 3-4 years of his rule, every single action he took led to further disaster as he tripled down on terrible policies and yet he never reached for the escape button. It is not as if, the sanctions came in and Venezuela’s economy plummeted. Venezuela’s economy was in shambles, the sanctions game in, Venezuela’s economy continued to be in shambles. At no stage did it show signs of recovery in the past 6 years. so this is why you support the embargo? cause you think maduro is incompetent and you think starving venezuelans is the best way to get them fed? you think maduro was tearing the economy apart, so the best way to fix things is to trash the economy at an accelerated rate? Condiv fucked around with this message at 22:44 on Aug 13, 2019 |
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Aug 13, 2019 22:35
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One day we're gonna find the warehouse where the speculators and hoarders have stashed six years worth of toilet paper and on that day Maduro will be vindicated
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Aug 13, 2019 22:37
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SlothfulCobra posted:If you legally define the price at which the cost of production is covered as price-gouging, then all of a sudden the entire industry is price-gouging and it shuts down. Holding onto the claim of price gouging in that case is just grasping firmly of government propaganda that they put out to cover how absurdly they mismanaged everything. complicating this take, the number of businesses that will react to any kind of regulation in the public interest with anything less than a howling, garment-rending breakdown about how the government must want to destroy them can be counted on one hand, and you'd be -shocked- to see the number of corpses the United States of America's dedicated Venezuela Guy has thrown into mass graves solely on the strength of such complaints. the words "Banana Republic" did not start as a mall outlet store. welcome to the reason Juan Guaido is reduced to saying "actually starving venezuelans is cool, good, and my friend" from a Colombian 5-star hotel! lotta people out there getting high on their own supply.
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Aug 13, 2019 22:38
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Condiv posted:yes I'm aware the claims that price controls drove everything out of business. i'm also aware of counterclaims that business owners were hoarding items for price-gouging, smuggling, etc. the simple matter is the facts are in contention, despite you continually insisting that things are black and white. So what you’re saying is Maduro is starving the country? Because Condiv posted:i'm also aware of counterclaims that business owners were hoarding items for price-gouging, smuggling, etc. Is an explicitly officialist line. Also an officialist line: Guaidó is working for the Diosdado Cabello and Maduro in secret to accomplish... something? They were never really clear about that. What is clear is that if you buy into the government’s garbage unconditionally, you buy into Guaidó as a lapdog of Maduro line, and so by your own logic and admission Maduro is the straight up mastermind of the starvation of Venezuelans. loving ghoulish that you cheer at that, imho That or maybe you shouldn’t just trust the government unconditionally, I dunno. You’re the smart white man here to educate us savages so let me know what you think is best, as you have been doing despite repeatedly being told to gently caress off
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Aug 13, 2019 22:41
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