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Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:No. I take no position on that whatsoever. It's not relevant to my objection to US Foreign Policy. Earlier you posted: Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:Irrelevant to the effect of sanctions. A man is bleeding. You stab him fifty times. You say, "He was bleeding before I stabbed him!" Are you sane? "Fifty times" certainly implies the lion share of the cause.
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Aug 14, 2019 17:34
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Reverse the numbers if you want to. It doesn't make a loving difference. IT'S NOT RELEVANT TO MY POINT.
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Aug 14, 2019 17:38
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Condiv: "The sanctions are solely responsible for Venezuela's shortages and other woes. Venezuela has great leaders who didn't mismanage anything while their economy has been destroyed solely by the USA." Me: "Actually Venezuela has been having these problems with the same intensity long before any sanctions." Far Lip: "That's dumb. Just because something was bad, doesn't excuse enacting policies that make things magnitudes of the order worse!" Me: "I didn't say I supported the sanctions, because I do not. I was merely correcting Condiv that they were not the sole or even majority reason for Venezuela's situation." Fat Lip: "That's not relevant to my point!!!" punk rebel ecks fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Aug 14, 2019 |
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Aug 14, 2019 17:52
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punk rebel ecks posted:Condiv: "The sanctions are solely responsible for Venezuela's shortages and other woes. Venezuela has great leaders who didn't mismanage anything while their economy has been destroyed solely by the USA." What do you mean, the same intensity? See that sounds to me like a negation of the effect of sanctions, which you have already sought to minimize. Which I don't understand. You don't want the sanctions, but at the same time you don't think they're doing anything?
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Aug 14, 2019 18:34
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Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:What do you mean, the same intensity? See that sounds to me like a negation of the effect of sanctions, which you have already sought to minimize. Which I don't understand. You don't want the sanctions, but at the same time you don't think they're doing anything? If Venezuela pre-sanctions was an 8/10 in terms of fuckedupness, then Venezuela post-sanctions would be a 9/10. Still making things worse but nowhere near the cataclysmic "this is the reason why Venezuela is really messed up and the PSUV is innocent" that Condiv was implying.
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Aug 14, 2019 18:39
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Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:Reverse the numbers if you want to. It doesn't make a loving difference. IT'S NOT RELEVANT TO MY POINT. Your point might be kinda dumb then.
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Aug 14, 2019 18:50
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fnox posted:When have I ever said that I wanted a land invasion of Venezuela? Find the quote. No loving joke you’re the slanderer. It takes a special kind of psychosis to be privileged enough to demand that John Bolton burn your beloved Venezuela to the ground while you sit in safety across an ocean. All because someone has to do something, even if a few poor hundred thousand poor people have to end up in shallow graves. How about a brief survey of your chickenhawk bullshit: fnox posted:I want you to do something. Something. Anything. There was a time where democratic transitions could have occurred, it got squandered the moment it got converted into a so called dialogue, because it didn’t involve anything that would compel Maduro to do anything. This crisis has been going on since 2014. It’s been five years of negligence. In this memorable post, you weepily lament that Maduro must be removed through force due to the inaction of "the left", hoping no one notices you furiously jacking off to photos of Abrams tanks. It was never adequately explained why you blame the entirely powerless international left for Maduro, but I suspect it has something to do with being a polo-clad gusano who dreams of owning a chain of car dealerships in a Free Capitalist Venezuela. fnox posted:Because the alternative is about as poo poo and it’s already been tried, we both know things are not gonna get better this way, so I’d rather take the coin toss. It could go well, or it could end up worse. Would you rather die of the disease or of the cure? Extremely not insane of you to refer to the threat of US invasion as a "coin toss", and not an atrocity. Also cool to note that in your metaphor here, you are not the one dying of either the "disease" or the "cure", but you are more than happy to insist that everyone living in Venezuela should take those bullets for you. fnox posted:Who is saying that there isn’t an interest in directly overthrowing Maduro? There isn’t a way to do it anymore, not by civilians. The only way to get anywhere would be through an agreement between government and opposition, which is unlikely. Listen folks, I know I've been saying that I'm not lusting for blood to fill the streets, but let me carefully explain why this is actually the only option left. It's regretful really! fnox posted:Yeah dude, nobody wants Abrams to nuke Venezuela. What the gently caress do we do to stop Maduro from killing people? What do you do? The Venezuelan citizens can’t fight him alone. I'm not saying that America should declare war, but maybe some sort "police action". Just to help restore order, destroy key infrastructure and level Caracas, fnox posted:I legitimately don’t see how some of you can continue to shout about hypothetical future death squads while paying absolutely no mind to the current ones that exist in the country. You’re telling the Venezuelan people, who are living in terror of a tyrannical military government, to suck it up. Do you realize how ridiculous it sounds to make a moralist argument while defending a government that kills, arrests and tortures indiscriminately? "hypothetical" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here lol. But sometimes you gotta bread a few hundred thousand eggs to achieve democracy. Hopefully the pro-business US puppet government will even lead to the first ever Panera in Venezuela, what a delight! I'm sure once fast casual dining can be enjoyed by all you'll finally be ready to return home, you loving coward. An unrelated fun fact is remembering your endorsement of the Pinochet regime, and then your continued doubling down about it, despite all those pesky facts. It's kinda weird how you are extremely sympathetic to murderous right wing military dictatorships! fnox posted:Maduro is worse than Pinochet by any metric. loving, please, find me one thing that Maduro has done right, one. fnox posted:Maduro is worse than Pinochet. That's how you interpret it.
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Aug 14, 2019 18:52
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punk rebel ecks posted:If Venezuela pre-sanctions was an 8/10 in terms of fuckedupness, then Venezuela post-sanctions would be a 9/10. Still making things worse but nowhere near the cataclysmic "this is the reason why Venezuela is really messed up and the PSUV is innocent" that Condiv was implying. It doesn't mess things up more. It does make it impossible to fix. Like what happened when the British embargoed Ireland when the famine hit. Multiplying effect. A crisis is extended and made unresolvable through foreign pressure until the government falls to a designated proxy. E: or in the case of the Irish, enough people are dead to make resistance trivial.
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Aug 14, 2019 18:55
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If you’re Maduro, though, and you’re looking at exile in Cuba/China/Russia or a nice trip to The Hague after you step down voluntarily, what’s going to convince you that your best course of action isn’t to just ride it out as long as possible?
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Aug 14, 2019 19:09
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Ron Paul Atreides posted:It doesn't mess things up more. It does make it impossible to fix. Like what happened when the British embargoed Ireland when the famine hit. Multiplying effect. A crisis is extended and made unresolvable through foreign pressure until the government falls to a designated proxy. Could you explain to me why the sanctions make Venezuela economic and infastructure reform impossible?
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Aug 14, 2019 19:14
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So what you’re saying Slanderer is that you cannot find a single instance of me advocating any sort of ground invasion of Venezuela, now can you? I mean, let’s ignore how you’re calling me psychotic when you spent probably a couple hours going through my post looking for as many quotes you could take out of of context as you can, or the utter loving drivel that you’re saying about car dealerships. You literally cannot find one instance of me saying “I want a military invasion of Venezuela”, can you?
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Aug 14, 2019 19:19
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fnox posted:So what you’re saying Slanderer is that you cannot find a single instance of me advocating any sort of ground invasion of Venezuela, now can you? I mean, let’s ignore how you’re calling me psychotic when you spent probably a couple hours going through my post looking for as many quotes you could take out of of context as you can. You literally cannot find one instance of me saying “I want a military invasion of Venezuela”. Well, now they can. More seriously, Fnox, I do want to say that I genuinely appreciate your perspective on this issue, and I'm glad you and your family are at least relatively safe for now. Keeshhound fucked around with this message at 19:37 on Aug 14, 2019 |
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Aug 14, 2019 19:21
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fnox posted:So what you’re saying Slanderer is that you cannot find a single instance of me advocating any sort of ground invasion of Venezuela, now can you? I mean, let’s ignore how you’re calling me psychotic when you spent probably a couple hours going through my post looking for as many quotes you could take out of of context as you can, or the utter loving drivel that you’re saying about car dealerships. You literally cannot find one instance of me saying “I want a military invasion of Venezuela”, can you? What do you want?
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Aug 14, 2019 19:24
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punk rebel ecks posted:I will concur that while the sanctions haven't made things worse for Venezuela, they could make things much more difficult or impossible to fix. Those kinds of reforms need resources to implement. Like the 4 billion in gold the US has blocked from returning from the bank of England, just as an example. That said, the Maduro government has not indicated it would take the steps to fix things if it could as of right now, I won't pretend they would be fixing things instantly if there were no sanctions. But perhaps things could have been stabilized or at least not let deteriorate to this point? Who knows. We exist in the world where the US, seeing economic vulnerability, moved to make things worse for their foreign policy objectives. That bolsters Maduro's narrative, which helps him hold power. Ron Paul Atreides fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Aug 14, 2019 |
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Aug 14, 2019 19:36
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Ron Paul Atreides posted:Those kinds of reforms need resources to implement. Like the 4 billion in gold the US has blocked from returning from the bank of England, just as an example. I agree with all of this. Great post.
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Aug 14, 2019 19:43
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punk rebel ecks posted:I agree with all of this. Great post. Typos and all lol E: just to sum up my central point; US policy centered around enhancing pain for the Venezuelans and overtly signalling their support of opposition with the promise of better outcomes for acquiescence is the exact bully mentality that has NEVER WORKED in resolving a crisis. Its resulted in a civil war almost everytime, except in cases where the military flips at which point wanton murder and brutality that follow. Either way, the point of the policy is not to resolve things. It's to create a war that needs to be fought to feed the insane US war apparatus, even as that apparatus begins to break down like it is now. The particulars of Maduro as a leader are really better left to Venezuelans to figure out. But those calling for foreign intervention are fools, this will not end well for anyone in that scenario. It's magical thinking that ignores everything about the last 50 years of the US politcal agenda. Ron Paul Atreides fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Aug 14, 2019 |
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Aug 14, 2019 19:46
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fnox posted:So what you’re saying Slanderer is that you cannot find a single instance of me advocating any sort of ground invasion of Venezuela, now can you? I mean, let’s ignore how you’re calling me psychotic when you spent probably a couple hours going through my post looking for as many quotes you could take out of of context as you can, or the utter loving drivel that you’re saying about car dealerships. You literally cannot find one instance of me saying “I want a military invasion of Venezuela”, can you? No, that was all in context lol. Stop lying, we can all read what you said you pathetic worm.
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Aug 14, 2019 19:52
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Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:What do you want? I’ve already said I want elections, and the immediate removal of Maduro. Preferably, that he just jumps on a plane and fucks off forever like Marcos Perez Jimenez. General elections with a new CNE and careful international observation, I don’t care who runs. Slanderer posted:No, that was all in context lol. Stop lying, we can all read what you said you pathetic worm. Lol. So I’ve never actually said the thing you claimed I literally said. Not have I ever come close to it.
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Aug 14, 2019 19:58
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fnox posted:Lol. So I’ve never actually said the thing you claimed I literally said. Not have I ever come close to it. Please re-read your own posts, thanks 
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Aug 14, 2019 20:03
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fnox posted:I’ve already said I want elections, and the immediate removal of Maduro. Preferably, that he just jumps on a plane and fucks off forever like Marcos Perez Jimenez. General elections with a new CNE and careful international observation, I don’t care who runs. But fnox, you said the time for a peaceful transition and democracy were over. You said the Venezuelan can't fight Maduro alone. You said that civilians cant fight him. What do you actually want, worm?
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Aug 14, 2019 20:05
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fnox posted:
Cmon man.
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Aug 14, 2019 20:07
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fnox posted:I’ve already said I want elections, and the immediate removal of Maduro. Preferably, that he just jumps on a plane and fucks off forever like Marcos Perez Jimenez. General elections with a new CNE and careful international observation, I don’t care who runs. Obviously. That comes after the land invasion you say you don't want. What I'm asking is, in lieu of a land invasion by the United States, what is it that you want to happen to achieve this goal?
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Aug 14, 2019 20:09
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Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:Obviously. That comes after the land invasion you say you don't want. What I'm asking is, in lieu of a land invasion by the United States, what is it that you want to happen to achieve this goal? "Elections can only happen after an American invasion" is a weird take.
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Aug 14, 2019 20:16
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Rent-A-Cop posted:A general strike could probably force an election if there's enough economic activity in Venezuela left that a strike even matters. Resident warmonger fnox has already shot down that idea, sorry fnox posted:A general strike is supposed to do what? The economy relies on oil exportation, if that isn’t disrupted the government can always chug along. That was attempted after the 2002 coup attempt, the government has learned that lesson early on and has taken measures to prevent that by stacking PDVSA with loyalists, at a severe cost in productivity.
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Aug 14, 2019 20:17
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Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:Obviously. That comes after the land invasion you say you don't want. What I'm asking is, in lieu of a land invasion by the United States, what is it that you want to happen to achieve this goal? Let me ask you this. Should Maduro be removed from power? Should he step down? Also yes, a general strike wouldn’t work, it’s already been tried, and the people depend on handouts by the state. They can barely work as is. Ron Paul Atreides posted:Cmon man. Look, a maniac went through my posts furiously trying to find the quote, and he couldn’t. It’s because I literally have never said, “I want a US invasion”. It’s these obsessive idiots from CSPAM who are saying that. fnox fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Aug 14, 2019 |
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Aug 14, 2019 20:21
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fnox posted:Why are you immediately jumping to the most extreme answer? I’ve never suggested a land invasion, gently caress no, I’ve said that’d be an unmitigated disaster. Maduro needs to be pressured into leaving, there’s a dozen ways to achieve this, and they necessarily require international pressure because he can ignore the will of the people right now and because the military is heavily involved in the crimes he’s committed. It wasn't a strike. It was a lockout by management. And yeah haven't directly said it, you've just obliquely indicated its the only option while feigning that wasn't what you meant. It's fairly transparent,especially given the current realities of the situation being discussed. E; lol honestly taking the 2002 lockout as indication a general labour strike wouldn't have worked is just weird. What were your thoughts on Chavez during the good years Fnox? Out of curiosity Ron Paul Atreides fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Aug 14, 2019 |
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Aug 14, 2019 20:28
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Ron Paul Atreides posted:It wasn't a strike. It was a lockout by management. It’s not the only option. And it’s just the truth is that civilians can’t fight Maduro, this has been true for a while, it’s crazy to demand that people go out into the streets and fight Maduro at this stage, he’s just going to continue arbitrarily arresting, torturing them and vanishing them without consequence as he has for 6 years. 2002 is the only time where the oil industry has actually participated in a strike against the government. Several general strikes have been attempted since, recently too, without oil it might as well be a day off, the government doesn’t care. Additionally, people are too poor to afford food, they can’t afford to be without money. It won’t work. fnox fucked around with this message at 20:38 on Aug 14, 2019 |
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Aug 14, 2019 20:34
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"Something must be done, and a peaceful solution is no longer an option, and Venezuelan civilians changing the country domestically is no longer an option!" "OK so you want a foreign power to come in with a violent solution?" "Omg no I never said that, how dare you, anyway something must be done and here's why nothing short of that will work."
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Aug 14, 2019 21:04
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fnox posted:Look, a maniac went through my posts furiously trying to find the quote, and he couldn’t. It’s because I literally have never said, “I want a US invasion”. It’s these obsessive idiots from CSPAM who are saying that. Ah, you don't *want* a US invasion, yet you attack any other alternative as impossible. Because you want a US invasion you ghoul.
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Aug 14, 2019 21:07
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VitalSigns posted:"Something must be done, and a peaceful solution is no longer an option, and Venezuelan civilians changing the country domestically is no longer an option!" Criticize me all you want about this. The reason why I'm saying that a peaceful solution involving Venezuelan civilians only pressuring Maduro from the inside is no longer viable, because very literally all constitutional forms of doing so have been exhausted. Protests have been attempted, they've been violently quelled. The reason why there doesn't seem to be an efficient opposition in the country anymore is because Maduro has been ruthless at taking out all of the mid level guys. Not Guaido, not the top guys, everyone below who won't make a big splash in the press. Remember Edgar Zambrano? He's still in loving jail. Let's put the ball in your court then. What happens after sanctions are removed? What replaces that? How does that end the Venezuelan crisis? Slanderer posted:Ah, you don't *want* a US invasion, yet you attack any other alternative as impossible. Because you want a US invasion you ghoul. I've never actually interacted with you before, have I? I mean half of you CSPAM posters might as well blur together since you use the exact same vocabulary. I thought you were upset over something I said to you, but no, you're just foaming at the mouth over something I've never said. fnox fucked around with this message at 21:17 on Aug 14, 2019 |
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Aug 14, 2019 21:14
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There are a lot of venezuelans inmigrants where I live who are extremely against Maduro and the reason most of them supported US sanctions is because they thought it would be final push for the ousting of Maduro, the one thing that would make the military leaders flip; no one really wanted a long embargo and the suffering of their families. What's happening right now is the worse scenario for them, Maduro still in power and US hawks thinking about war
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Aug 14, 2019 21:20
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Pacho posted:There are a lot of venezuelans inmigrants where I live who are extremely against Maduro and the reason most of them supported US sanctions is because they thought it would be final push for the ousting of Maduro, the one thing that would make the military leaders flip; no one really wanted a long embargo and the suffering of their families. What's happening right now is the worse scenario for them, Maduro still in power and US hawks thinking about war Oh absolutely. Nobody is happy with Guaido right now. This happens every single year, we're promised that this will be the last year for Maduro, so we push really hard around March/April to get him out. Then something big occurs around July/August. Then nothing until December. It's been literally 6 years straight of this, everyone's just so loving sick of politics, they're sick of it all and just want it to end so that the rebuild can finally begin.
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Aug 14, 2019 21:28
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Fnox, what do you mean by "international pressure"? What do you want the United States and other countries to do to put pressure on the PSUV?
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Aug 14, 2019 21:50
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Slanderer posted:Ah, you don't *want* a US invasion, yet you attack any other alternative as impossible. Because you want a US invasion you ghoul. I don't think he wants the invasion, just doesn't have the will to actually acknowledged that power has to be grasped and risk accepted if the goals he wants are to be achieved. For example: fnox posted:And it's just the truth is that civilians can't fight Maduro, this has been true for a while, it's crazy to demand that people go out into the streets and fight Maduro at this stage, he's just going to continue arbitrarily arresting, torturing them and vanishing them without consequence as he has for 6 years. So then if the opposition isn't particularly strongly united, outside of their opposition to Maduro, then the different groups naturally think going nuclear and forcing the governments hand, through strike or more drastic means, is like throwing individual eggs at a wall. So the only real option is to invite in, more then they are already present, U.S. hegemonic interest to stop what they see as the hemorrhaging state of the Venezuelan nation. Homeless Friend fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Aug 14, 2019 |
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Aug 14, 2019 22:26
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fnox posted:Why are you immediately jumping to the most extreme answer? I’ve never suggested a land invasion, gently caress no, I’ve said that’d be an unmitigated disaster. Maduro needs to be pressured into leaving, there’s a dozen ways to achieve this, and they necessarily require international pressure because he can ignore the will of the people right now and because the military is heavily involved in the crimes he’s committed. What pressure? Examining the most extreme answer is important. No one starts out advocating for an invasion. How far do you want the US to go? You're clearly OK with sanctions. What else? Suppose it doesn't work, and Maduro remains. What then? Do you give up? Do the "pressures" ever stop? fnox posted:Let me ask you this. Should Maduro be removed from power? Should he step down? No. He's the president. He was elected. The constitutional basis for Guaido's fake presidency is a load of horseshit. And I don't see why anyone would be willing to step down from power and not also be willing to hold a free and fair election they might lose.
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Aug 14, 2019 23:49
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punk rebel ecks posted:Fnox, what do you mean by "international pressure"? What do you want the United States and other countries to do to put pressure on the PSUV? Yeah this is pretty important to clarify
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Aug 15, 2019 00:05
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fnox posted:Criticize me all you want about this. The reason why I'm saying that a peaceful solution involving Venezuelan civilians only pressuring Maduro from the inside is no longer viable, because very literally all constitutional forms of doing so have been exhausted. Protests have been attempted, they've been violently quelled. The reason why there doesn't seem to be an efficient opposition in the country anymore is because Maduro has been ruthless at taking out all of the mid level guys. Not Guaido, not the top guys, everyone below who won't make a big splash in the press. Remember Edgar Zambrano? He's still in loving jail. fnox posted:Let's put the ball in your court then. What happens after sanctions are removed? What replaces that? How does that end the Venezuelan crisis? Foreign aid to feed and provide for people and stabilize the economy. That sounds better to me than cutting off food imports as leverage to force Venezuela to sell off its industries to foreign interests for pennies on the dollar.
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Aug 15, 2019 00:17
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VitalSigns posted:Foreign aid to feed and provide for people and stabilize the economy. Food imports aren’t cut off and Maduro wasn’t allowing any humanitarian aid until earlier this year, after sanctions were imposed. China owns most of the Venezuelan debt, so they’re the ones who want to profit on this crisis.
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Aug 15, 2019 00:34
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Even if he wasn't letting in humanitarian aid earlier, that's not an argument against sending humanitarian aid now. And lol at the implication that the US or at least influential US companies don't profit from US interventions in Latin America. The US just installed all those brutal right-wing governments out of the goodness of their hearts right
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Aug 15, 2019 00:37
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VitalSigns posted:Even if he wasn't letting in humanitarian aid earlier, that's not an argument against sending humanitarian aid now. It’s a brutal left wing government in Venezuela. The US didn’t install it.
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Aug 15, 2019 01:09
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