Let's Read: "Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality"

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > Let's Read: "Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality"

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Cardiovorax: Jun 5, 2011; I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

Grace Baiting posted:

You know how some apologies/confessions are much more for assuaging the conscience of the wrongdoer, not for showing genuine contrition nor setting up an authentic attempt at repairing any damage? Such performative apologies are also typically for forcing the onus of forgiveness onto the aggrieved or injured party.

Well this confession appears to be most of that, although with no expectation of forgiveness (memory wipes mean never having to face the music*!!), so it's just Harriezer executing this absolution-granting ritual of confession with zero consequences that make it mean anything. But I bet Harriezer feels better for having done it -- and that's what matters, since he is the godhead protagonist / authorial player character.

Makes perfect sense for his established personality, I'll say that much.

# ? Jul 30, 2019 14:39

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# ? Jun 7, 2024 10:17

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

Tiggum posted:

Chapter 120: Something to Protect: Draco Malfoy

I wanted to wait with this until we actually finish the loving thing, but why bother.

Let's start adding up all the theoretically interesting / important sub-plots and themes that went absolutely nowhere.

1. Redeeming Draco loving Malfoy. Possibly the biggest subplot in the whole damned thing. Gone. Completely irrelevant.

If I had more time and effort to invest, I would try to come up with a better ending to these things. As it stands, I invite the thread to do so.

Xander77 fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Aug 5, 2019

# ? Aug 2, 2019 09:13

YaketySass: Jan 15, 2019; Blind Idiot Dog

Xander77 posted:

1. Redeeming Draco loving Malfoy. Possibly the biggest subplot in the whole damned thing. Gone. Completely irrelevant.

It's pretty fitting how our lesswrong's self-insert spent so much effort trying to "redeem" the fash kid with money and influence (while ignoring all the boring normies like Ron), only for that plotline to be a giant wet fart.

# ? Aug 2, 2019 11:34

Epicurius: Apr 10, 2010; College Slice

I honestly don't remember, how does this story treat Ron? Because the Weasleys are frankly pretty drat awesome, Ron is a loveable fuckup, his dad is a doofus, his mom isn't afraid to kick rear end, his siblings are all annoying in just the right ways, and the family is collectively some of the best and most likeable characters in the book.

# ? Aug 2, 2019 12:33

Doctor Spaceman: Jul 6, 2010; "Everyone's entitled to their point of view, but that's seriously a weird one."

Epicurius posted:

I honestly don't remember, how does this story treat Ron?

Who?

# ? Aug 2, 2019 12:37

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

Epicurius posted:

I honestly don't remember, how does this story treat Ron? Because the Weasleys are frankly pretty drat awesome, Ron is a loveable fuckup, his dad is a doofus, his mom isn't afraid to kick rear end, his siblings are all annoying in just the right ways, and the family is collectively some of the best and most likeable characters in the book.

IIRC Ron is briefly mentioned as a moron who is beneath Harry's notice.

# ? Aug 2, 2019 13:04

Epicurius: Apr 10, 2010; College Slice

Doctor Spaceman posted:

Who?

Aww. Somebody else pointed out, and it's true, that this story treats intelligence as the only positive trait worth having; not loyalty, or hard work, or compassion, or charm, or physical prowess. You've either "smart", as defined by Yud, or worthless in his eyes, and I'd you are smart, you don't need anything else. As somebody who's pretty stupid myself, this makes me sad.

# ? Aug 2, 2019 13:05

YaketySass: Jan 15, 2019; Blind Idiot Dog

IIRC he distinguishes himself at some point during the ~~Ender's Game~~ student battles arc but that's about it.

# ? Aug 2, 2019 14:24

Grace Baiting: Jul 20, 2012; Audi famam illius;
Cucurrit quaeque
Tetigit destruens.

Higher INT Score = Better Than

Yes this is reductive and (it turns out!) super inaccurate to the real world -- "intelligence" is incoherent as a singular concept/attribute... but INT �ber Alles is the ~~hellworld we live in~~ hellfic we inflict upon ourselves !!

# ? Aug 2, 2019 15:30

Plorkyeran: Mar 22, 2007; To Escape The Shackles Of The Old Forums, We Must Reject The Tribal Negativity He Endorsed

Tiggum posted:

IIRC Ron is briefly mentioned as a moron who is beneath Harry's notice.

Even worse. It�s like �I don�t see any reason for people like him to exist.� which is pretty big yikes.

# ? Aug 10, 2019 23:12

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

Chapter 121: Something to Protect: Severus Snape

McGonagall is trying to figure out what she needs to do next and is consulting with Harry about it for some reason, but both of them are too ~~close to the end of the story~~ tired to think properly. Then Snape walks in and says he's quitting. Which makes perfect sense since wasn't he only there in the first place to help Dumbledore pull off his big plan?

Eliezer Yudkowsky posted:

He knows. The thought came to Harry, and he couldn't have said in words just what the Potions Master now knew; except that it was clear that Severus knew it.

Sure. OK. He knows a thing that cannot be defined and this explains something.

Eliezer Yudkowsky posted:

"It is well to find you here, Mr. Potter," Severus said. "There is unfinished business between us."

Harry didn't know what to say, so he just nodded.

...

The former Potions Master kept his eyes on Harry. "More than one bar lay between myself and Lily, most notably my ill-advised attempts to curry favor with the purebloods of my house. If I made it sound like one mistake upon a muddy field ended it all, if I pretended that she had no reason but shallowness not to love me, I hope your books have also told you why fools may say such things."

...

"Perhaps," said the former Potions Master. "My final duty was to fail in guarding the Stone, to be struck down. This I have done, and I survived it, which I never expected to do." Severus was leaning against the door through which he'd entered, taking his weight off his left leg. "I would not have thought to ask for your forgiveness, but since you offer it so freely, I will accept with thanks. From this day on I wish to take less unkindly ways, and I think that is best done by starting over."

...

"I do have one last piece of advice," Harry said. "If you want it."

"What is it?" said Severus Snape.

"Ruminating about the past can contribute to depression. You have my blanket permisson to just never think about your past, ever. You shouldn't think that it's your responsibility to Lily to bear your guilt for her, or anything like that. Just keep your mind on your future and whatever new people you meet."

"I shall take your wisdom into consideration," Severus said neutrally.

"Also, try a different brand of hair shampoo."

A wry grin crossed Severus's face, and Harry thought it might have been, for the first time, that man's true smile. "Drop dead, Potter."

Quoted just so I'm not the only one who had to read it. That is some atrocious dialogue.

Eliezer Yudkowsky posted:

and that was the last that anyone ever heard of Severus Snape.

# ? Aug 12, 2019 12:45

Cardiovorax: Jun 5, 2011; I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

quote:

"I shall take your wisdom into consideration," Severus said neutrally.

"Also, try a different brand of hair shampoo."

A wry grin crossed Severus's face, and Harry thought it might have been, for the first time, that man's true smile. "Drop dead, Potter."

Gotta admit, that made me laugh.

# ? Aug 13, 2019 21:04

TheGreatEvilKing: Mar 28, 2016

Regarding Ron...Ron is actually pretty smart. He's literally a chess master and is able to keep up with the other students while being handicapped by malfunctioning wands.

This is of course ignoring that Ron is a brave and loyal friend who puts his life on the line for Harry, helps him when he's down, and can be confided it but of course The Math Petter doesn't understand that because that's not something he could ever provide.

# ? Aug 14, 2019 03:11

Tunicate: May 15, 2012

also Ron thinks divination is bullshit but has a 100% success rating whenever he tries it

nobody ever comments on this

# ? Aug 14, 2019 03:20

Cardiovorax: Jun 5, 2011; I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

I mean, the books are pretty forthright about admitting that being a chess prodigy isn't actually the same thing as being smart and that Ron mostly gets carried through the curriculum by having more diligent friends who do a lot of the work for him... but at the same time, he is also probably one of the most realistically portrayed characters in the series in that he is a shithead teenager who eventually gets over himself and demonstrates that having valuable personal virtues and being worthy of respect is not actually the same thing as being arbitrarily "intelligent" and rational by the standards of a high school dropout and internet con-man.

# ? Aug 14, 2019 03:24

V. Illych L.: Apr 11, 2008; ASK ME ABOUT LUMBER

Cardiovorax posted:

I mean, the books are pretty forthright about admitting that being a chess prodigy isn't actually the same thing as being smart and that Ron mostly gets carried through the curriculum by having more diligent friends who do a lot of the work for him... but at the same time, he is also probably one of the most realistically portrayed characters in the series in that he is a shithead teenager who eventually gets over himself and demonstrates that having valuable personal virtues and being worthy of respect is not actually the same thing as being arbitrarily "intelligent" and rational by the standards of a high school dropout and internet con-man.

he's not a hyper-genius and is pretty realistically a younger-son style of slacker, but he's never portrayed as anything else than a reasonably bright chap

he's not clever enough to just breeze through with high marks without any effort and he's not diligent enough to apply that effort unless especially motivated (as with chess), but he does reasonably well. hermione's super power isn't that she's particularly much smarter, but that she's structured and willing to apply herself fully to studying magic for the sake of it

of course, being 'smart' is an enormously complicated thing anyway and is largely learned, but there's no indication that ron has a lower natural iq than e.g. hermione. the reason he gets snubbed by these books is because he represents a rejection of a particular kind of ideology which takes having a high iq a virtue and means that it is only moral to learn to think in such a way as to increase one's iq scores (roughly)

# ? Aug 14, 2019 08:52

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

V. Illych L. posted:

the reason he gets snubbed by these books is because he represents a rejection of a particular kind of ideology which takes having a high iq a virtue and means that it is only moral to learn to think in such a way as to increase one's iq scores (roughly)

I think it's simpler than that. He's obviously a moron because he likes ~~football~~ quidditch.

# ? Aug 14, 2019 09:12

Cardiovorax: Jun 5, 2011; I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

V. Illych L. posted:

he's not a hyper-genius and is pretty realistically a younger-son style of slacker, but he's never portrayed as anything else than a reasonably bright chap

"Reasonably bright" is a fairly fuzzy term, though. As far as I can tell, he's supposed to be (and legitimately comes across) as perfectly average. Certainly not stupid, but not particularly bright, either. Being the normal everyperson type character who gets by not on inborn talent or by being the chosen one of destiny, but rather through sheer determination to keep trying anyway and not let the people who need him dow, that is what always thought was his intended role - and I think he fits the bill for that very well.

# ? Aug 14, 2019 12:42

Epicurius: Apr 10, 2010; College Slice

I mean, the same is true of Harry, generally. Unlike in this story, Rowling's Harry is a fairly average student. It's Hermione who's the swot.

# ? Aug 14, 2019 14:14

Cardiovorax: Jun 5, 2011; I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

He has the whole Nation Hero Chosen One Slash Sportsball Prodigy thing going for himself, though. Ron's inferiority complex from being basically just a guy and surrounded by greater talents both in his family and his circle of friends is, like, the focus of the entire first quarter of the book with the tournament in it.

# ? Aug 14, 2019 14:24

Doctor Spaceman: Jul 6, 2010; "Everyone's entitled to their point of view, but that's seriously a weird one."

Cardiovorax posted:

He has the whole Nation Hero Chosen One Slash Sportsball Prodigy thing going for himself, though. Ron's inferiority complex from being basically just a guy and surrounded by greater talents both in his family and his circle of friends is, like, the focus of the entire first quarter of the book with the tournament in it.

Also a major part of Book 6 where Ron actually gets a bit of fame and success.

# ? Aug 14, 2019 14:29

Sit on my Jace: Sep 9, 2016

Tiggum posted:

I think it's simpler than that. He's obviously a moron because ~~he likes football~~ ~~quidditch~~ his family is poor.

# ? Aug 15, 2019 08:53

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

Chapter 122: Something to Protect: Hermione Granger

Eliezer Yudkowsky posted:

In the room below, connected to the rooftop by a simple wooden ladder, was Harry's new office inside Hogwarts. A wide room, surrounded by full-wall windows on four sides for sunlight; currently bare of furnishings but for four chairs and a desk. Harry had told Headmistress McGonagall what he was looking for, and Headmistress McGonagall had put on the Sorting Hat and then told Harry the series of twists and turns that would take him where he wanted to be. High enough in Hogwarts that the castle shouldn't have been that tall, high enough in Hogwarts that nobody looking from the outside would see a piece of castle corresponding to where Harry now sat. It seemed like an elementary precaution against snipers that there was no reason not to take.

Snipers? And why the gently caress does an 11-year-old have an office?

Eliezer Yudkowsky posted:

The prophecy Dumbledore's letter had mentioned about him tearing apart the stars in heaven... well, that sounded optimistic. That part had an obvious interpretation to anyone who'd grown up with the right sort of upbringing. It described a future where humanity had won, more or less. It wasn't what Harry usually thought about when he gazed at the stars, but from a truly adult perspective, the stars were enormous heaps of valuable raw materials that had unfortunately caught fire and needed to be scattered and put out. If you were tapping the huge hydrogen-helium reservoirs for raw materials, that meant your species had successfully grown up.

That seems like a ludicrously difficult and inconvenient way to acquire resources if you've already solved the problem of travelling to (or bringing things back from) other star systems. There's planets and asteroids and poo poo that are all made of "valuable raw materials".

Eliezer Yudkowsky posted:

The thought came then to Harry of another work of fiction, more obscure than Tolkien:

You can only arrive at mastery by practicing the techniques you have learned, facing challenges and apprehending them, using to the fullest the tools you have been taught, until they shatter in your hands and you are left in the midst of wreckage absolute... I cannot create masters. I have never known how to create masters. Go, then, and fail... You have been shaped into something that may emerge from the wreckage, determined to remake your Art. I cannot create masters, but if you had not been taught, your chances would be less. The higher road begins after the Art seems to fail you; though the reality will be that it was you who failed your Art.

That quote didn't sound at all familiar to me and didn't seem particularly well-written or meaningful so I googled it to figure out what obscure author Yudkowsky had decided to reference. It's himself. Just when you think you've seen it all he pulls this in the final chapter. :psyduck:

Eliezer Yudkowsky posted:

Harry was aware on some level - no, he needed to stop being aware of things on some level and start just being aware of them - Harry was explicitly and consciously aware that he was ruminating about the Future mostly to distract himself from the imminent arrival of Hermione Granger.

Who is thinking this? What the gently caress does it mean? If you can make a decision to be consciously aware of something then you already are, aren't you?

Then Hermione shows up and they have a very tedious conversation recapping the last few chapters in which she consistently and repeatedly addresses him as "Mr. Potter", which I find incredibly irritating. Harry gives her the cloak of invisibility and then, after a conversation that seems like it's never going to end, they swear to be friends forever and that's it. It's over. We made it. Now let's never speak of it again.

# ? Aug 18, 2019 06:11

Qwertycoatl: Dec 31, 2008

Tiggum posted:

That seems like a ludicrously difficult and inconvenient way to acquire resources if you've already solved the problem of travelling to (or bringing things back from) other star systems. There's planets and asteroids and poo poo that are all made of "valuable raw materials".

It's a rationalist thing. The idea is that any energy not used to run computer simulations of happy people in the most efficient way is s tragic waste.

# ? Aug 18, 2019 06:51

Jazerus: May 24, 2011

well, here we are

what a long and pointless journey

# ? Aug 18, 2019 14:01

Cardiovorax: Jun 5, 2011; I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

It's been a long four years. Didn't think we'd make it, honestly.

# ? Aug 18, 2019 14:03

Jazerus: May 24, 2011

ending his propaganda fanfiction with a literal quote of himself trying to sound like the wise master in a ninja movie is pretty choice tho

# ? Aug 18, 2019 14:09

Cardiovorax: Jun 5, 2011; I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

Appropriately enough, too, because I vaguely remember this being from a literal fanfiction about himself as the wise master of a literal secret cult of Bayesian ninja illuminati.

# ? Aug 18, 2019 14:16

Skanker: Mar 21, 2013

The adventures of this precious child sucked and all I've learned is that I hate Yud!

# ? Aug 18, 2019 14:59

Grace Baiting: Jul 20, 2012; Audi famam illius;
Cucurrit quaeque
Tetigit destruens.

I can't believe we made it

well_done.avi

# ? Aug 18, 2019 15:05

Mikl: Nov 8, 2009; Vote shit sandwich or the shit sandwich gets it!

Congratulations, everyone! We survived.

# ? Aug 18, 2019 15:33

Doctor Spaceman: Jul 6, 2010; "Everyone's entitled to their point of view, but that's seriously a weird one."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6VjPM5CeWs

# ? Aug 18, 2019 15:58

TheGreatEvilKing: Mar 28, 2016

Now we are free.

# ? Aug 18, 2019 17:08

YaketySass: Jan 15, 2019; Blind Idiot Dog

Be sure to send your paycheck to MIRI, or whatever crackpot thing Yudkowsky is into these days.

# ? Aug 18, 2019 19:32

Grace Baiting: Jul 20, 2012; Audi famam illius;
Cucurrit quaeque
Tetigit destruens.

Doctor Spaceman posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6VjPM5CeWs

# ? Aug 18, 2019 19:33

Roadie: Jun 30, 2013

YaketySass posted:

Be sure to send your paycheck to MIRI, or whatever crackpot thing Yudkowsky is into these days.

Sorry, but all my free cash is already pegged for donations to fund basilisk development.

# ? Aug 18, 2019 23:26

Roadie: Jun 30, 2013

So I challenge you (or anyone) to exhibit any paragraph in HPMOR, and delete a sentence from it, in a way that makes it better. I�m sure I made some editing errors on the unnecessary-sentence level. But did you notice any?

# ? Aug 18, 2019 23:30

Cavelcade: Dec 9, 2015; I'm actually a boy!

Roadie posted:

So I challenge you (or anyone) to exhibit any paragraph in HPMOR, and delete a sentence from it, in a way that makes it better. I’m sure I made some editing errors on the unnecessary-sentence level. But did you notice any?

Take every paragraph and delete every sentence from it.

Give the thread back 4 years.

# ? Aug 19, 2019 00:48

Cardiovorax: Jun 5, 2011; I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

Hyperbole aside, any halfway decent professional editor would just cut out the entire "battle school" arc and rightly advise Yud that the story loses literally nothing from it.

# ? Aug 19, 2019 00:51

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# ? Jun 7, 2024 10:17

Fajita Queen: Jun 21, 2012

Well that sure was a thing that a person wrote as a monument to his own bloated ego, I guess.

# ? Aug 19, 2019 07:58

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > Let's Read: "Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality"

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